Talk:Clipper

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ships, a project to improve all Ship-related articles. If you would like to help improve this and other Ship-related articles, please join the project. All interested editors are welcome.
Start rated as start-Class on the assessment scale
Top rated as top-importance on the assessment scale
This article is part of WikiProject Maritime Trades, a group of editors working to improve Merchant Shipping topics. To learn more or join the project, please visit the project page.
Start This article has been rated as start-Class on the assessment scale.
Mid This article has been rated as mid-importance on the assessment scale.

Contents

[edit] 20 knots???

" Sometimes these ships could reach 20 knots." I'm very sure this is a mistake. Can anyone vet it or provide data? Modern long-distance racing sailboats average in the neighborhood of 10 knots. I did not remove the text. --Wetman 05:05, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Cutler reports four specific instances of speeds logged at 20 or more, with an 1854 voyage of Sovereign of the Seas logging 22 knots. This is prefixed with three pages of discussion on whether any number over 15-16 knots was plausible, at the end of which he concludes that the logs ought to be believed. I should probably add a paragraph on this point. Stan 08:12, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yes. Even if it were only for me. I was wrong: it is certainly an incredible speed. Good thing I didn't remove the text. What's the highhest speed for a modern catamaran I wonder? --Wetman 10:58, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Heh, you weren't the only one disbelieving - to some extent, I think Cutler was simply unwilling to call the captains liars or incompetent. One of the reasons day's runs are preferred as a measure of performance; more reliably documentable, and not just a momentary fluke of perfect wind and perfect water. New cats seem able to go quite a bit higher; [1] reports an average of nearly 26 knots for Playstation in 2001, with some other sites mentioning 40-knot(!) peaks. But they're "cheating"; no cargo. :-) Stan 16:39, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
All good entries answer the primary questions. The first question about clippers is, "How fast did they go?" So, any sourced text on this heading is grist to the mill. --Wetman 22:27, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
You find 20 knots hard to believe ? Frigates of the beginning of the 19th century were quite often reaching the 18 knots... (with awfully anti-hydrodynamic hull shapes :p ) Rama 13:27, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I don't beleive that, can you give us a source? --John.james 22:25, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

However I just removed the 35 knots top speed from the 'The China Clippers and the Epitome of Sail' section. I guess someone confused wind speed with boat speed here. You find a lot of articles that go up to 20 knots and a bit over what is a great speed already. Take into concideration: the boat is at 35 knots means around 50 knots + wind speed resulting in 8 meters + waves ... rummsmummel 14:39, 16 Nov 2006 (UTC)

But surely that section's current speed of 7 knots is low. Was it vandalized? See the "Speed Again" section of this discussion. Wdfarmer 10:08, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
The 7 knot change first appeared here as far as i can tell. This is certainly far too low. I'm going to change it back to 20 knots and add a citation.--John.james 21:16, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Ok, heres what I found:

There are many ways of judging the speed of a ship: by knots per hour, by day's runs, by port-to-port records. Judged by any test, the American clippers were supreme.

Donald McKay's Sovereign of the Seas reported the highest rate of speed ever acheived by a sailing ship - 22 knots, made while running her easting down to Austrailia in 1854. (John Griffiths' first clipper, the Rainbow, had a top speed of 14 knots... ) There are eleven other instances of a ship's logging 18 knots or over. Ten of these were recorded by American clippers...

Besides the breath-taking 465-mile day's run of the Champion of the Seas, there are thirteen other cases of a ship's sailing over 400 nautical miles in 24 hours...

And with few exceptions all the port-to-port sailing records are held by the American clippers.

– Lyon, Jane D , P.138 Clipper Ships and Captains(1962)New York: American Heritage Publishing

400 miles in a day is 16.6 knots average. Since there are only 14 cases of ships exceeding 400 miles in 24 hours, and only 12 cases of over 18 knots measured, I changed the article to read: "with peak average speeds even exceeding 16 knots" --John.james 22:25, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clippers and economic context

User:AlainV has made a suggestive connection between clipper production and economic bust times. I only query his "1855" instead of the more general bank and market "Crash of 1857". Could the familiar date be substituted, or is there more information? --Wetman 09:46, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Aerial Clippers"

I have never seen this term used elsewhere; as far as I know the term was "flying clipper." Can anyone think of a good reason why I shouldn't change the wording?J S Ayer 02:20, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

"Flying clippers" is right. --Wetman 02:22, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

We don't have to use a word because it's been used before. The trouble with 'flying' is that the big German ships were given names beginning with 'P', Pamir, Preussen and so on. They came to be known as the 'Flying Ps'. The word 'flyer' was frequently used in connection with fast ships. 'Aerial' sees a good adjective for the aeroplanes - that's what they were. (RJP 21:59, 2 February 2006 (UTC))

("Flying clippers" was the common expression nevertheless.) --Wetman 08:35, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I think RJP is talking about the Flying P Line. This line didn't go in for the P theme until later in the 19th century, and perhaps the appeal of the flying appelation was in part because of the earlier context. Theres also the Flying Cloud. I think these usages are prior to the flying P line. --John.james 01:19, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Move this Title to disambiguation

Does anyone else think that this page should be a disambiguation page, with Clipper (sailing) as a separate page? There are enough other topics under "clipper" to warrent this. Fresheneesz 21:19, 2 February 2006 (UTC) the creater is me

[edit] Speed again

"fastest of all sail vessels, with peak average speeds even exceeding 7 knots for endurances over 12 hours."

This doesn't seem all that impressive to me. I know that Stavros S Niarchos once recorded a speed of something like 16 knots and the TSYT brigs are not fast ships. Granted that is peak rather than sustained, but to record only 7 knots average a ship could do that kind of speed for half the time and then sit there motionless for the other half - and I'm pretty sure they weren't in the habit of doing that! PeteVerdon 08:08, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


[edit] City of Adelaide

The reference in Wikipedia to "City of Adelaide (1864)" directly relates to the clipper ship in Scotland facing destruction.

The link as follows needs to be cross indexed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Adelaide_%281864%29

Peter Christopher Convenor Save the Clipper Ship City of Adelaide Action Group www.cityofadelaide.org.au

[edit] Clippered art

I moved "and represented the first pronounced use of color in American advertising art." and deleted

"These cards, slightly larger than today’s postcards, were produced by letterpress and wood engraving on coated card stock. Most clipper cards were printed in the 1850s and 1860s, and represented the first pronounced use of color in American advertising art.
"Relatively few (perhaps 3,500) clipper cards survive today. With their stunning appearance, rarity, and importance as artifacts of nautical, Western, and printing history, clipper cards are highly prized by both private collectors and institutions."

as irrelevant to clippers. Anybody who wants to can move it to advertising, card collecting, or someplace. Trekphiler 01:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notable Ships Section

Perhaps this section should be removed as the body only consists of a link to another article? That link could then be moved to the See Also section.--PlantPerson (talk) 21:51, 24 December 2007 (UTC)