User talk:Clementguardian
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A request: Could you please add some references to your additions regarding Illyrian-Albanian etymologies? Fascinating stuff, for sure, but such things should have a citation. Thanks! Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- P.S.: By the way, are you the same user as Flibjib8 (talk · contribs)? Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:43, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
No I am not the Flibjib8.
The reference is simple. Just look up the Latin-English dictionary and see the translation of the word "Ardea" from Latin into English. Then find any reference about the town of Čapljina and translate it into English, you get something like " the place of Herons" this place indeed is still abundant in Herons, coincidetally.
However, i have a serious issue with this Megasitas person and I hope he will be able to see this 8so we are transparent and Decent). He put a sentence in the article saying the modern Albanian names like Ardian were "imposed" my communists, which leads to a conclusion that they are communist names. This gives a bad connotation to Albanian cultural heritage in general.I understand you might have an issue with an Albanian, but that kind of sentence makes me think that this person hates Albanians, for the sentence gives negative connotation and it does not explain the etymology, therefore it is unnecessary, unless you want to disgrace Albanian culture. My father's name is Ardian and no way he could have been a communist for he is an Albanian from Montenegro. That Megasitas or whatever does not allow me to say what can add to a more objective situation regarding this and other Albanian and Illyrian names. That's a bit unfair, isn't it and highly uncivilised. He says "this is not about democracy". Well , who's a being communist then?
Mega what vere...I'd advise you first of all to learn proper English, and than take chareg of serious things. I do have references English-Latin Dictionary, Bosnia and herzegovina travel guides 8any that mentiones Čapljina ) English Croatian Dictionary.... Do you have some serious problems there, "sir"?!
Oh yes, "sir" it is democracy. What it is not is communism. Where on earth did you see you can stop somebody from saying something that HAS reference. Do you want me to repeat it: English-Latin dictionary for Heron, Serbo-Croatian or Bosnian-English Dictionary for ČAPLJA (HERON), and Albanian telephone directory in combination with John Wilks' book entitled Illyrians.
Now, if you dare and remove what i wrote, i am afraid I will have to take a slightly different course, for which you might reconsider there being democracy on wikipedia. ok? My name is Clement Ardian Ungjini, currently residing in Montenegro. You want to take up the issue, I am waiting, otherwise, I will sue you sir for dissallowing me to defend m yfamily honor, which I am entitled to under the European Convention of Human Rights, "sir"!!!!!!!
[edit] AfD nomination of Šiptar
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[edit] Removals
Megistas, I am sorry but I really see no point in giving negative connotation to a culture that the criticizer does not even belong to. That is highly unethical! What has a communist regime to do with etymology of names? Yes, it may be true that communists instructed and promoted Illyrian names, but the majority of Albanians still prefer giving their children Illyrian names, decades after the vanish of comnmunism in Albania. Besides, majority of non-communist Albanians prefer Illyrian or old Albanian names, like the majority of Albanians outside of Albania(e.g. old Albanian names like: Bardh, Shpend, Dheu, Shpat...).Besides, it is extremely unethical to chose only those references that have negative connotation.It is ok to use them, but it would be fair and Ethically correct to use some positive references too, right?
OK Megisias,maybe you are prone to objectivity, but face it, your sentence mentioning the "communist instruction" is a politization of the article and a neggative connotation to a culture which is not yours. Again, it is UTTERLY UNETHICAL to disgrace and undermine someone elses culture, while not being critical to one's own. Besides, what is an "artificial name"? There are "artificial names" among other cultures. MOST IMPORTATLY, it is the will of (Albanian) people to cultivate Illyrian culture, which was abandoned by others. Are not being little primitive in thinkong you can decide what part of Albanian culture should be shown, and which should not? If you have any ethical values as a HUMAN, you would understand what I am trying to say. To make it simple, I am ok with saying that the communists instructed the giving of Illyrian (pagan) names, but again that one negative connotation should be balanced with another, a positive one (e.g. hoe the name of Bardh, or Bardhyl existed long before the communists among the albanian, and we find the identical name among the Illyrians-Bardhyllis) Ref. "Flaka e Maleve", Edith Durham-High Albania, etc.).
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- The name among illyrians was not Bardhyllis but Bardyllis and toned completely differently then the albanians do.The "h" is also an albanian communism-nationalism addition.The names were Made up this is an encyclopedia and the ref exists.So it will be in.Most names did not exist nothing has been verified as of yet that an Illyrian personal name -not an inherited toponym- was used.Indoeuropean similarities is one thing and actual names are another.There is no Illyrian culture to be cultivated.No such thing.Megistias (talk) 07:57, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
- Is this a joke? "The modern Albanian name of Ardian is inspired by and constructed out of Ardiaei community." Remove it please its pov and ridiculous.Megistias (talk) 08:10, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
- That article is for the tribes not something else.Megistias (talk) 08:12, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
My appologies. I meant to say "inspired by the NAME of Ardiaei" (and their history), because this is what my father told be about his own name. Megakitas, I agree that communists promoted Illyrian culture intentionalyy, but the majority of Albanians of today prefer cultivating the culture of Illyrians, an anceint people that once inhabited the lands they live in today, even if some of them belive they m,ight not even descend from Illyrians directlyor not at all. I kindly ask you to allow for this argument to be entered into the article, in addition to your sentence mentioning communists, because in that way it would be more objective. Otherwise, the thing would be entirely politicized and give only one side of the story, don't you agree. Besides, I belive you can do much better than this, as far as civility and democracy are concerned. Respectfully. Clement
Megasitas, I hope we have reached some sort of civilized compromise on this. Please let me know for I would be trully happy if we did.
