Talk:Clow Cards/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

List of suggestions for this article

Include all cards from both anime and magna. If spiolers will be used for the article show how it was captured. Also state purpose of card and possibly apperance.

If the card is a magna card, state the fact.

Include card images if they can be allowed on Wikipedia.

--Dynamo_ace 20:20, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

If you need example card pictures, I have scans here (I didn't scan these particular images myself, although I do have the set). This is the best scan I have of The Nothing (from the 2nd movie). I notice a bit of a Nelvana dub bias in the article BTW, e.g. character names. Shiroi Hane 07:32, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

My set is much paler, less detailed, with hardly any shading. I bought mine in a toy store in Muncie, IN. Hackwrench 22:08, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I've added a good scan of the Nothing card --perfectblue 15:24, 2 February 2006 (UTC)Perfectblue97

The image currently isn't tagged correctly with source and licensing so it'll be deleted soon. I would like to know where it came from actually since it's better than anything I have. Shiroi Hane 16:49, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Major Changes

And apparently my login timed out, but I'm the 63.252.67.195 guy who filled out the large change today (Nov. 1, 2005). Specifically, making the following entries:

Flower, Shield, Power, Mist, Storm, Float, Erase, Glow, Move, Fight, Sleep, Song, Little, Return, Shot, Sweet, Freeze, Firey, Arrow, Bubble, Wave, Libra, Through, Snow, Voice, Lock, Cloud, Dream, Sand, Dark, Light, Twin, Earthy

Which as far as I can tell are in the correct order by anime introduction. Even those really obscure ones like Wave and Libra.

Also made a few corrections to Loop.

Anyway, sorry if some of the actual descriptions are a little bare. I was wondering whether it would be okay to change the entry format so that there would be a:

---
Name - Windy
Japanese Name - (katakana)
Appearance - (description)
Power - (etc.)
---

for each card, and so forth. Might be better than what we have now.

Edit: I'm pretty new at Wiki editing, and forgot my four-tilde signature.

KLSymph 10:48, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Continuing with the effort to improve the page, I changed the organization of the headings by adding all the cards into a separate hierarchy level. Mostly so that the cards themselves would be numbered 1-53, rather than the previous 2-54 with #1 being the history entry. It's not really pretty, but there it is.

KLSymph 07:13, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Rare Cards

I'm looking into some of the material I own to see if there's any info on the cards that were never shown in detail in the Anime. Shiroi Hane

The Wave

The Clow Book set has the following sentence 「波を起こすことができる」 which seems to translate roughly as "It creates a wave", which isn't a very promising start... and unfortunately the text in the fortune book is purely about telling fortunes.

The Libra

Ah this is more like it.. the text for this card reads 「人が嘘をついているか、判断することができる。」 or something like "It judges whether a person is lying".

---

Hmm, I don't have access to that material, but the translation sounds about right. Could you make a note in the article that this comes from the Clow Book rather than the series itself, to prevent confusion? KLSymph 22:28, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

As long as the information is correct the source doesn't really matter, it is clearly stated that the cards are not used in the anime so I don't see why there would be confusion, it's certaintly less confusing than the the "What this does we don't know... possibly.." type entries that were there before. Shiroi Hane 08:44, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

page format

I've extended a lot of the descriptions and added a few more pictures, unfortunately this is making the page a bit unweildy. Maybe we should update the page formating to indent subheadings or put some kind of visual break in between the different cards.

I didn't start this page, so I'm leaving the formatting as it is right now, but I may change it latter on if nobody objects.


--perfectblue 14:47, 2 February 2006 (UTC)perfectblue97

Warning!

The article is about 53 kilobytes long, which means it is starting to exceed safe article sizes. If anyone can clean up the article to make it easier to view, now would be the time. -Dynamo_ace Talk

There's one thing I've been meaning to bring back up with perfectblue.. I don't see the need to list the episode numbers twice when they are both the same. If there is a difference in episode number between the two version then, yes state so, but otherwise it's just adding more bytes to the soup. Shiroi Hane 21:20, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm aware that this article is getting too verbose, the only thing that I can suggest is putting in a table at the begining with the name an depisode numbers, and then farming each individual card off to a seperate page. Personally, I don't think that splitting up the page will be a good idea. It's not as if it is a regularly accessed page.

