Talk:Club music

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Club music article.
Article policies

Contents

[edit] Club music includes Techno and House and their derivative forms

Hello, Im going to heavily contribute to this article. Before getting angry and reverting it, please read my cultural reference in this topic at my user info. Thank you for your patience. Brian W 12:38, 3 June 2006 (UTC).

POV and Original research. I'm not angry, but it's ridiculous to define a genre like house music by the venue where recordings are played. It's still house even if you don't play it in a club. Electronic dance music is the more accurate construction when you're saying what house, techno, etc. are forms of.
I suspect a lot of IDM heads would disagree that IDM is club music. And some would disagree that (insert ear-splitting aggressive hardcore techno style here) is club music. Or that go-go, jazz, or any other music you can dance to and that is sometimes played in different types of clubs than you're used to isn't club music.
You're clearly just trying to invent a definition because apparently in your neck of the woods, the term "electronic dance music" or whatever has fallen out of vogue, and you don't like seeing it all over Wikipedia. We can only refer to reliable sources that claim as much, and you don't strike me as a reliable source. Also, you're perhaps reading too much into Wikipedia's use of the term electronic dance music; as I said, it's accurate and descriptive. Club music, on the other hand, is vague and has negative connotations for some. Perhaps you use it very generally but others don't, I assure you. I suggest abandoning this terminology evangelism and instead working on putting verifiable information into existing articles.—mjb 21:51, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
If you've been in a club in Europe in the past, oh, five years, you'll realise that the term "club music" is a moronically stupid way to attempt to describe dance music genres. Various forms of urban/rnb/hiphop probably comprise more of an average set than what you seem to think of as "club music".
And nothing in the article there reads like anything other than your personal opinion. This is not your blog. The terms you're attempting to potray as "obsolete" are used by likely 99% of the English-speaking dance music industry still. You can't go and claim that because you personally don't use a term that its now obsolete. Except maybe on your own webpage or blog; not in an encyclopedia. --Kiand 22:10, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Please stop offending and insulting me. Have you ever been in a club or discoteque? I guess not. I jrecently added some important information in the nightclub definition. Previous to my edit, it seems that that section of the article had been written by someone who had never been in a club. Please cease now and let me work. Brian W 22:11, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I DJ. Have you been in one in the past few years? It certainly appears not. --Kiand 22:16, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Some of my friends are DJs, and there is nothing new in last 8 years, i's the same stuff. Stop now, I ask you kindly.Brian W 22:26, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

So, you haven't been to one in eight years and you're going off second hand information? Lovely.
In the past eight years, commmercial dance music has effectively died on its feet, there was a temporary rise in pure cheese, which mainly fell off, and R&B has very much taken over. 8 years ago, there is no way in hell you'd have played (the 1998 equivalents of) Rhianna or the Black Eyed Peas in even the worst discobar in rural Ireland or England; these days its quite normal. The majority of pure trance or techno clubs have even succumbed to playing anything that'll get people through the doors these days.
If you can find even one reputable DJ using the term "club music" and stating that the proper genre names are obsolete, you might be taken a little more seriously. But as someone who actually does it, and knows a number of other people involved in it very well, I can tell you that you'll have a hard time.
Oh, and btw - the last person I heard someone use the term "Discotheque", it was my mother. Who's in her 50's. And listens to classical music. And nothing else. --Kiand 22:31, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please stop now

Please stop harrassing me. How many times and when I've been in a club is not relevant to this discussion. You are asking me citations, but eventually you are making fun of the point that some of my friends are djs. I mentioned the "discoteque" becouse I worked on related articles these days. Also, try to understand that youngsters' slang is only hardly tolerated in encyclopedias, and is never regarded as the primary source of knowledge. Does that seem understandable to your limited points of view? Brian W 22:45, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Considering you put this on my talk page too, I'm going to move my answer to here.
Youngsters slang like made-up replacement terms for things? Oh yes, just like "Club music" then. What knowledge you have of the clubbing scene is entirely relevant, because you're claiming that (quite important) related terms are "obsolete" without any proof that they are, or even that you'd have the reason to know that they are.
Your friends are third-party sources. You personally appear to not have any personal knowledge of a scene you're making quite major claims about. --Kiand 22:50, 4 June 2006 (UTC)


