User talk:Cluckbang
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[edit] Sabaeans
I'll reply in full on your email if you'd like, but let me say something here first. The Saba myth has often been repeated, but it was not the beginning of Ethiopian civilization. Minor Sabaean migration in the 5th and 4th c. are postulated to occur (they weren't however, politically dominant, but living in some sort of military symbiosis or as traders), but they were absorbed by the already existing civilization within a few decades, or they returned to Yemen (Munro-Hay Aksum 1991). The civilization of D`mt, on the other hand, was from the 8th to 7th c. BCE, prior to any migration (which, as I said earlier, was minor). The theory you're referring to was postulated by an Italian historian named Conti Rossini, who was in general helpful in documenting Ethiopian history, but who tried to find as much foreign influence as he could do to his nationality and racism. The theory has since been disproved. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 17:32, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
- I saw that video a long time ago. It is from the 1960s or something like that, and it doesn't provide it's sources. I, however do. If you do not have a source for your claims, then do not revert. I will revert the text now, as you have not provided a source. Also, please edit under your user name, and not just under an IP. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 19:49, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] South Semitic Languge
Why is that Eritreans/Ethiopians speak a language that came from South Arabian dialect? How was that possible if they never intermingled with the Sabians? You can also see the close relationship with Yemen peoples. What about the Caucasionnes of Ethiopians and Eritreans? So ur saying that the Ethiopians let the documentary narrator say that? or are u saying he did it behind their backs. I mean come on, they cant just make up a lie. The Ethiopians werent forced to make the documentary by Fascist Italy.
Here are my sources: http://www.answers.com/topic/sabaean http://www.answers.com/topic/sheba (very important source)
- Sorry, but those are both mirrors of Wikipedia that have not been updated yet, not very decisive. Ge'ez is a South Semitic language, but it is not derived from Sabaean. See, e.g. Encyclopaedia Aethiopica: D-Ha. "Ge'ez," pp.732 by Stefan Weninger, or David Appleyard's "Ethiopian Semitic and South Arabian:Towards a Re-examination of a Relationship", Israel Oriental Studies 16, 1996, pp. 201-228. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 21:35, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
"The Imperial family of Ethiopia claims its origin directly from the offspring of King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba, who is named Makeda in the Ethiopian account. The Ethiopian epic history of kings, the Kebra Negast, is supposed to record the history of Makeda and her descendants. King Solomon is said in this account to have seduced the Queen, and sired a son by her, who would eventually become Menelik I, the first Emperor of Ethiopia. It is speculated that the ancient communities that evolved into the modern Ethiopian state were formed by the migration across the Red Sea of Semitic southern Arabians who intermarried with local non-Semitic peoples. Indeed, the ancient Ethiopian kingdom of Axum ruled much of Southern Arabia including Yemen until the rise of Islam in the 7th century, and both the indigenous languages of Southern Arabia and the Amharic and Tigrean languages of Ethiopia are South Semitic languages. Evidence of ancient Southern Arabian communities in modern day Ethiopia and Eritrea are widespread and include archeological artifacts and ancient Sabaean inscriptions in the old South Arabian alphabet. " This one is from this website : http://www.answers.com/topic/queen-of-sheba
Satisfied? Or do u want more sources?
- You really think a claim of a myth (which is probably what it is) proves that we're all Sabaeans? There are also peoples who claim that they came from the sky, do you believe them too? Archaeology is the best way to find out what's the truth, not 12th c. myths (when the Kibre Negest was written) about what happened 2,000 years ago. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 21:35, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Hi there
Check out your user page! - CobaltBlueTony 20:55, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Response
Where does it say that Ethiopians have Jewish blood? (that article that you cited by Megalomattis isn't a good source, I should warn you, as Megalomattis has extreme views like his view that all of the ancient Nubians got up and moved to Southern Ethiopia where they became the Oromo) They actually don't, to be accurate; even the Ethiopian Jews! See Beta Israel#DNA evidence. They have little in common with Jews in Israel, but they are close to Yemeni Jews since Yemenis and Ethiopians are already close ethnically (not from the Sabaean migration, but because of years of closeness in Geography; Yemen was the first place Out of Africa, and trade b/w the countries has been going on since time immemorial). As to "one man," what do you mean by this? I have provided several sources. If you mean my use of Munro-Hay on the Sabaean migration, that is because he is the most recent author in the field (and a foremost one). You'll notice that I also quoted Richard Pankhurst (another foremost Ethiopian historian) on this as well. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 21:00, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Sabaeans
Hello there Yom. I believe you are wrong and have been misled. Ethiopians are descendants of Sabeans who migrated first to the Eritrean/ Tigray region. Here is a link to a video and information. THis is what is says "Ethiopia is the oldest independent country in Sub Saharan Africa. The earliest evidence of Ethiopian history was in around 1000BC when the Queen of Sheba visited King Solomon. * The first recorded kingdom in Ethiopia grew around Axum during the 3rd century BC. Axum was an offshoot of the Semitic Sabeam kingdoms of southern Arabia, it became the greatest ivory market in the north east." http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6832088946086225375&q=ethiopia&pr=goog-sl. You have to atleast mention this fact!