I thought that as only the first 14 out of 53 cards had the same numbers, that it would be better to include the double stats from the start, rather than suddenly shift them in from the middle. --perfectblue 16:29, 5 February 2006 (UTC)perfectblue97

The problem is there are too many useless details. Even if we as fans consider the information useful, wikipedia isn't supposed to be this detailed about something as minor as a series of cards from a fictional anime. write-ups need to be brief, we don't need to know everything about the card that happened to it in the series. --Ned Scott 22:41, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. I've looked at a dozen Clow sites, and most of them just have a two line description of the card and when it was captured. It's been done before, often badly. There are very few sites with any real detail to set them apart.

Wikipedia is meant to address any topic serioiusly and scientifically, even magic cards from a 10 year old Anime. If you can't approach this as if it were rocket science, then why bother? ---perfectblue 16:29, 5 February 2006 (UTC)perfectblue97

For starters, wikipedia is not our own personal fansite. Read the policy Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not --Ned Scott 14:32, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not censored. Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia. This means that there is no practical limit to the number of topics we can cover other than verifiability and the other points presented on this page. There are portions of the policy that can be uesd to support both sides of the arguement. Hackwrench 22:19, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Maybe a seperate wikicity is in order then to elimate the problem. --Dynamo_ace Talk

I don't really think that a lot actually has to be cut from these articles, since there's so much redundant information. Also, some re-writes here and there will also cut down on a lot of bloat. I don't think it's as extreme as you think it might be. --Ned Scott 00:37, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Well I've gone through the whole article refining it, and I think there was a net reduction in article size after cutting the bloat. Not much, though, as it seems to still be around 56k after adding better text after cutting bloat (heh, but at least it reads a lot better now). But then again, we're documenting 53 (54 sort of) cards here, so giving each card 1k of useful text sounds about right. So the article is kinda stuck the way it is, since we can't effectively split it in half or anything. (And there are more pictures to be added, too, which would increase its visible length.) --Crisu 20:52, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Problem solved. I've split the list of cards into three new articles. This main article now has a list of links (in two ordering schemes!) to all the cards. --Crisu 07:42, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Sun/Moon Influence

It was my understanding that all the cards were under the Sun or the Moon. Sun cards are affected positively by Kero, and Moon by Yue, so links to Yue and Kero are just because of the cards being under those signs. Hackwrench 22:23, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

That wasn't storm, it was 'Cloud' perfectblue97

Future editing

I'm going to start adding to this again unless anybody objects.

I want to make this a complete list with enough detail to make it worthwhile, but I understand the bloat concerns.

Unless there is anything that anybody feels that i need to know/rule I should obey, I am going to continue on as before.

perfectblue97

If I notice that you are adding to the Card descriptions with stubs, I'll temporarily halt my article revision to avoid accidental overwrites. (Heh, my spring break is next week, too, so I may not be on Wiki as often as I have been, anyway.) But thanks. So far I don't have any personal objections to expanding this article. But I may or may not omit details whenever I get there. =) You can view the descriptions for the first few cards in the list to see how I tend to revise things. --Crisu 18:56, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

What are stubs? perfectblue97

opps, it looks like you have filled in pretty much everything that I missed. Good job. perfectblue97

I meant stubs by the short little paragraphs (if that) about each card, adding just a little bit more detail of the card descriptions that were lacking. ^^; But yeah, I guess I kinda swept through it on my latest big edit. I thought you had something different in mind, so sorry for doing your work. But thanks. ^_^ --Crisu 20:46, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

The Nothing

Any reason as to why this card was still being referred to as The Void? I think it's reasonably clear that CLAMP intended the card to be named "The Nothing" in English from illustrations (one which is presented on this discussion page). Translations based on the kanji that are not official do not need to be included and are only there in the first place because the official name is not shown in the movie itself (even Pioneer made a mistake by translating it from the kanji as "Blank"). I changed all references from Void back to Nothing, but decided to mention it here too in case of any disagreement. EmperorBrandon 05:02, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

For reference, here again is a scan of the Nothing card. There was a better scan on the article page at one point, I don't know where it came from but it was deleted for being unsourced before I could save a copy :( Shiroi Hane 08:07, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Not sure if it is the one you came across, but I've found a different scan of the Nothing Card at Absolute Anime. --EmperorBrandon 22:46, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
What exactly does the Nothing card do, what is its power? Come to think of it, what is the Hope cards power. Bubble bunny 10:24, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Changing order by capture

Having the four cards which weren't seen captured after Earthy is a little misleading, as we can certainly assume they weren't captured then. Five cards are pictured in ep. 36 (in order from right to left): Arrow, Bubbles, Wave, Libra, Through, and Kero mentions that they were caught over the break (the capture of Arrow, of course, later being revealed in the first movie which took place during that period). So, I think they should all be placed in order before Snow. I have edited the list to reflect this. EmperorBrandon 16:00, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