You are only 'speculating about this matter. I have an extensive personal knowledge of all music, becouse I like all music. So, please, again, stop harrassing me, (though I'm older than you, I'll never surrender. got it?). Brian W 22:59, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

That under no circumstances means you know what terms are "obsolete" in something its becoming increasingly clear you don't know much about. Provide sources to show that the term is obsolete - recent usage of it over all others by notable DJs, clubs, promoters or the music industry, or I'm going to remove the claim that the term is obsolete. Provide similar sources as to its origins too, as they sound about as reliable as a chocolate teapot. --Kiand 23:07, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some Google Test numbers

Google US: "Club music" - 2.6 million hits, and off the first page alone, most don't refer to it as musical genre Google US: "Dance music" - 22 million Google US: "Disco music" - 925K hits Google US: "Techno music" - 1.77 million Google US: "Drum and bass" - 4.848 million

If a term made the rest of these "obsolete", you'd expect it to outweigh them in results, wouldn't you? Not counting for the ever regular mishits, Techno and the itself archaic, except when referring to a specific 1970/80s musical style term Disco get more hits than it.

The term isn't in regular use by any DJs of my acquaintance, be they club, nightclub or even wedding/event. This covers a nice wide range of countries (Ireland, the UK, Holland and the east coast of the US). It most certainly hasn't made the actually descriptive terms for specific genres obsolete with its strange unification of only electronic dance music - which in this day and age makes up as little as 20 to 30% of many DJs output, due to the rise in R&B, Urban and Hip Hop. --Kiand 23:18, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Dance music refers to music for dance in general, even here in Wikipedia; just look at Dance music, and you'll realize that the music for nighclubs takes just some lines. Of course you are free to vandalize that aarticle. Good luck. Brian W 18:58, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

And you're claiming that "club music" has obsoleted terms such as Drum & Bass, which still outweigh it by close to 100%, as well as the, what, ten other genres you're claiming it has "obsoleted" the name of. Its a neologism. The majority of the Google hits for it are for entirely different topics - 3 of the first 10 appear to use it in that usage, compared to ten of ten for "drum and bass". --Kiand 20:48, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Usage on industry websites

As an extension of this, I decided to see where the term "club music" is used in the EDM industry. Barring some limited forum posts and one use of it as a search keyword, I got this:

Record labels:

DJs:

Dance Music Television:

Dance Music Radio:

Dance Music Promotion:

  • Meganite - as Mauro Picotto (not used)

Nightclubs:

  • Spirit Dublin - not used
  • The Place of Dance (POD) - not used.

Dance Music Magazines:

This is heavily Irish biased, as well as towards commercial dance music, but particularly with the record labels and clubs in there, it levels off. And its been used once, and about twenty times by forum posters. Is there any way to say that its "obsoleted" another term when its just not in use? --Kiand 21:05, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New intro

This now uses "Music for nightclubs" as the first term... this gets a stonkin' 112 Google hits. And none seem to be anything other than context-ripped sections of sentances. Its not even worth trying to find out if anyone actually in the industry uses it, as its clearly another neologistic term. --Kiand 01:09, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge notice

I've merged the articles. Well, actually, theres nothing here thats not covered already, and far more accurately, in the Electronic dance article, so I've just redirected here to there, especially as it is the established term and this is... not an established term. I can't see there being many complaints. --Kiand 03:04, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Of course none is complaining, it's night. maybe tomorrow someone will realize that you deserve to be banned. I don't need wikipedia. You need to learn English and some politeness. Brian W 03:14, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Its night time in Europe and the East coast of the USA, thats all. Even when a full day has rolled around, I think we've seen our single complaint. --Kiand 03:17, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

This is a relatively new article and has few people watching it, and the electronic dance music article is probably not being monitored by as many people as it should. People don't check their watchlists ever day and don't always have time to react to changes, so you should not consider short spans of stability to indicate consensus.