Asside from Southern Arabia, the Sabaean kings ruled some parts of the East African coast where they established the Kingdom of Abyssinia (now Eritrea). THis is from the History of Yemen, u failed to mention the Kingdom of Saba at least once in the history of Eritrea and Ethiopia, this had a large influence on what is now Ethiopia and Eritrea. It is because mainly of them that the muslims could not invade Ethiopia and Eritrea!! Reply on my email Cluckbang 13:30, 24 June 2006
I'll reply in full on your email if you'd like, but let me say something here first. The Saba myth has often been repeated, but it was not the beginning of Ethiopian civilization. Minor Sabaean migration in the 5th and 4th c. are postulated to occur (they weren't however, politically dominant, but living in some sort of military symbiosis or as traders), but they were absorbed by the already existing civilization within a few decades, or they returned to Yemen (Munro-Hay Aksum 1991). The civilization of D`mt, on the other hand, was from the 8th to 7th c. BCE, prior to any migration (which, as I said earlier, was minor). The theory you're referring to was postulated by an Italian historian named Conti Rossini, who was in general helpful in documenting Ethiopian history, but who tried to find as much foreign influence as he could do to his nationality and racism. The theory has since been disproved. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 17:32, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Greatest Apologies Yom
Hello there Yom i was wondering if Ethiopians have any mix of Arab or Egyptian.... I was just curious b/c it seems that they have more caucasion than non-caucasion features. Also does the grandson of Haile Selassie have any power in Ethiopia? Is he still connected to the priest? Does he attend church ceremonies like in that documentary i told u about? Also i am very shocked that the story about the Yemenites migrating is a myth, I mean the ethiopian govt at the time the documentary accepted this? Why do u think they accepted this though. They dont know themselves? Also i read the changes you made to the article. You made a good compromise between both of us. Also what do u think of the sources from answers.com? u didnt share your opinion on those —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cluckbang (talk • contribs) 01:16, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Here's the rundown, since I get this a lot. The reasons Ethiopians look the way they do (i.e. thin noses, relatively straighter hair than other Africans, and lighter skin) isn't because of significant foreign admixture (though of course there is some, as there are in all populations), but because most non-African populations are derived from a small group of East Africans that left Africa. Most mountain populations have some sort of adaptation to the lack of oxygen (e.g. Andean natives have blood cells that carry more oxygen and Tibetans take more breaths per minute than other groups), but Ethiopians seem to have none. The reason for this is because the adaptations in Ethiopia are that of longer noses, which are more adapted to mountain climates as well as arid deserts (even though they are lowlands, they're arid and not humid, which is what makes the difference). Wide noses are an adaptation to more tropically climates where expelling humidity is necessary, hence the short and broad passages. In arid and mountain climates, however, where moisture must be preserved and the nostrils must be protected by sand, longer passages with thinner nostrils that lock in moisture and keep out sand (smaller nostrils, as well as more hair by way of longer passages) is a benefit. Non-African populations are generally derived from a small group of East Africans, which is why they tend to have straighter, longer, and more prominent noses. Answers.com is simply a mirror of Wikipedia.com, which means whatever the Wikipedia article says on the Queen of Sheba, answers.com says the same. The wikipedia article had no source for that section, or any part of the article, so I updated it with modern information and sources. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 01:47, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] One more question
The Imperial family of Ethiopia claims its origin directly from the offspring of King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba, who is named Makeda in the Ethiopian account. The Ethiopian epic history of kings, the Kebra Negast, is supposed to record the history of Makeda and her descendants. King Solomon is said in this account to have seduced the Queen, and sired a son by her, who would eventually become Menelik I, the first Emperor of Ethiopia. It is speculated that the ancient communities that evolved into the modern Ethiopian state were formed by the migration across the Red Sea of Semitic southern Arabians who intermarried with local non-Semitic peoples. Indeed, the ancient Ethiopian kingdom of Axum ruled much of Southern Arabia including Yemen until the rise of Islam in the 7th century, and both the indigenous languages of Southern Arabia and the Amharic and Tigrean languages of Ethiopia are South Semitic languages. Evidence of ancient Southern Arabian communities in modern day Ethiopia and Eritrea are widespread and include archeological artifacts and ancient Sabaean inscriptions in the old South Arabian alphabet.