*Reviews episode* Wow.. Kero does say that. Ha, that's great. At least they mention it (even if just a little) instead of letting us assume she just got them somehow. Again, it's a copout from trying to write an explanation for The Libra, or how The Through, The Bubble, and The Wave can cause real mischief, ^_^ but I'm glad they get pictured in the show. Thanks, Brandon. --Crisu 01:39, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Just something I remembered from the last time I watched through CCS (which was a one-ep-a-day marathon). I used the "step forward" button quite a few times in scenes where Clow Cards scroll by to see which ones were pictured. One neat little tidbit (not sure if it was in that episode or not, but it may be) was I noticed one time where the Freeze card appeared among Sakura's cards. Must have been a mistake of the animators, since it was at a point where that card was supposed to be in Shaoran's possession. EmperorBrandon 02:04, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
A bit of trivia: part of the capture of the Bubble is actually shown - at the start of the second movie when they show some of the footage Tomoyo shot during the series. Shiroi Hane 22:04, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Card images

I have scans of all the cards, so we don't have to use fuzzy TV screenshots for these images. But I've refrained from taking any initiative on it, since I think having the image for the card entity is good enough. Or rather, adding more images of the card face would somewhat clutter the article. ...There's a way to put the two images side-by-side, of course, but is there a consensus that it would improve the article? If so, then I can help out some on that effort. --Crisu 06:29, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I was just wondering that myself, to rv or not. The images added are mostly blurry, but even if better ones were uploaded, do we need a potential of two or more images per card? There's an issue of layout, as well as fair use. I doubt the fair use will be an issue, as one could argue either way, but I doubt anyone feels that strongly about it. However, under fair use, one should use a minimal amount of images to demonstrate an element. I can't say that I feel strongly on this issue, but I do fear needless clutter.. If this can be done, look nice, and be useful, then I guess it would be ok. -- Ned Scott 07:05, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
I noticed you don't have pictures of The Nothing or Hope cards, which I do. Just tell me how and I'll give them to you. --Kris/Kris 16:31, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Do they look like the other Card images on the articles? If so, go ahead and upload them to Image:NothingClow.jpg and Image:HopeClow.jpg. If they don't look like the rest, you can email them to me at "crisuskeer at gmail dot com", and I'll see if I can tweak them to have the right quality for Wiki. --Crisu 17:57, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and emailed you the two images. I hope you like them. The only thing is that obviously the Hope card is a Sakura card, threfore it has different decorations than the clow cards on your article, I hope that's not a problem. I think you'll quite like The Nothing Card image! --[Kris/Kris]] 08:17, 16 June 2006
Awesome. These work. They're uploaded now. Thanks! ^_^ ..Yeah, it being a Sakura Card doesn't matter. The nameless card is also a Sakura Card. --Crisu 23:34, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
If you look up to the top of the page I linked to a set of scans of the cards, the problem is with licensing. Shiroi Hane 22:07, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the help with the card images guys. It's a hassle sometimes.RecklessFire 23:03, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I think the current layout is quite nice. Right now every image is ____CCS2.jpg. It looks like there's an entire set called ____CCS.jpg that consists of larger versions of the 2's. I'd happily switch the images over, as they will look better (when scaled down) than the current full-size ones. But a URL from another site is pretty clearly visible on them, so my concern now is with licensing and whatnot. I guess all we need is that webmaster's permission, and we can copyright it on Wiki as either a TV screenshot or promotional artwork. I know that they're scans from a collectible Clow Card set, as I own one myself, but I'm not sure how to cite that specifically except as "promotional artwork." ...If we vote on the larger images, I'll put the smaller ones up for deletion. --Crisu 00:02, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Comment: Unless you have wierd TV sets where you come from, those are not screenshots. Shiroi Hane 12:07, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Yesh there are bigger pics. I loaded them and then realized that they were bigger than I had thought, so I resized the images and re-loaded them.Oh, yeah those card images are from another website, I can't remember what I was thinking when I put screenshot on there. I have contacted the webmaster about the use of the images and I am awaiting a response.RecklessFire 13:57, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I was wondering if I could use three of your card images for my user page (Bubble,Wood and Silent) I will understand if you don't want me to. :Bubble bunny 14:32, 21 June 2006 (UTC) 15:36, 20 June 2006. (UTC)
You can't use fair use images on userpages. -- Ned Scott 02:37, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

