Talk:Clock Tower, Palace of Westminster

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See also Talk:Big Ben for older discussion.

Contents 1 St Stephen's Tower 2 Once the biggest clock?? 3 Messiah 4 Why I can't hear the bell on the radio? 5 Minor contradiction: Bell weight? 6 Gare de Lyon 7 Changing the time on big ben. 8 Cultural References 9 Vandalism 10 Leaning 11 Requested move 11.1 Survey 11.2 Discussion 11.2.1 Counter Proposal 12 Redirect from Big Ben 13 Query over size 14 Please correct the cast year of Big Ben 15 Cut-and-paste damage made to article repaired 16 Common usage 17 Images 18 In Popular Culture Removal 19 Culture/Cultural Significance

[edit] St Stephen's Tower

The St. Stephen's Tower / [[Clock Tower with a friend of mine. After contacting the Palace of Westminster, I discovered that no-one at the Palace (including the staff that work in the clock tower itself) refer to it as St. Stephen's Tower, and that it is simply referred to as The Clock Tower. This is reflected on the UK Parliament website [1].

There are three towers in the Palace of Westminster - The Clock Tower to the north, Victoria Tower to the south, and the Central Tower above the central corridor

I'm trying to go through all pages that link to Big Ben at present, avoiding links to disambiguation pages. Most link to this page, as they refer to the clock tower. However, some refer to the bell, which is the correct usage. As the bell itself has no article, I propose to split that section off to form Big Ben (bell). Any comments? — Tivedshambo (talk to me/look at me/ignore me) —  09:04, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

• If you are going to do that, I would suggest putting the article at Big Ben and moving the disambiguation page that's currently there to Big Ben (disambiguation). Anyone else have any thoughts? Gasheadsteve 12:36, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the suggestion to move the page to Big Ben, which is the most common name --Astrokey44 09:02, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Once the biggest clock??

What about the clock face of St. Peter, Zürich 28.5 feet in diameter, installed in 1534 ?? Stumps 15:46, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Messiah

The quarter-bells are supposed to play a tune from Handel's Messiah. This claim is featured in the exhibition within the tower itself. Can anyone actually point to the movement of the oratorio they come from? I'm pretty familiar with the work, and the tune doesn't ring a bell (sorry!). David Brooks 16:26, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, never mind. I just read Westminster Quarters. David Brooks 16:28, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Its reputed to come from the aria "I know that my Redeemer Liveth". The original chime was used at St Mary in Cambridge. Edmund Beckett Dennsison, the designer of the Great Clock was at Cambridge and would have know the St Mary's chime well; it was almost certainly chosen by him. Chris McKay

[edit] Why I can't hear the bell on the radio?

I'm a Chinese and just know little about the Big Ben. Excited when I found the strikes can be heard on BBC, however, I can't hear the strike hours but "Bee, Bee...". HairyWombat 23:32, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

And if you listen on digital radio, don't forget that the time is delayed - so making it a little pointless! Phooto 11:51, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Minor contradiction: Bell weight?

Well, there seams to be a minor contradiction regarding the big bell in the article. In section "Clock faces", it's stated that "[...] its metal was recast as the 12.5 tonne (13.8 ton) bell which is in use today.", whereas in the section "The main bell" the bell is said it "weighs 13 metric tonnes and is 2.2 metres high.". - So, which statement is correct? MikeZ 10:52, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

After the weight was given to be 13.5 tonnes by the cited reference, I changed the ton value to 14.9 ton. - Please review, as I'm not at all used to imperial measurements. Thanks, MikeZ 13:21, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gare de Lyon

This article claims that the clock tower of the Gare de Lyon in Paris, France is "inspired by" the Palace of Westminster Clock Tower. Unlike the other tower listed as "inspired by" the Westminster Clock Tower, the Peace Tower in Ottawa, the Gare de Lyon clock tower does not look particularly similar at all, other than the fact that they are both turret clock towers. Is there any evidence that the Paris tower was actually inspired by the Westminster one? --thirty-seven 09:32, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Changing the time on big ben.

Anyone any idea how they change the time on big ben in the spriong and autumn??

Thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.141.184.98 (talk) 20:24, 26 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Cultural References

Does the animated version used at the start of the "Have I Got News For You" title sequence count? Mittfh 11:55, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

This page keeps getting vandalised. I applied for semi protection, as did DrKiernan a day or two later, but it was denied. Does anyone know the best course of action to protect the page?

[edit] Leaning

I'm unhappy with this section - "Due to ground conditions present since construction, the tower leans slightly to the north-west, by roughly 220 millimetres (8.66 inches). Due to thermal effects it oscillates annually by a few millimetres east and west [1]."

