Talk:Close Quarters Battle

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CQB as a term has been replaced by the military almost entirely by MOUT. The article should be merged. (THIS IS INCORRECT FACTUALLY. CQB HAS NOT BEEN REPLACED BY MOUT, BUT IS A COMPONENT OF A MOUT MISSION. A UNIT TRAINS IN CQB IN ORDER TO HELP ACCOMPLISH A MOUT MISSION. AUTHOR - THE GUY WHO WROTE NEARLY 95% OF THE NEW STUFF HERE IN WIKIPEDIA'S CQB SECTION)

Also the link saying only military SF units are trained in CQB has been removed, as it is factually totally wrong.

This article needs some serious working. Swatjester 09:59, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Disagree: Although this may be correct for the US Army it is not universally the case and it is important to acknowledge uses by the USMC and other military forces around the world. CQB is still very much in use within the current and historical literature. Also, current US Army manuals tend to focus on platoon or larger groupings, not squads or fire teams. There are also non-urban uses of CQB. Rorybowman 04:34, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

incorrect. The army focuses on MOUT at the team level, hence the current tactic of a 4 man flood. Swatjester 06:17, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

The practice of a single tactic by one branch at a particular time is not an argument. CQB began with military usage but has now been expanded appreciably to include applications in police and corrections, as well as military applications outside of urban warfare such as hostage rescue, vehicle boarding, extrication and a variety of military operations other than war (MOOTW). - Rorybowman 14:48, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

And yet Mêléeit's not significantly different enough from MOUT to warrant it's own article.Swatjester 19:42, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 ? 2 Merge CQC into this article 3 This feels like a manual that got picked up from somewhere else 4 Merge mêlée into this article 5 SWAT-style

[edit]  ?

Why was my redirect to Urban warfare reverted? Sam Spade 15:53, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge CQC into this article

I think this article and CQC should be merged. Any thoughts on this? Isaac Crumm 07:40, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I second this. They're almost identical. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.207.234.69 (talk) 21:16, August 21, 2007 (UTC)

Peter Vasiljev 04:08, 26 August 2007 (UTC): Thirded. Putting up a "merge" template.

[edit] This feels like a manual that got picked up from somewhere else

I'm a bit worried. The Urban Warfare page is good, but large portions of this feel more like a SWAT manual than an informative dictionary entry on CQB. Phrases such as these illustrate my point:

"Remember that CQB takes place in a three dimensional environment; the threat may be in front, behind, left, right, above, or below. By being aware of the surroundings as well as the movements of the other operators' gaps and vulnerabilities can be minimized."

"Each individual will clear the immediate threat area, within two meters, in the direction that he is moving."

"Remember that controlled fire is critical for the safety of innocents and operators. Target discrimination is mandatory."

I Googled select phrases and didn't find anything, but I'm still troubled. Wikipedia isn't a manual, so if this is orginal, it needs a bit of reworking into an encyclopaedia friendly format. Some of the jargon could also do with trimming - phrases like "operators" are possibly a bit technical for a general purpose encyclopaedia.

I'll poke at it in a bit if no one responds.

ManicParroT 03:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Feel free to edit it, I'll be around to help if needed. Most of the article as it is in its present state has been written by Ghostscg (talk). He has actually completely rewritten the article (which was a little more than a stub), and while he added a lot of information, it was completely written with an inappropriate tone and formatting. It was actually much worse before, with a lot of second person

I've added two cleanup tags (inappropriate tone and inappropriate person) to the article so hopefully more people will start working it. Should we also move this article from Close Quarters Battle to Close-quarters battle? —Squalla 15:04, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Additionally, we need to make a distinction between close-quarters battle (CQB) and close-quarters combat (CQC). The two terms are sometimes used interchageably within some contexts, though they are not quite the same thing. I believe CQC could be considered "part" of CQB, in that CQC more specifically refers to hand-to-hand combat rather than any type of confrontation (e.g. firefights) in a confined space. —Squalla 15:15, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

If the article were inverted and the detailed section on police-style dynamic entry were a subsection that showed a common implementation of CQB that would solve some fo the problems. This would leave the detailed example but place it into a larger context (and imply how similar tactics might be applied in other CQB situations such as high-risk cell extraction, psychiatric wards and boarding parties). Such a detailed example is nice, but is not the entirety of CQB. Rorybowman 02:05, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge mêlée into this article

• much of the content at melee could be merged here, however Melee is a particular medieval type of tourney fighting. Better to create Melee (medieval) and disambig the modern and gaming info here. I'd be happy to expand the medieval page, when I get time. Gwinva 20:55, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

• I do not think that Mêlée should be merged into this article because it is a term which has been used for many centuries and has little to do with the specific meaning given to this article. As for a specific "Melee (medieval)" why. Are we to have dozens of short articles for each type of warfare? Afterall there have been Mêlées throughout the history of warfare. CQB should be mentioned in the Mêlée articled as a paragraph or a section with a main article template to this article. --Philip Baird Shearer 17:30, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with you Philip. I realise my comment above was unclear, so I'll clarify. I don't think the articles should be merged. Perhaps there is some overlap in the modern and gaming, in which case direct (or link) those here. Retain at least the historical context on the original page, since it has a specific meaning in a medieval context (and probably, as Philip says, in other historical contexts). Gwinva 20:50, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

• I do not think that Mêlée should be merged into this article either. Some concepts may be the same but CQB is a more modern tactic that has come with totally different goals and only in the last 40 years. Perhaps mention should be made in the Melee article but CQB should have its own space.

• They should not be merged, melée can happen on an open battlefield, and CQB is mostly inside of buildings. Is seems a consensus, I think the merge tag could be removed.

[edit] SWAT-style

I'd say to define who are the a) foremost and b) most widespread practitioners of CQB we need to understand what is necessary. To my understanding there are two styles of CQB:

(I came up with these names/styles myself, BTW, so if you've never heard of them, no biggie.)

- infantry CQB Its purpose is to take and hold ground - the infantry's raison d'etre in general.

- police / antiterrorist / humanitarian CQB Its purpose is "to save lives" (LAPD SWAT motto/purpose, if I'm not mistaken):

- POSITIVELY identify threats
- remove threats (get compliance with commands, then restrain)
- kill threats with POSITIVE AIM (if removal not possible)
- do all of this as fast as possible, no mistakes, especially no dead hostages
- this is all preliminary to disarming bombs or clearing way for bomb squads, etc etc

On the other hand, "PURE" CQB "skillz" may be said to be that which enables someone to defeat someone else's capability to make war on their butt, the fastest, merely in close quarters.

Anyway. Food for thought. Or just flame me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.180.216.131 (talk) 09:17, 22 September 2007 (UTC)