The Nameless

Should it be properly named "The Nameless" so it conforms to all the other cards, or should it be left as a general term: "the nameless card"? --Crisu 04:59, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

My opinion is that it should be left as a general term. It's not named "Nameless", it is nameless, and thus it shouldn't be consistent with the naming scheme of the other cards. --EmperorBrandon 05:08, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Agree. Plau 12:26, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I have edited the entry to make it more apparent the card has no name. I lowercased all cases of "nameless", put the heading in parentheses (to further show "nameless card" is not an actual name), and began the description with "this unnamed card". Think that works well enough? --EmperorBrandon 20:03, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Works for me. I brought up the topic after seeing a person change it from "the nameless card" to "The Nameless" and was curious as to what to do. --Crisu 21:41, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I live in the UK and I don't get all this stuff about the Nameless Card. I watched the cardcaptors episode when it was created on TV(Revelations part 2) and when we first saw it, Sakura called it 'Hope', it even said hope on the bottom of the card. Then suddenly they bring out a second movie, the card formely known as Hope is now nameless and the new Hope Card is simply the Star Card version of The Nothing. Is it just me or is anyone else confused? --[User: Kris/Kris]] 8:31, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
The possible reason why it is called "The Hope" in the dub is because somewhere along the line (due to the need to be neutral here and the fact that i don't know all the detials) Nelvana didn't sign themselves up to dub the second CCS movie (Hence different voice actors), so they essentally wrote there own ending for it. Good idea in my opion since they were under pressure curtosy of fanboi and their inciters. -Dynamo_ace Talk
Thanks for the explanation. It's a shame that so much was lost in the English dub of Cardcaptors. But still a great series. I wonder if it'll ever come back. By the way, if Sakura created the nameless card, does that mean she can create any star card she wants? [User:Kris/Kris] 11.36, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
It's not likely going to come back, since Pioneer/Geneon has finished releasing DVDs with original, subtitled episodes. Anime fans will look at videos of the dub online and immediately settle for the subs. Non-anime fans and parents who are looking for a simple TV show for kids will likely just buy the loose Cardcaptors DVDs and VHS tapes floating on eBay. There isn't enough demand to bring it back to television, much less a re-dubbing. ...And I think it is an agreed fact among a majority of fans that Sakura can create new Cards of her own. She has completely succeeded Clow, who made 53, so I wouldn't be surprised if she created a few of her own in her lifetime. --Crisu 12:48, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

nominating Clow Cards as a featured list?

You guys have been doing great on these articles! I think they have the potential to become a featured list. Some additional work would need to be done before the nomination. See Wikipedia:What is a featured list?.

For one, all the clow card images need to be smaller for the fair use claim (as in, the image file itself. I think the size used on the articles are ok). "It is believed that the use of low-resolution images of character artwork.." Maybe about 150px wide by whatever for their max. Also, each image, clow cards and screen shots, fair use claims, descriptions, and sources (even if obvious, it would still need written out) Wikipedia:Image use policy, Wikipedia:Fair use#Images:

"Please also add the source from which the image has been reproduced. Remember there is no "general rule" about fair use, each fair use must be explained and a rationale must be established for that specific use (in other words every page that uses the image will have a distinct rationale for using the image on that page even though fair use is claimed on the image page)."

For example::

This image is a scan taken from promotion cards included with the manga. The image was scanned in and uploaded by <user> on <date>. It is an image of "The Arrow", a fictional card / character from the anime Cardcaptor Sakura. It us being used under fair use to identify the "card" as a character and element for the Cardcaptor Sakura related articles, Clow Cards, Clow Cards: A-F, Clow Cards: G-R, Clow Cards: S-Z. The copyright is held by CLAMP.''

For many of these, I understand that AncientNova scanned them in and uploaded them? I can go ahead and start tagging them with the information for the one's he uploaded if this is so. The Screenshots I don't think really need info about who took the screen shot, since the source is easier to determine.

We'll also need a references section. I think this can be simplified by citing the manga and anime and saying in this section "see above for episode number appearance or manga appearance". I don't think we'd have to repeat the information in both the article text and at the bottom this way.

It might sound like a lot, but really these are just tweaks. I'll gladly help out with the boring image tagging, and anywhere else I can. We also might want to do a request for review or something as well. -- Ned Scott 00:44, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

What happened?!