I support Kiand's efforts and don't agree with the content of most of Brian W's edits, although I do support the underlying motivation of improving the articles such that they provide a workable definition of their topics. My philosophy is that his edits indicate that both articles were in need of attention; they both were rather lacking in substance and did nothing to help one understand what was meant by their titles. I took it upon myself to rewrite the intro to the electronic dance music article, and I devoted a paragraph to the relationship between it and the phrase "club music", which Brian rightly points out (though without proper qualification) is used quite a lot, at least in some parts of the world. Between the lines, he demonstrated that there was a point that to be addressed: clubgoers and people connected to club scenes (like him) do tend to associate the phrase "club music" with the particular genres that they are into, and it doesn't occur to them that in other scenes the term is used to mean other forms of music, or that the definition really depends on what's popular at the time. Someone shouldn't visit these articles and come away with the impression that the terms still need to be defined and delineated. That said, I'm not entirely happy with devoting so much space in that article to defining 'club music'; it should be more thoroughly defined here, although there does still need to be some attention paid to the relationship between the terms in both articles. It's an improvement at least, and hopefully will dissuade people from attempting to impose definitions that are relatively contentious or disproven. I haven't time to work on the club music article, but I will keep watching it. —mjb 02:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The most general term

Do you have a better idea? You can't stand that my recent edit at the nightclub article is working, it means that I described better than other WPs the subject (very weird for a geek, isb't it?) If someone that is fully unaware of this topic, such as a listener of other genres, one day wants to discover everything about the music for dancefloors, now we have here a starting point, a summary, a "pivotal" voice. I do not mean to create and name a new genre. anyway you do not want to admit that there are other forms of modern dance music that are not heavily influenced by "electronic" sounds. That happens in continental Europe, too, not in US only. I'm unaware of current British and Irish scene, I'm not interested. Brian W 01:10, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I haven't looked at your edits at the Nightclub article, assuming that I have and resent them smacks of sheer paranoia. Theres isn't a more general term because theres -no need for one-. There is no such genre as "music for dancefloors", and if they want to know whats played in a nightclub, they look at the nightclub article. As would a listener of other genres (although they'll almost certainly think of "dance music" as a generic term first)
Under WP:NOT - "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information" - point 2 - "Lists or repositories of loosely associated topics". An article on what music may or may not be played in nightclubs falls smack in to that.
There are always going to be forms of "dance music", which is music that people dance to, which are not electronic or electronicly influenced. However, the music played in nightclubs usually is, and virtually everything you're describing here falls directly in to the description of Electronic Dance Music.
You're also not going to get around the fact that it appears you basically invented this term. There is no usage of it to refer to what you're trying to claim it means, indeed within the industry, there is no usage of it at all. --Kiand 02:02, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


That industry is owned by narcotrafficants. The term Dance music refers even to classical dance, do you know that? And if Brits and Irish are so cool and intelligent and do not need someone's else opinion, why then UK Armed Forces use Latin mottos in their badges? And the sentence Dieu est mon droit, sounds familiar to you? Most of terms in science have Greek etymology. Anyway, keep in your mind that:

I am not inventing the term club.
I am not inventing the term club.
I am not inventing the term club.
I am not inventing the term club.
I am not inventing the term club.
erm, if you think that, it just shows that you know nothing about the industry, and indeed shows that you probably have some serious biases against it. Some clubs may be owned by people involved in the drug industry (nice to see you invented a word there too), but the majority are not. The majority of them are owned by large pub chains. The record labels are also not. The industry magazines are not. The DJs themselves clearly are not (ever heard Paul Van Dyk's anti-drugs, erm, rants is the best thing to call them in interviews? Obviously not). The radio and TV stations are not (MTV Dance is owned by Viacom, who I doubt would like you to descrbe them as drug dealers).
And again, you're resorting to petty geographical insults in lieu of an argument. And nobody is saying you invented the term club. You are, however, effectively attempting to invent a new master-genre of music, and the complete and utter lack of use of it by anyone in the industry shows that. If any of them used it, you might have a point. Whereas its one solitary man pushing the use of it, and its one solitary man who appears to be completely out-of-touch with what they're trying to talk about. --Kiand 02:29, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Narcotrafficants: it's a word similar to the one that is used in Spanish, as you all are such aficionados of Spanish language, see the ridicolous misuse of the term Electronica, for example; got my irony now?.