What do u think of this paragraph? Is it inaccurate or am i seeing it from a wrong perspective. Sorry, this is the last question. By the great job on the article
It's inaccurate only if you take its claims as truth. The Imperial family really does believe that, and that is the traditional history of Ethiopia and the belief of a significant number of Ethiopians. The genetic and historical evidence, however, simply does not support it. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 01:53, 25 June 2006 (UTC) Also from reading the history of the History of Aksum it says: It has commonly been thought to be founded by Semitic-speaking Sabaeans who crossed the Red Sea from South Arabia (modern Yemen), but some scholars contend that it was an indigenous successor of the older D’mt or Da'amot kingdom, pointing to evidence of a Semitic speaking presence at least as early as 2000 BC, as well as evidence suggesting that Sabaean immigrants remained in Ethiopia for only a few decades. Aksum began to decline in the 7th century AD, and the population was forced to go farther inland to the highlands, eventually being defeated c. 950 AD. Ethiopian tradition holds that a Jewish Queen named Yodit (Judith) or "Gudit" (a play on "Yodit" meaning "evil") defeated the kingdom and burned its churches and literature, but while there is evidence of churches being burned around this time, there is some doubt as to whether she actually existed. Another possiblity is that the Axumite power was ended by a southern pagan queen named Bani al-Hamwiyah, possibly from of the tribe al-Damutah or Damoti (Sidama). After this period, the Axumite kingdom was succeeded by the Zagwe dynasty in the eleventh century or twelfth century, although limited in size and scope. However, Yekuno Amlak, who killed the last Zagwe king and founded the modern Solomonid dynasty traced his ancestry and his right to rule from the last king of Axum, Dil Na'od.
Can you say like this, instead of saying "it was thought/ believed...."? Since "some scholars contend" means that they are not 100% sure of who is right. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cluckbang (talk • contribs) 01:41, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
I've been meaning to fix that, actually. The ambiguousness there is because another editor refused to accept that the indigenous of Ethiopian civilization was fact and labeled it as a new theory, even though it was challenged beginning 50 years ago. I can note that there are a couple scholars who hold on to the old paradigm, but the evidence is overwhelmingly against them, especially because Ge'ez, the ancient Semitic language of Ethiopia is definitively not the descendent of the Sabaean language. Though it's useful to note more ambiguity in the Kingdom of Aksum article (even though the degree is still small), there's no need to go into such detail on the Eritrea article. There are many instances in history in all countries where there is ambiguity, but those must be reserved for the individual articles, as the Eritrea article would be huge if we described everything in detail. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 01:53, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Just a thought
Hello there Yom, I am not trying to argue with you again, but judging from your past, you seem to know alot about Ethiopian and Eritrean history. However, this is just a question, wouldnt it have been possible for many Yemenites to intermarry, and be assimilated the presnt region of Eritrea and Ethiopia, since it only takes a day to travel across the red sea on a canoe, and thus I am further asking if the theory that was made by Rossilini, who I agree was racist, kind of made sense, rather than making it a myth, since in the D'mt article you said that it was a Sabean word. Also unlike what you said, in some articles on wikipedia, they say that G'eez was developped from the South Arabian language. Also South Arabian languages exist in only three places, Eritrea, Ethiopia and Yemen, so there had to be some Sabean influence. Also this South Arabian expert that you spoke about, the woman, what more evidence does she have than the Rossilini (who was indeed racist)? That Archeologist however seems like he has got some good evidence though. Although you are right, there are still many resources, its still a debatable issue. I do however agree the compromise that you made with me by mentioning it. I thank you for that. Please read this article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cluckbang (talk • contribs) 23:42, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
http://www.kidusmichael.com/EthiopianChristianity.htm
I will mention that a few contemporary historians still believe the old theory, but only on the Aksum article where it is pertinent. As I said before, such detail isn't required on the main Eritrea page and if we go into that much detail on one small section like that, then there's no reason to not do so for the whole article. Now, it's not impossible for Yemenites to marry and assimilate, but that's probably not what happened. For one, the Sabaean presence is noted in only a few locations, and that presence is only noted for a few decades or a century (Munro-Hay 1991). D`mt wasn't a Sabaean word per se (I'm not sure which language it was written in), it was just written in the Sabaean alphabet. The alphabet may have indeed come from South Arabia to Ethiopia, though that's not certain either, and they both could have come from an earlier Proto-South Semitic alphabet that evolved into