I hate to say it but this article has suddenly fallen into despair. It looks badly edited with everything in one big mess. Why are all the Clow Cards suddenly all on one page, badly sorted and edited. It makes this articles (or articles) look poorly done. What happened? Evilgidgit (talk) 12:24, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I have no strong feelings one way or another, but I do see your point. I remember it being discussed somewhere about trying it out, but I'm not really sure. It wouldn't bother me to re-split them. -- Ned Scott 04:34, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
I dont like it either, the page is too long, looks much better when it is split into the four pages. Also all of the Images have been removed which are fairly essential to be able to see the characters, i think it should be changed back into the original pages - plus the images put back. Joseph mitchell9 (talk) 20:35, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree, as per project Comics, the Clow Cards are intensely visual characters with their visual aspect being strongly representative of their characteristics and of the element that they are anthropomorphizing. Thus, a number of low resolution images used as object examples is perfectly in order. It doesn't breach no-decoration regs. - perfectblue (talk) 19:27, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Anthropomorphic characters

I think that it should be explained that the Clow Cards are all anthropomorphic characters, therefore their visual appearance is highly representative of both their character and the part that they play in the franchise.

This allows an image of each individual character to be used as an object illustration that is essential for describing the character. Images would only violate FU regs IF multiple images were used OUT OF CONTEXT. For example, you couldn't put various pictures of a single card in multiple poses.

perfectblue (talk) 12:26, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

FU 3 (a) and 8

FU 3(a) dictates that a single image may be used only a limited number of times and then only on pages relevant pages. 3(a) does not cover instances where a single image is used a single time to describe a single character on a page that happens to contain other images.

Simply put, in order to violate 3(a) these images would need to be used multiple times out of context. For example if you were to add them to episode guides.

FU 8 allows for an image to be used as an object example where having a visual representation is important to the reader's understanding of the subject. In this case the subject is a comic book/animation character. Comic book and animation characters are inherently visual. Their style and design are important as they demonstrate the artist's intent in designing the character and the way in which they intend it to be received. This goes double in the case of the Clow Cards as they are anthropomorphic representations of elemental forces or abstract concepts. Having an image of them aids the readers understanding in compliance with 8.

Images would only violate 8 if they were used decoratively and out of context. For example, having shots of the same Clow Card from three different angles would violate 8. Having a single shot wouldn't.

perfectblue (talk) 20:51, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Normally, I agree, but the problem comes when you combined the issue with WP:FICT. Even though they are characters in the show, it might not be necessary for Wikipedia to show what everyone looks like, at least not without some more real-world information. However, we do have a fair argument for having around 8 or so images (from my estimate in the previous discussion) to demonstrate the artwork and character examples. -- Ned Scott 00:37, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Pictures of Clow Cards

I don't know if it has been discussed or not already, but can I possibly put up pictures of each Clow Card? I think there should be pictures of the Clow Cards and if you don't think it's appriote to put pictures up that's alright. Fukoma (talk) 06:52, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

A little bit above you can see it's being discussed. All the images are copyrighted, which can only be used under "fair use", plus with additional restrictions from WP:NFC. A few images would be ok to show some examples, so feel free to give any input on which ones you feel would be good. -- Ned Scott 08:30, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
I suggest the nameless, nothing, and hope card should be put it. The mirror could also be put in showing the change in her hair from the ribbon. If we could add more than that, I suggest we add light, dark, and the five elements. The article also mentions that the cards have a specific sign either the sun or moon. Any chance that could be shown? 71.133.121.230 (talk) 08:23, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't think all the Clow Card images should be included, as well. You see, I've seen some sites that used to do this, but took them down after people used them to make bootleg copies of the cards. Maybe a few would suffice. As the above commenter said, the Mirror Card is quite notable, as well as the main elemental cards, and the Light and Dark cards. There aren't any particular images used for either the sun or moon signs, though. Sang'gre Habagat (talk) 10:44, 22 January 2008 (UTC)


Standard Format?

I propose that there be a standardized format for each Clow Card's entry. The paragraphs seem rambling and this organization would substantially help people find information more easily, and it would make editing easier and more concise. Maybe we can add the following: First Appearance, How It Was Captured, Subsequent Appearances, The Card's Nature (characteristics, appearance, behavior), Which Element it Falls Under, among others. What do you think? Sang'gre Habagat (talk) 10:44, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree that there should be some sort of system to it all. In fact I've recently been trying to re-organize some of the information, but none of my tests have pleased me so far. There's a lot of information to sort. I think there should also be a description of the card's various uses included, since, especialy in the early series, Sakura used many of the cards in strange ways. The details of the card's transformation into a Sakura Card should also be added, and I think it would also be a good idea to mention weither it appeared in the manga, or just the anime.--3loodlust (talk) 23:50, 22 January 2008 (UTC)