A tower's lean should be measured in degrees not milimeters. The distance given is meaningless unless it states at which point the measurement is taken. A small lean at the bottom becomes a very large one at the top. It sounds like a lot and is a nice headline grabbing figure but it doesn't really mean anything. Am I being picky? I think we have a right to expect better from an excylopedia. RogMcDog 13:01, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I've clarified and referenced that section now... Paulbrock 10:25, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Although there is a majority of opinion in favour of the move, it is not overwhelming, and much of the support was admittedly reluctant. Many contributors are adamant that the tern "Big Ben" should only be used for the bell itself. It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. --Stemonitis 15:08, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Counter Proposal

How about naming the page either Clock Tower (Big Ben) or Big Ben Clock Tower, including both names in the title?
I'm proposing this because even though Big Ben is actually the main bell I do concede that many people do mistakenly call the Clock Tower "Big Ben". The first proposed name — Clock Tower (Big Ben) — is similar to that used in some of the pages on the UK parliament's website, and of those pages that include both names they detail both the Clock Tower and Big Ben. The same with this article, as it also includes details on both the Clock Tower and Big Ben. – Marco79 12:53, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Interesting proposals, and either would be far better than the current situation, where a pedantic and obscure official name is being used in preference to a well-established common name. But they would still be in violation of WP:UCN.

The above debate was closed as no consensus because, while a majority supported a decision that is in accordance to the guidelines, a substantial minority expressed a strong opinion that is counter to the guidelines. I'm not sure where to go from here. Andrewa 16:12, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I certainly agree that regardless of the fact that "Saint Stephen's Tower" is the official name, the clocktower is known globally as Big Ben and to use the correct name could provoke confusion for those who have always known it to be referred to as "Big Ben". I think it would be worthy to hold another decision on the matter.-Kingpin1055 13:07, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I can't see how it could cause confusion. It clearly says in the article introduction that the tower is often mistakenly referred to as Big Ben, with that name bold. So any reader with half a brain would know they're reading the article they're after. I also don't see any value in repeating the discussion/vote at this stage, so soon after the above one - presumably the same people would make the same contributions and therefore it would end the same way. There is, however, an ongoing discussion on the wider topic of giving more weight to official names at WT:NC#Incorrect name. Hopefully we can get a change made to reflect factual accuracy rather than popularity. After all, - supposedly at least - Wikipedia is not a democracy/-- Waggers 14:52, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Just to be picky, "Saint Stephen's Tower" is an entirely different tower, see this, which is also referenced from the article. And to get back on track, I like the fact that WT:NC#Incorrect name is being under centralized discussion. -- Jao 16:27, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I should've clarified that I doubt as many people search for "Saint Stephen's Tower" compared to "Big Ben".

I'd agree with either of these. I don't think the official name is as clear cut as some in this discussion have claimed; for example, the Images of England (listed buildings register) site seems to refer to the tower as both 'Big Ben' & 'the clock tower of Big Ben': [2] Espresso Addict 11:48, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

This debate is grown cold, but I still wanted to add my view. It would really be absurd to me, if I came to an article called "Big Ben" which then told me "Ben Ben is not actually the name of the thing". What am I to think of an encyclopedia that tells me it's own categorization is wrong? In a related note, I wonder what's in print encyclopedias on this? I'll bet its a "redirect" there, too. Eaglizard 00:40, 19 September 2007 (UTC) NB: On the other hand, Eric Blair is a redirect to a pseudonym, George Orwell, so go figure. Eaglizard 05:03, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Redirect from Big Ben

I note that, despite the majority above being in favour of moving the article to Big Ben, the redirect there has now been pointed to Big Ben (disambiguation).

ISTM that there's a deeper issue here. Andrewa 16:12, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

This seems to have been pointed back to this article now. Eaglizard 00:38, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Query over size

The article contains two statements which I should like someone to check for me

The Clock Tower is the world's largest four-faced, chiming turret clock

and

A clock tower similar to Big Ben is the Joseph Chamberlain Memorial Clock Tower of the University of Birmingham, England. Often referred to as "Old Tom" or "Old Joe", it is around three quarters of the size of Big Ben. Its four faces are each seventeen feet in diameter.