I don't speak Spanish, nor do I believe I've used the term "electronica" at any stage. --Kiand 11:58, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Now you guys are just getting silly. Take a break, the apocalypse won't happen just because you guys aren't around for a few days to revert "your" article. — ceejayoz talk 02:23, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Your comment at Club Music

Have you read the article? In UK and Europe, DJs use club music since the mid 1980s in their slang. Many Wikipedians find difficult and disputable to deal with the inconsistency of these music genres articles. Please watch my contribs and the feedback of other WPs. And who told you that the venue doesnt define the genre? It was called disco music in Donna Summer and The Chic era, then the disco died, and it has been called dance music up to 10 years ago. Where do you live? All the web quotes "Club music". A Google search returns 2,500,0000 results. See also http://www.beatworld.com/ a US based radio that doesnt pretend to be unaware of the term Brian W 21:57, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes I read it. Providing an unsourced claim that UK DJs essentially invented the term "club music" and that it has this rigid definition that allows it to suprsede the descriptive phrase "electronic dance music" is not persuasive.
I'm not saying "club music" doesn't exist or is an invalid term in and of itself; clearly it's not, and is widely used. I am also not disputing that you and your DJ friends use the term to refer to electronic dance music. What I object to is that you're trying to place improper restrictions on the definitions of both "club music" and "electronic dance music". Both are informal terms, for one thing. "Club music" has a definition that changes over time and from scene to scene; people do sometimes refer to more than just electronic dance music as "club music", and in the future, "club music" may not encompass electronic dance music at all. But in the future, electronic dance music will still be electronic dance music. Any claims you make about things that can change need to be phrased such that they're just as valid in the future as they are now. Temporal qualifiers are necessary. As of 2006, for example.
And the genre of disco is still disco; it did not change to "dance music" or "club music". You're conflating the actual genre with the general term used to refer to the genres played in certain types of nightclubs (specifically, the ones that play recorded music) by patrons of such clubs at a certain period in music history, in certain regions of the world - currently, that term is "club music", and you're right, it used to be disco, although there weren't 27487528098709 varieties of disco, so it's not the best example. Do you see the difference, though? "Club music" and "electronic music" and "electronic dance music" are meta-genres and mean different things to different people. They're primarily descriptive phrases that are used as if they were genres, usually by people who are either ignorant of actual genre names, or who intentionally want to make a blanket reference to multiple genres.
Take for example hip hop music and reggae. I assure you people in different communities use "club music" to refer to the many different forms of hip hop and reggae. But that's probably not the club music you have in mind, eh? And lots of people draw a line between those forms of music and electronic dance music. So you see, it's inappropriate to say club music and electronic dance music mean the same thing. 'Club music' mainly covers what's popular. People might use it as if it covers what's made a certain way with certain instruments, but ultimately it's very distinct from the phrase 'electronic dance music' in that regard.
You're also overlooking the fact that "club", as in "clubby" is a distinguishing factor in separating styles within genres. 0.00001% of IDM is club-friendly, but I'd wager that none of it is "clubby". Maybe that doesn't stop some larger percentage of people from lumping it under 'club music', but generally people don't consider it to be club music because they generally don't hear it played at clubs! And 99.99% of house music is club music, in a sense, but "clubby" house is only a portion of all house. I highly doubt fans of splittercore techno would call it "club music"; rather they'd probably take offense.
The definition you tried to put in the electronic dance article was sorely lacking, and again made the unverifiable, dubious assertion that "electronic dance" (music) is obsolete and identical to "club music". However, what was there before wasn't much better, and I feel the article title needs to be changed to make it seem less like "electronic dance" is a genre in the sense that "house" is. I've rewritten the intro of that article to provide what I feel is a more reasonable explanation of the relationship between the terms, as well as better explaining what is meant by "electronic dance music". It's a bit wordy, much like this reply, but I wanted to address all of these points.—mjb 23:42, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm enjoying your last edits at "electronic dance music". Brian W thx


unsourced claim that UK DJs essentially invented the term "club music" and that it has this rigid definition that allows it to suprsede the descriptive phrase "electronic dance music" is not persuasive.

still unsourced claim? nightlubs and discoteques are called club in UK. Or are you asking me a source for that? Vynil remixes reported Club version, Club edit or Club remix since early 1980s. I guess dictionaries report the word club with this meaning.