Sabaean and Ge'ez, or the Sabaean alphabet could be that Proto-South Semitic alphabet that evolved into later Sabaean forms in Yemen and Ge'ez in Ethiopia. Now, as to South Semitic Languages, they do exist in those three places you mentioned. South Arabian languages only exist in Yemen, however, which includes the island of Socotra. The Urheimat (homeland) of Proto-South Semitic is not known, but it must have either been Ethiopia or Yemen, without assigning any more likeliness in general to one or the other, if Ethiopia is the home of all Semitic languages, then it is more likely that they developed in Ethiopia. The woman you are talking about, Jacqueline Pirenne, has some theories varying from the mainstream in some areas, but the importance of her work is that it showed the short duration of the Sabaean migration in Ethiopia. The archaeologist, by whom I think you mean A.J. Drewes, also represents an important step in understanding what actually happened as he found Ge'ez graffiti (I believe both the alphabet in the language) from B.C. times (I believe c.500 BC?) as old as Sabaean graffiti, which discredits the notion that the Ge'ez alphabet came from Sabaean, though it is still not certain which came first or from what (see e.g. this interview with Dr. Getachew Haile). The one thing that's also very important in this, is that it's now certain that Ge'ez did not derive from Sabaean or an earlier form of it (see e.g. Encyclopaedia Aethiopica "Ge'ez" 2005 pg. 732; or David Appleyard's "Ethiopian Semitic and South Arabian:Towards a Re-examination of a Relationship", Israel Oriental Studies 16, 1996, pp. 201-228.; or any of the following: 1977. Language classification and the Semitic prehistory of Ethiopia. Folia Orientalia 18. 120-166. [Obscure]; or 1981. The Highland East Cushitic family vine. Sprache und Geschichte in Afrika 3. 94-121.; or 1994. A neglected Ethiopian contribution to Semitic and Afroasiatic reconstruction. Proceedings of the Twentieth Meeting of the Berkeley Linguistics Society, 47-56. Berkeley, CA: Berkeley Linguistics Society.) If you want more resources just ask. With regards to the link, I will read it, but you should always keep in mind that religious groups and people in Ethiopia are more likely to embrace the link with Sabaeans since they believe the Kibre Negest and the myth that the Queen of Sheba was an Ethiopia. While an Ethiopian queen of Sheba doesn't imply a Sabaean invasion, a Sabaean migration does make the connection with Sheba and therefore Israel stronger in their minds (Important in Ethiopia - see e.g. The Conquering Lion of Judah). — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 00:03, 26 June 2006 (UTC) Also, please sign your posts with for tildes like this : Cluckbang 21:58, 23 July 2006 (UTC) — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 00:15, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] THis is the link
http://www.american.edu/ted/ice/eritrea.htm
YOm this is the link i was talking about that i lost, i forgot to give it to you. This is where i got my main theory. There are many sources from there. Please tell me what you think of it Cluckbang 24:23, 25 June 2006
These are the sources they used: Hammer, Joshua. "Eritrea: Back From the Ruins." Newsweek. 26 Feb. 1996: 40. Cliffe, Lionel, and Basil Davidson. The Long Struggle of Eritrea. New Jersey: The Red Sea Press, 1988: 68. Neither of these is concerned primarily with what we're discussing. One is a Newsweek article, while the other is on the Eritrean Liberation front, so they aren't the best of sources in this debate. The sources I have given you are concerned primarily with Linguistics and whether or not Ge'ez is derived from South Arabian (and if Proto-Semitic originated in Ethiopia) and with Archaeology and ancient pre-Aksumite history. I'll be back to talk later, as I'll be busy for a little while. Please use four tildes, Cluckbang 21:58, 23 July 2006 (UTC), to sign your post, rather than putting brackets (meaning this: NAME) around your name, as it puts the date and a link to your username instead of the Wikipedia page called Cluckbang (i.e. what you're doing now puts a link to an article "Cluckbang" instead of your user page. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 00:30, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Demographics
I'll reply in full later. "Negroid" and "caucasoid" are not often used modern terms. What's used today is genetic lineages. Firstly, the main page is already pretty big and shouldn't be expanded much, but rather streamlined. So, instead, the info should go to Demographics of Ethiopia. Secondly, the "Caucasoid" lineages described in your link are, as I described before, E3b lineages and J lineages. The first originated in Ethiopia, so to call them Caucasoid would mean that all Africans with E lineages are caucasoid. Secondly, the J lineages described were spread by the Natufian culture, which was described as "Negroid." When they were first found in 1932, they were described thus:
- “Several features stand out quite definitely" he asserted; first the Natufians were a long-headed people - they had cap-shaped occiputs (the lower back part of the head). Secondly, the dimensions or their heads were greater than in the pre-dynastic Egyptians. Thirdly, their faces were short and wide. Fourthly, they were prognathous (with projecting jaws). Fifthly, their nasal bones were not narrow and high, but formed a wide, low arch. Sixthly, their chins were not prominent, but were masked by the fullness of the teeth-bearing parts of the jaw...
