Talk:Cloudesley Shovell

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[edit] Shovel descendants

I would like to contact the author of the recent article on Cloudesley Shovel - who states that he is direct descendant of Sir Cloudesley. Our family have always been told that we are descended from his family, and have the name Shovel in our family tree, but need more information.Bloomsbu 05:26, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)


Does he have any connection to Clodsley Shovel the Mole, the Narnia character by C. S. Lewis?

Don't know about the Narnia character, but I am curious. How is it the author states that he is a direct descendant in the male line if there were only two daughters? Bloomsbu 12:34, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I should clarify that the information I have about Sir Cloudesley Shovel's parents comes from books and internet. These show he had two daughters and do not mention a son, thus I am unable to verify whether the sentence "The Shovell family survived and there remain five direct descendants in the male line, one of whom is the present author." is correct or not. The sentence was added by 195.195.166.41, so questions about the source for details of a son of Sir Cloudesley Shovel should be directed to that user. Some years ago when the treasure from the Association was being recovered from the wreck there was considerable interest in tracing any possible descendants who might make a claim. Descendants from his two daughters were traced through a number of generations. I have details. Op. Deo 16:45, 22 July 2005 (UTC)


I have tried to contact user 195.195.166.41, but am new to Wikipedia and haven't had any luck. I was led to believe from my Grandmother that her mother was a direct descendant from Sir Cloudesley - maiden name Jane Foott-Shovel. My Uncle was named Cloudesley, and also the street where we lived in Australia is Cloudesley St - after our supposed ancestor. I would like to know where to search for more information to find a link to Jane Foott-Shovel - as our information on Sir Cloudesley seems to be dead wrong - I understood that he was illegitimate. So your mention of his parentage was a revelation. Bloomsbu 00:32, 23 July 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Major tidy up

As a result of studying various references including wills, I felt a major tidy up was required. The remaining issue is the name, for which many different versions exist. I have reported evidence showing that it should be SHOVELL rather than SHOVEL. This means the page title needs changing - I am not sure how best to do this just at present. But if no one objects, or if no one makes the change I will find out myself how to do it.Op. Deo 15:47, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

The case for the move to Cloudesley Shovell is as follows:

  • There is complete confusion on the web. A Google search world wide gives 900 hits on Cloudesley Shovel and 600 hits on Cloudesley Shovell. However a Google search on UK only reverses the postion, giving 247 hits on 136 sperate sites for Cloudesley Shovell against 227 hits on 79 seperate sites for Cloudesley Shovel. This later number includes Wikipedia and about 10 mirrors of the Wikipedia article carring the Shovel spelling. So you could say the UK web votes 2:1 by number of web sites for Cloudesley Shovell. However, I consider much more important than this number is what the man, his family and his biographers use, as listed in the following bullets.
  • In the 1701 will of Sir Cloudesley Shovell, he both signs and spells his name as Shovell.
  • In the 1653 will of his father, John Shovell, both his father's and Cloudesley's surnames are spelt Shovell.
  • In the 1726 will and 1729 codicil of his wife Elizabeth Shovell, she spells and signs her surname Shovell.
  • In the most recent biography Simon Harris uses the spelling Shovell in its title.

--Op. Deo 16:41, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks to the admin who made the move. I have tidied up the links to the article. -- Op. Deo 20:19, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The murder of Cloudesley Shovell is controversial

It seems that your lines about the woman who killed Cloudesley Shovell contradict the information I've just collected from Britannia (see External links). Imiraven 9:05, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Make that information you've just dumped in the article from Britannia with little thought to copyright and you're closer to the mark. Hence my RV of the entry. GraemeLeggett 10:40, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Besides the issuing of infringing copyright, one needs to be careful about collecting info from anywhere on the web. I had a look at the source on brittania.com. Interestingly, at about us on the site it says Britannia is published by Britannia.com, LLC, a privately held company incorporated in Delaware, USA. Since it was launched on the Web in April, 1996,... It appears that this site may be commercial and publish editorial articles by its in order to attract surfers. I I have not previously heard of the person who wrote the article, however, it does seem reasonably competent although I would quibble with the bald statement that ships were east of where they thought they were. I have read an analysis of the logbooks from the voyage which shows they were also very considerably to the North. As far as the supposed murder is concerned, the WP article only says that it was said as indeed it was by some authors. Others have dismissed the story for lots of reasons. There are actually a number of very suspect tales to be found on the web about Sir Cloudesley, eg that he was a poor shoemaker's apprentice before going to sea. Another likely myth very recent propagated in the TV series Longitude was that he had a sailor who warned of the navigation error hung. In my view Simon Harris's book is the most thorough recent review of all that has been published on Sir Cloudesley, and I would certainly recommend checking new info against what is in that book. Op. Deo 14:32, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Hello Op. Deo: I red something on the web about Shovell being cursed by a sailor who warned him before the wreck, the article said Shovell hunged that man just because of his impertinence. It sounded more like a Hollywood plot than real history to me, but it was in a history page so it kept me wondering. The last part with his body washed ashore and the robbery by the old woman seems unfortunally much more real to me.

Ruben 07 March 2006

Hello Ruben, Just a tip on formatting -using a space at beginning of a paragraph makes a long box for the text. Use a series of colon punction marks to indent a paragraph. (dont worry it is all arcane!)
Both these stories did surface long ago, but were thought to be ill founded by at least some of the historians. (Especially see the arguments against these stories in the only full modern biograhy of Shovell written by Simon Harris.) Very unfortunately the popular history of science writer, Dava Sobel, chose to repeat the hanging story in her book Longitude which was published in 1995 and this hanging was picked up when the book was turned into a TV series by the BBC. So everyone KNOWS about it. Yet, read Harris and he thinks it very unlikely for all sorts of reasons. It is very interesting to study the navigational article by May which I dont seem to have referenced, but I have notes from it in my notebook. It shows the poor quality of the agreement between the different ships' captains. It almost inconcievable that an uneducated sailor would have be able to work out the latitude etc better than the properly equipped and trained ship's officers even though their standards were modest. Longitude was of course a matter od dead reckoning. However, looking at the error by the conference of the Captains, in many ways the latitude error was more serious than the longitude error. Apparently the TV film portayed Shovell in a very unfavourabe light, but the truth is he was greatly loved by both sailors and officers - almost a Nelson like figure in this respect-- Op. Deo 22:19, 7 March 2006 (UTC)