I am also not disputing that you and your DJ friends use the term to refer to electronic dance music.

I never sayd that edm is all club music, just a part of it.

Take for example hip hop music and reggae. I assure you people in different communities use "club music" to refer to the many different forms of hip hop and reggae. But that's probably not the club music you have in mind, eh? And lots of people draw a line between those forms of music and electronic dance music. So you see, it's inappropriate to say club music and electronic dance music mean the same thing. Who told you that I didn't mean to include hip-hop and reggae?? Did you see the template that I edited for that article? Also, one of my DJs friends is mainly a Reggae DJs. And when did I say that edm is all club music? I am trying to use a terme that may be able to include all the percussive genres that are aimed for dancing from 1960s onnward. Music for nightclubs or modern dance music would suite good, I believe.

Listen carefully: I don't really care of clubbing, and the music for dancefloors. What I can't stand is just the fact that here in Wikipedia some articles are dealing with and describing the same topic, that is modern techno-dance music. These articles are Electronic music, Ambient, Ambient techno dance. I cant stand that potheads regard themselves as the heirs of Stockhausen, Brian Eno and Tangerine Dream. Youngsters' pretentiousness claiming to cathegorize music only in two big genres-acoustic and electronic-, regardless styles, other cultural movements and contexts really scares me.

AGAIN and again, how can you all believe that electronic instruments can attribute the style of a given piece of music? (sorry for my continental European English).Wikipedia is a pop music magazine? Or something similar to an academic encyclopedia? Brian W 02:33, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Who told you that I didn't mean to include hip-hop and reggae?
Your initial edits to the house music, electronic dance, and club music articles were equating "club music" and "electronic dance music", and they indicated an unsubstantiated preference for "club music" as the canonical term for this category of genres. You even insisted that you had never heard the term "electronic dance music" used by UK DJs. You were called out on this by me and others, and I went to a good deal of trouble to edit one of the articles to accommodate your underlying but mostly unstated complaint, which was that neither of the terms were very well discussed in the articles, and the relationship between them was unclear, especially given that they're sometimes conflated. Now you're trying to have Wikipedia canonize "music for nightclubs" and "modern dance music". I don't understand why you are doing this. What is unacceptable to you about the information that is presented in the articles? Why do you think they're incomplete if they don't use those terms? Don't answer here; take it up on the articles' Talk pages.
Regarding instrumentation, most certainly it is an important, though not exclusive, criteria in the definition of many music genres. If you disagree with that, take it up on Talk:Music genre.—mjb 06:19, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

So Hip Hop, a danceable music made with electronic instruments (as of 2006), is an electronic dance music or not? Anyway, feel free to d what you want, inlcuding deleting this article, I don' care of WP's music related articles, and I don't care of you all. Brian W 10:54, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

For someone who "don' care", you're putting an awful lot of angst in to promoting a term that you can't provide any sources for, and which isn't used outside of one or two locations in the United States, it appears.
And no, hip hop isn't EDM. Its Hip hop, and is covered MORE than adequately in that article as it is. We don't need "meta articles" for terms that are never, ever going to be searched for trying to neatly encapsulate god knows what in to one term.
Currently, theres "dancable rock" - although as you've effectively admitted to not having been in a club in some years, I wouldn't expect you to have noticed this. The Killers, Fall Out Boy, The Bravery and other bands (mainly from the US, actually) have tracks which are not particularly floor-unfriendly, but theres no way in hell you can claim there "club music". They are alternative rock, and covered more than adequately in that article too, as was the somewhat similar work of New Order in the late 1980s/early 1990s. Theres also actually another quite neologistic, but less grating "Synth Rock" article...
Effectively, there are -no limits- to what could be called or could be termed as club music. As a term, its redundant in the extreme, and in no common usage. And despite your claims, its not being used by DJs in the UK. --Kiand 11:57, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

And who is these "we" that reject the term? You can't imagine how much I'm laughing at you. Of course I'm aware of any kind of bands and djs currently played in clubs, and I honestly don't care at all. By the way, in the place in which I live, we don't need to get in the nightclub to listen to music, becouse at summer, seasides' nightclubs let us listen even from the outside; should I also mention the radio?). So Hip Hop is an acoustic dance music? mbuahahaha, these definitions are pathetic.