Also described by Larry Angel thus:
- Against this background of disease, movement and pedomorphic reduction of body size one can identify Negroid (Ethiopic or Bushmanoid?) traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters (McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers, probably from Nubia via the unknown predecesors of the Badarians and Tasians....
Note that above, "Ethiopic" does not refer to Ge'ez, or "Ethiopid," but simply another naming for "African," as "Ethiopia" used to have the connotations of all of "Black Africa."
Also check out this craniofacial map. The Natufians are much, much closer to the Congo and central African populations craniofacially than are Somali populations (a close approximation of Ethiopian populations, craniofacially).
Here's one more note from that article (note that they automatically assumed that because they were "Negroid" that they were cannibals, when in fact, it is now thought that the Natufian culture was the first to have agriculture):
- Seven or eight thousand years ago in what geologist call modern times a race of negroid cannibals lived In Palestine, burned the bones of their dead after burial, and devoured the bodies of their enemies.
Skulls and thighbones of this race were unearthed within the last four years, first at Shukbah near Jerusalem and later in caves at Mount Carmel, and because they puzzled the excavators who found them they received the new name “Natufians.” ...
- They were clearly a Negroid people, said Sir Arthur, with wide faces flat- noses and long large heads.
They were short of stature 5 feet 3 or 4 inches tall-and their thighs and legs were remarkably strong. While their arms and shoulders were weak.
I'll expand on this later. Regarding "Negroid" and "Semitic," "Semitic" as an ethnic group is very outdated, and no longer used. "Negroid" is going that way, although it is used by criminal anthropologists to try and determine race. Either way, "Semitic" only means a speaker of Semitic languages, of which any person can be a member, from East Asians, to Khoisan, to Central Africans. There are plenty of Black Arabs in Sudan, for example. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 22:26, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Your user page
Very nice! Odd, though that your Tigrinya language categories do not exist. I guess that's on your agenda as well? - CobaltBlueTony 20:08, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Clucjbang
Dear Coptic brother, its nice to see another person interested in Ancient ethiopia and orthodoxy. I am also interested in Coptic religion and Ethiopian history. We can co-operate if you want on coptic/ethiopian related articles. I made tons of photos and i own many historic photos of Ethiopia and we can use them freely. All the best. Ldingley 13:56, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
- Hi. That tag is a joke, I wish i was descendent of King Tut :) I don’t have Ethiopian background, im Scottish, English and French Canadian. I traveled to Copt country and Ethiopia many times. i added my photos on Copt and Coptic Christianity just yesterday. I agree with you on Eastern Orthodoxy, we should definitely add that. How about is we create an article about Copt people? example: Georgian people, Armenians and People of Ethiopia. Let me know. All the best. Ldingley 14:18, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Etiops
It is mentioned, on the main page of Ethiopia, unless it was deleted sometime. I created the article "Book of Aksum" that mentioned Ityoppis. It's just a 15th century work, though. I have also responded at my talk page on the Sabaean issue, since the discussion is already there. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 04:37, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] History
I think I gave undue weight to the last hypothesis. Megalommatis is literally the only historian with that view, and he's very controversial with some very "out-there" views. I will incorporate this version (without Megalommatis) to the Eritrea article. The specific history articles, however, require a more detailed explanation, in which I'll include a casual mention of non-mainstream views like those of Megalommatis. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 01:34, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
I wanted to ask you, have there been any ethiopian related articles in the mainpage before? Cluckbang 18:24, 13 August 2006 (UTC)Cluckbang
- No, not yet. I'm working on getting some articles to FA status, though. I probably won't write the Ottoman article for about a month when I have access to my paper again. Regarding Ethiopia and Eritrea, though. I am going to remove the part about Megalommatis. I know that I wrote that section, but I realized after that it shouldn't actually be included in the main article. Please talk on the talk page and get consensus before re-inserting the information. Look at the wording of the sentence. "A very small minority," (which you agree is the case) shows that it's probably not substantial enough to include. You say that just because Megalommatis has theories that are kooky his views on Yemen and Ethiopia shouldn't be disregarded, but really almost all of his ideas are not supported by mainstream scholars. If you want to convince me to include the data, please show me a contemporary scholar who isn't seen as a crackpot by mainstream historians who believes in this theory. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 19:11, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] WikiProject Yemen
