Talk:Close-mid central rounded vowel

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[edit] Swedish

Is the Swedish vowel inrounded or outrounded? kwami 21:42, 2005 July 26 (UTC)

[edit] Australian/New Zealand English vowel

Why is this not an New Zealand English vowel, as the sources (see Further reading) for this vowel in the New Zealand English article disagrees.
And why is it an Australian English vowel when the sources (see References & External link) in the Australian English phonology article for that vowel disagree with this? --203.94.135.134 (talk) 22:45, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

The further reading section of NZE is all dictionaries; such phonetic detail in a dictionary would be surprising. I haven't seen any of them; if they go into detail about the vowel quality then I'm certainly game to accept that information but New Zealand English currently has citation issues so I've gone with a source that argues the vowel in NZE is actually more front, which is why I've included it in close-mid front rounded vowel.

Australian English phonology has an actual vowel quadrangle that shows the position of this vowel. The two sources cited in this article apparently argue that it's rounded. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 22:55, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Maybe, but the source at Australian English Transcription Practice Exercises (see example 9) has the transcription for purse as [pʰɜːs]. --203.94.135.134 (talk) 23:26, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm, and we can't say that that the Practice Exercises are afraid of transcribing narrowly. Well, I guess we have a bit of conflict among our sources. Not sure how to reconcile that. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 23:56, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Ugh! Cox & Palethorpe (2007) don't seem to weigh in on the matter either! — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 21:24, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

How do you mean? --203.94.135.134 (talk) 22:12, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

They use ɜ, put it in the close-mid area on their chart, and don't talk about it. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 22:32, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Australian English revised style IPA transcriptions, just the same as pre-revised style transcriptions, use /3(:)/ for the NURSE vowel. This doesn't mean that the vowel is unrounded, it means that the vowel F1/F2 values imply that the vowel is not high, not low, not clearly front and not clearly back. They're based on an earlier IPA transcription style in which "3" was used to spell any central vowel that is not described (for one reason or another), as "@". The same symbol is generally continued because it was ambiguous about whether the vowel is rounded or not.

In AusE, the vowel is rounded by some and not rounded by others. That's pretty much the most definitive statement I've found in the literature. (I have a rounded vowel, for instance — impressive for a bird.) My ear suggests that the rounded vowel is further front than the unrounded vowel and more common; but perhaps there's two different unrounded values, one of which sounds the same (to my AusE-hearing ear) as the rounded vowel.

In NZ, the vowel is similarly sometimes rounded, sometimes not; but if memory serves literature was saying this earlier and implies if not says the vowel is more frequently unrounded. The NURSE vowel isn't one of the sounds that let you know you're speaking to a Kiwi as opposed to another Australian, though... I know less about NZE than I do about AusE, though.

In no case do I personally think the close-mid central rounded vowel is a good description or symbol of the vowel; I think the front rounded vowel is better for the rounded AusE and NZE values. But no literature I have seen has ever made a study based no articulation, it's always based on F1 & F2. This can't tell you whether the vowel is rounded or not, and rounding is as good as a bit of retraction for lowering F2.

My vote, therefore: Don't mention either here, or on other pages similar. The lists shouldn't need to be exhaustive and the Australian and New Zealand vowels are far from standard examples of these sounds. We might feel it necessary to point out that the AusE/NZ vowel is not (necessarily) the same as the RP vowel /3:/, because that *is* a standard example.

It's always hard making water hold forms...

—Felix the Cassowary 06:09, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Funny, cuz the RP vowel is actually mid, not open-mid, at least according to Roach (2004). — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 07:07, 14 January 2008 (UTC)