thanksgiving to people like you, most of the articles related to music genres topic will never become featured articles and will never be released on the Wiki CD in English, becouse their standard is still very far from the academic-encyclopedic one (should I also mention how fucking many times is quoted Mr Aphex Twin?).Brian W 12:59, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
"We" means the entire rest of the Wikipedia, who don't need any neologisms pushed by one person with an agenda, nor any attempts to pidgeon-hole massive ranges of music in to a single term. You're pushing this idea of "club music", and you're taking the radio as a source? There is a major, major difference between radio, be it commercial or pirate, and whats played in clubs. And seaside nightclubs are renowned for being cheese pits, little more than meat-markets for drunken tourists, but thats another topic entirely...
And no, Hip hop is not "acoustic dance music". Its hip hop. I'm not sure what in your brain won't let that connection be made. Its definately clear that you "don't care at all", because if you did, you wouldn't be making outlandish claims relating to terms being "obsoleted", as one example. As goes how many times Richard D. James is quoted, I really couldn't care less - if you can find suitable quotes to replace them, by all means go ahead, but they have to be from someone with some level of notability.
And based on the quality of your English, nothing you ever write would make it to FA status or on to the WikiCD either. Neither will a neologism. --Kiand 13:07, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

If my English is so terrible, why "the rest of Wikipedia" has never complained about my (more than) three hundred edits in dozens of articles? I do not aim to be the main editor of any of these srticles, I'm just contributing a little. It is pathetic, sadly ridicolous, this guy is harrasing and insulting me and none stop him. I am wondering whether this is real or is simply a joke of the ISP I am using, orI have to sadly and defihttp://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/button_sig.png Your signature with timestampnitely assume that Wikipedia is something to forget to me, a failed experiment. There is no Hari Seldon around here. Brian W 13:40, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I've seen at least one other comment (accusing you of being drunk) related to your spelling and grammar. "It seem that y If my", which was the original intro to your last edit, makes no sense for your start, theres a missing space between "or" and "I" later on, you've got some strange issues with capitalisation and the use of ' in words like "I'm" and "don't", "is something to forget to me" makes no sense either, and I could continue just on that one paragraph. A few spelling errors can affect anyone, but your errors are consistant, and cover both spelling and quite serious grammar problems that render some text close to unreadable.
Additional to all that is the fact that you make claims about others "linguistic"s when your own are extremely lacking. --Kiand 13:45, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Being a real human person, I'm a bit busy with my real life, and I'm not used to pay much attention if I'm on talk pages. I should underline your spelling errors, but I'm sorry, I can't waste my time with you. The persons complaining of me were very likely sockpuppets of.... ? Guess it.
Ok, Hip Hop is acoustic, if it is not electronic, then it's acoustic. Are you happy now? Thank you for making me laugh this way. Sadly ridicolous that none blocks you. Brian W 13:54, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
If you're making thinly veiled accusations of sockpuppetry against me, go and get any shreds of evidence you can gather together and go and make a WP:RfCU on me, because you'll be sadly dissapointed. If you want to underline my spelling errors, by all means go ahead and do so, remembering that I don't speak American English as a starter.
At no stage did I say anything about hip hop being electronic or acoustic. I said it is hip hop, and thats it. Stop reading things in to what I say. --Kiand 13:58, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cite sources

I don't go to nightclubs, and listen to very little of the music that is played there. I don't know how the terms y'all are discussing are used, beyond some vague ideas based on my own experiences. The only way to solve this problem is to cite sources to support claims about how words are used. Wikipedia should not be promoting unused terminology, nor giving new meanings to established terminology. It is also not really enough to point to individual pages on the web where a term is used -- someone needs to cite a source where a reputable, knowledgeable person writes "the term electronic dance music refers to...". Anything else is pointless arguing, because whatever the result is will be removed and replaced by the first person to cite sources. It looks like few, if any, of the involved genres cite any references at all, so I'm not taking a position on what to do -- all articles without references are unacceptable and in violation of Wikipedia policy. Tuf-Kat 22:24, 15 June 2006 (UTC)