Merhaba and Welcome to WikiProject Yemen. We are happy that you joined us. If you have any questions, need help on something, or suggestions, then please don't hesitate to tell us. Cheers, Jidan 20:13, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] eritrea
The area now called Eritrea has played an important role in the the region we now know as Ethiopia. As an enclave on the coast of the Red Sea coast, a major trade route since ancient times, Eritrea has long been a strategic location for much of the region, a hub for exports of gold, ivory, civet musk and slaves, and imports of textiles and other manufactured goods. The coastal area was visited shortly before the Christian era by Ptolemaic naval expeditions, which came in quest of elephants, known as "the tanks of the ancient world" [reference required, or remove the phras; does this sentence belong in the lead? (Too specific?)].
Try that. You need to collaborate with others who can copy-edit. Tony 12:13, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] main page
You'll need to ask Raul654 about that. Tony 03:59, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Coptic article
Hello my Coptic brother. I want to create a separate article, Coptic people which will focus on Copts. Most of the Copts conceder themselves as separate ethnic group from the arabs and they definitely deserve the separate article. Can you please help me with this User:Ldingley/copt people? I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks Ldingley 20:10, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
- Great! Im very happy, thanks a lot. Ldingley 21:14, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Slavery
Being a native African civilization has nothing to do with the selling of slaves. Turks had eastern European slaves that generally looked like them, and Greeks and Romans had European slaves as well (just look at the origin of the word slave - "Slav"). Ethiopian slaves were generally from either Nilotic people (e.g. the Barya or Nara/Kunama, whose name became the word for slave "barya"), or from Southwestern peoples (Omotic-speaking). However, there were also Christian slaves (mainly taken by Muslims) and Muslim slaves (mainly taken by Imperial conquests and when rebellions were put down). Whether these people looked like Ethiopians or not (depending on whether they followed Abrahamic religions or not, generally) doesn't matter. West African civilizations like the Ashanti, for example, were prolific slave traders, as were the Southeastern African Sultanates. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 21:06, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
-
- Haile Selassie also gave an excellent answer to the same question you asked, Cluck... See His Autobiography, Chapter 14
Regards, ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 21:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Copts
You are the best Cluck :) Finally some help arrived. please go on with the edits, that article really needs some good editing. Please tell me, the name for Copts in Coptic is correct on the article? Also should we replace Copt article with the drafted one which we are currently working on? Many thanks. Ldingley 17:22, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
- Cluck, are you copt ethnically? I translated the word from Coptic (it was written in Coptic alphabet) into English pronunciation. Do you agree that Copts are completely independent ethnic group of Egypt? Thanks.Ldingley 17:32, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
- I completely agree with you. Therefore, they should have a separate article which identifies them as separate nation and not some sub-ethnic group of the arabs. After, i will start editing Ethiopian articles :) Ldingley 17:39, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
- Sure. I have some photos of Habesha people. We just need info and sources. Ldingley 17:44, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
- Sure, I can create a similar images for habesha. Ldingley 13:57, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
- you can save the picture and edit it in Pain Shop. CheersLdingley 18:04, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
- You need to be an administrator to protect or lock the article. Otherwise its imposible. Ldingley 14:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Sabaean
Baye Binyam is speaking about the script, not the language. The language is not ancestral to Ge'ez, but Epigraphic South Arabian is ancestral to the Ge'ez alphabet. That the alphabet was introduced to Ethiopia by Sabaeans is not certain, however, as the earliest examples of the alphabet are in Ethiopia/Eritrea (e.g. 9th c. BC in Akkele Guzay), and not in Yemen, where they appear 8th-7th c. BC (around the same time as the D'mt inscriptions, but after the time of some of the Ethiopian inscriptions). Keep in mind that in the centuries prior to Sabaean involvement in the Red Sea, it was dominated by Ethiopians and Adulis/Punt were important areas on the coast. Alphabetic writing would have been imported through there from Egypt (and perhaps the Tihama in Yemen, which was in the same Ethiopian complex, but separate from Sabaeans), rather than the, at that time, isolated Sabaeans. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 19:11, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Aksum