Firstly, from where is the claim that the clock is the world's largest turret clock sourced. The Joseph Chamberlain Memorial Clock Tower (100m) is actually taller than the clock tower (96.3m), so both statements are thus incorrect. I will correct them unless someone provides me with some evidence to the contrary. Are we perhaps referring to the size of the clock face; Clock Tower has diameter of 23ft against JCMCT's diameter of 17ft. If this is the cause of the statement, then it really needs tidying up! Also, where did the "Old Tom" reference to the JCMCT come from; my experience at the University and from Wikipedia is that there is no such nickname. --PWakeley 09:32, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please correct the cast year of Big Ben

see: At 9'-0" diameter, 7'-6" high, and weighing in at 13 tons 10 cwts 3 qtrs 15lbs (13,760 Kg), the hour bell of the Great Clock of Westminster - known worldwide as 'Big Ben' - is the most famous bell ever cast at Whitechapel. Big Ben was cast on Saturday 10th April 1858. http://www.whitechapelbellfoundry.co.uk/bigben.htm --Wdew (talk) 21:59, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cut-and-paste damage made to article repaired

I have attempted to repair the damage done to this article by 74.67.4.45 when s/he did a cut-and-paste move on 6 January 2008.

I repaired it by doing a cut-and-paste move myself (I know that's bad), but most of the changes made to the article since the cut-and-paste were either vandalism or to suit the article title, and so I don't think the histories needed merging, but make-up your own mind, see here. --203.94.135.134 (talk) 22:26, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Common usage

We need to callt eh clock by its common use name which is Big Ben. can we request a move or will that stir things up. We cannot claim that common usage is mistaken, that is not our function, looks like some wierd stuff going on. Can anyone clarify. Thanks, SqueakBox 22:33, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

The clock is *NOT* Big Ben, Big Ben is the nickname of the Great Bell. "Common" usage can be considered a mistake if used in the wrong way, if the meaning is not understood or interpret correctly. Requesting another move would definitely stir things up again. As quoted from UK Parliament – History of the Clock Tower (Big Ben):

"Isn't that Big Ben?"... "Yes. Although the Clock Tower is often referred to as Big Ben, this is actually the nickname of the bell housed within the Clock Tower – and Big Ben's official name is the Great Bell."

I have interpreted this statement to mean that it is a "mistake" to call the clock tower "Big Ben". Obviously there are some that take offence at the use of the word "mistakenly", so in the interest of understanding, I've removed "mistakenly" from the text and replaced it with "referred to" as used in the statement above. --203.94.135.134 (talk) 23:55, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Images

Recently the featured picture Image:Clock Tower - Palace of Westminster, London - September 2006.jpg was removed from the article and replaced with Image:Clock Tower - Palace of Westminster, London - May 2007.jpg (a current featured picture candidate). Whilst they both show terrific artistic and technical merit personally I prefer the original photo for the following reasons:

• The colour of the sky in the new image appears quite harsh, especially around the area of the clock face.
• The angle in the new picture makes the body of the tower look quite flat and 2D.
• It is possible to see greater detailing of the exterior of the tower in the old picture (because of the angle and shadowing)
• The previous picture is a better representation of the normal weather conditions around the tower.
• The previous picture is of a (marginly) higher resolution.

Any thoughts? Guest9999 (talk) 21:03, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

No doubts: the original is better, for all the reasons offered by User:Guest9999. --Old Moonraker (talk) 22:06, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I prefer the original, the slanted lighting angle makes the relief of the masonry stand out, thus higher enc. --Janke | Talk 08:29, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

A new version of the original image has now been uploaded (Image:Clock Tower - Palace of Westminster, London - September 2006-2.jpg). It's brightened up a bit (don't know the technical stuff) but otherwise is pretty much identical. Guest9999 (talk) 17:40, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

• I took another photo the other day which I will endeavour to upload in the next 24-48 hours. Its from a slightly more off-centre angle than either of these and may be preferential. Diliff | (Talk) (Contribs) 17:52, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Following the closing of Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Big Ben on blue sky I've reinserted the original image - it's featured it should be in an article and I think it has greater encyclopaedic value. Guest9999 (talk) 17:06, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

• • Thanks. I do think though that there was potential consensus for the updated version of that image in the FPC nomination, but given how late it was introduced, a lot of the people who prefered the one with blue sky did not have the opportunity to change their vote to the updated version. I'll renominate but it is my preference to replace the old version as I think it is a bit dull and not as representative of the conditions that day. Diliff | (Talk) (Contribs) 18:01, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] In Popular Culture Removal

This section had devolved into a list of sightings rather than any kind of analysis of Big Ben's role as an iconic symbol in popular culture. Popular culture sections do not exist to list every single last solitary reference to an object--they exist to describe that object's importance as a cultural symbol. This section was out of control and beyond repair and should be rewritten from scratch (as prose) if it is to be included in the future. TallNapoleon (talk) 07:14, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• Thank you for the rewrite :) TallNapoleon (talk) 07:39, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the long overdue pruning. --Old Moonraker (talk) 07:46, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Culture/Cultural Significance

I'll be merging these sections. I don't see any reason for them to be separate. TallNapoleon (talk) 23:08, 22 April 2008 (UTC)