I'm planning on improving and expanding the article further, but as the school year comes, I'll be a bit more busy, so my activity may be more restricted to a few additions and more cleanup/vandalism watching. If you want to help out, though, please add information about Aksum's military, culture, history, architecture, and things like that, instead of always revisiting the Sabaean issue. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 19:25, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Your Habesha article
I've read it now. It has some good parts, but also parts I disagree with. First of all, the true etymology should be presented before the false idea that it is Arabic in origin as per Wikipedia standards. Secondly, talking about very early history from the Neolithic and the like should probably be avoided, as that is the history of all peoples there, Habesha, Agaw, Nilotic, etc. Secondly, you write it as if only the nilotic Kunama and Nara are "black," which is wrong. Whatever your personal view is, the majority world view is that Ethiopians are black (which is supported by genetics, but even if it weren't, black is a social concept). Secondly, Ge'ez is definitely not a descendent of Sabaean or any of the Old South Arabian languages. Please accept this, as it is known not to be the case (the alphabet is such a descendent, however). If you want to equate Ge'ez speakers with Habesha, then you can start with the proto-Ge'ez speakers of D'mt, who called themselves yg`ḏyn or ag`azi (the ḏ was pronounced "th" as in "the" and merged with "z" in Ge'ez), related to the word for "Ge'ez" (then it would have been written g`ḏ but later g`z). Also note that Ge'ez was basically purely Semitic. Greek influence only appeared mainly loan words related to church matters, and more in the later Aksumite period, while Cushitic influence only came later, perhaps explaining the labiovelars (the "bastard" consonants with "-w" attached). It's the modern languages that have heavy Cushitic Agaw substrate influence. You skip a huge portion of medieval history, going instead straight to Tewodros, but then you start talking about plain Ethiopian history, instead of talking about the cultural history of the people, expansions, retreats, etc. There's much to be said about all this and it's most appropriate in this article. I do, however, reject to the use of the ethnic group box in the far right corner. Notice how the Indo-Aryan, Indo-Iranian, and other such grouped ethnic group articles do not use the box. Moreover, since the definition of Habesha varies from all Ethiopians and Eritreans to just Amharic and Tigrinya speakers, the numbers vary much as well (some definitions include Gurages, others include all Semitic speakers, still others include Agaws). I don't think the "indigenous" and "Sabaean" theories should be split, however. There should be one on the traditional history (separate from the "Sabaean theory"), and a second one on what modern researchers think, including some notes on previous scholars. The last section, however, I completely object to, as it simply takes old concepts of Caucasoid and Negroid to try and make Ethiopians seem white. Using the actual lineages, it is evident that Habeshas have J lineages from the Natufians in the Neolithic, but very few of these are from historic times, averaging about 30% paternal, so around 15% overall admixture from the Natufians, who are described as "a sub-Saharan" connected culture. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 19:50, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Queen of Sheba
Well, the legends don't come from nowhere. The Queen of Sheba legend could indicate a time when there was much trade on the Red Sea between Ethiopia, Yemen, and the Palestinian area (Ethiopian obsidian has been found in Egypt from as early as 3000 BC, though not necessarily from direct trade). Moreover, the (contemporary?) idea that she was preceded by her father Angabo, and before him ruled a serpent named Arwe (meaning "beast" or "serpent" in Ge'ez, Amharic it's "Awre" for wild beast), seems to have some truth to it. Of course there was no such beast, but it seems representative of earlier beliefs, as snake cults were widespread in Ethiopia, and Saint George is its patron saint as he was a dragon-slayer, tied to the destruction of the old pre-Aksumite cult. Moreover, an early Egyptian (fictional) story about Punt states that the prince of Punt was a giant Serpent-King; the name "Angabo" shows up as a place name of Ezana in the 4th century, so he may have been a historical character after whom a town was later named. We can't say for certain what's true or not, but there are obviously some historical truths interspersed in the text (for example, the last chapter seems to be an accurate depiction about Kaleb's invasion of Yemen and his sons' struggle for the throne, leading many to believe in a 6th or 7th century date for the original genesis of the Kibre Negest. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 19:59, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Copt dispute
Dear Cluck, there is avery strong pro-Arab Pov on the article Copt. The arab editor has removed the latest version. Please give us your input on talk page. Thanks. Ldingley 19:53, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Ethiopian Emperors Collaboration
What would you think about a sort of collaboration (but not a true one) regarding the Ethiopian Emperors in which editors would add content to the existing articles one by one, chronologically? Please respond at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ethiopia/History. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 04:20, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Is this your new user name?
Because at first I was bewildered when I could not find a link to your contributions; I found them only after looking on your old user page at User:Cluckbang. If you want to change your username, I suggest you put a request at Wikipedia:Changing username. (Don't feel embarassed if you didn't know this existed; although I did, it was still difficult to find.) -- llywrch 18:03, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] DUDE
The present composition of the Ethiopian population is the result of a complex and extensive intermixing of different peoples of North African, Near and Middle Eastern, and south-Saharan origin. The main groups inhabiting the country are the Amhara and the Tigray-Tigrinya people, descended from Arabian conquerors. The genetic distance analysis showed the separation between African and non-African populations, with the Amhara located in an intermediate position."
"On the basis of historical, linguistic, and genetic data, it has been suggested that the Ethiopian population has been strongly affected by Caucasoid migrations since Neolithic times. On the basis of autosomal polymorphic loci, it has been estimated that 60% of the Ethiopian gene pool has an African origin, whereas ~40% is of Caucasoid derivation."
This has been discarded. Ethiopians have little to no admixture on average. This information was made on some blog and dosent reflect the facts. I removed it with more realistic facts.
[edit] Eritrea
Hey Cluckbang. Long time no see. I'm afraid that your edit will probably be reverted very soon, and with reason. You have provided no sources to back up your claim, which is a controversial one. There are some Eritreans who would like to see reunification, but that faction is still very small. It was much larger before the 1998 war, when there were talks of an open border and perhaps confederation. Nowadays, even those who are anti-HGDEF (anti-Shaebia) are still for an independent Eritrea and its mainly small minorities like the Kunama and some Afars who are more for some sort of association with Ethiopia. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 19:02, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Please help-Amharic language request
Hello! The Wikipedia:Graphic Lab is working on artwork related to Ethiopia, and we need some help to get the proper Amharic language text into the artwork. Please visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Graphic_Lab/Images_to_improve#Ethiopia_Scout_Association and see if you can help! Thanking you in advance, Chris 07:25, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Kurów
Could you please write an article about Kurów on Tigrinya language here ( http://kurow-wiki.openhosting.pl/wiki/ti:Kurow ) – just a few sentences based on http://kurow-wiki.openhosting.pl/wiki/en:Kurow ? Only 3-10 sentences enough. Please.
PS. Article about Kurów is already on 242 (languages and dialects. If your village/town/city isn't yet on PL Wikipedia, I can do article about it. I saw that users who have ti-N, ti-4 are inactive (last edit was in 2006) so I wrote to you. Pietras1988 (talk) 09:17, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Massawaturkishbuilding.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:Massawaturkishbuilding.jpg. However, there is a concern that the rationale you have provided for using this image under "fair use" may be invalid. Please read the instructions at Wikipedia:Non-free content carefully, then go to the image description page and clarify why you think the image qualifies for fair use. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If it is determined that the image does not qualify under fair use, it will be deleted within a couple of days according to our criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot (talk) 07:05, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] National Scout Association of Eritrea
Hello! Can you please help translate the name of this organization into Tigrinya? Thank you! Chris (クリス) (talk) 01:06, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Image copyright problem with Image:EPLFrebels.jpg
Thank you for uploading Image:EPLFrebels.jpg. However, it currently is missing information on its copyright status. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously. It may be deleted soon, unless we can determine the license and the source of the image. If you know this information, then you can add a copyright tag to the image description page.
If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thanks again for your cooperation. Sdrtirs (talk) 04:34, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