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- Wikipedia is not a democracy Also your latest additions are even more weird.You cant justify such things." In other words, the Illyrian cultural heritage is now a part of Albanian cultural identity, whether"??? There is no such thing.The article is not a place to justify such rhetorics.And there is not actual established link of albanians to illyrians just see Origin of Albanians.Megistias (talk) 14:59, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
- And communism did it for nationalistic reasons so your reasoning there is self nullifying.There is no actual link with albanians and they do it now for nationalism as well.Just remove it all.Megistias (talk) 15:01, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Ok, Megasitas, let me know what part you want me to remove, and I will. Just let me know will you at least allow me to say out the truth whcih is a part of a life of every living Albanian I know-they still give their children Albanian names and they are not communists. My grandfather was persecuted by them. Beside, there are many Albanian outside of Albania and they never lived in communist Albanian, and they still give their children Albanian names. Will you at leat allow for this?
Ok, fair enough, but is the topic "the political background of modern Albanian names? Just answer me this question please! If you can bring up a connotation between Albanain names and the communist regime (knowing how hated communism is today by the whole world), what kind of conclusion are you leaving to the readers?
If you feel the urge to say somethign bad about your neighbors, fine, but you know that this is only one part of the story. You don't need reference to notice that the majority of Albanians today give their children Illyrian names, and they just CAN't be all communists, can they? Now, that's another part of the story you did not mention. However, if you need reference, here's one H. Hasani, Emra Shqiptar, or simply get the Albanian, Kosovar, Macedonian or Monenegrin telephone directory and see it for yourself.
You may also write just Ardian on google and among first things that comes out is the name of Ardian Gjokaj, a Chatholic Albanian from Montenegro, and for your information, the Catholic Albanian of north Albania were persecuted by communists! Furthermore, there's Ardian Kozniku, soccer playe from Croatia...etc. etc. Once again, I am kindly asking you te reconsider what i am say. You have no right to put a blasphemy on such a widespread name. It is imposible that there is only negative connotation attached to my father's name. Tha's not objective!!!
OK, but mentioning "communist regime" isn't needed either. I am sorry , but you selectively choose some references to put negative connotation on my father's first name? (Ardian, who by the way was born in 1944). Leave the "communist imposed" part in, no problem, but leave my explanation that Illyrian aspiration don't mean the communist aspiration, which is what your sentence might "impose".Modern Albanians continue to give their childern Illyrian names. That's more objective. And I mentioned the references.It is not fair nor objective presentation of somebody's culture. There's nothing more filthy and unethical than portraying a negative side of someone elses culture. That's so misserably and low. That's not a fair-play. It's very unethical and unprofessional. I have references too, of course (Albanian telephone directory, H. Hasani's book, etc. and I'll get soem more for sure).
My "dear friend" , First of all , I kindly ask you highness not to tell me to STOP, for you're neither a policeman, or some authority, ok!!! Please make sure you get this right. Now, please ne sure that internet too is subject to international law(including the Defamation law). I know you find it difficult (actually impossible to discuss things in a civilised manner), but you have to face it, we're not all the same, and thank God we're not. I don't care what is noationalism and what isn't, but you are no authority to decide what name will be defamed and which will not. If you are a decent and civilised person, you wouldn't be hiding behind that mega.... name. that's is indeed cowardly. Are you enjoying being incapable of creating harmoniaous contact with people?
So , are we clear with this. PLEASE, do not issue orders to me, "sir", ok! You are no authority here or anywhere else!!!
"sir", I read therules, andunfortunately, I did not find any reference to content.
All I am trying to sayis frst of all this: 1. I am firstly sorry to have removed one of your sentencessome time ago, asI thought they were mine,
2.Secondly, You cant just blantly say modern Albanian names such as Ardian were imposed by communism, for my father is a living example tht's not the case (He was not born in Albania, never lived there and he's onlybeen there once. Yet ,he is an Albanian. What better reference you want than an Albanian telling you this!!!!
Yes, the communists of Albania might have imposed these names on some Albanians (thosewho ived in Albania), but what about as many Albanians who were born for generations outside of modern Albaia. Most ofthem still give their children Albanian and Illyrian names.
I am arguing that the communists only used what was already there-the readines of Albanian people to embrace their nationalawakening,nationalism or romaticitm (whatever you want to call it).
As for etymology, my dictionary says that it is a sciece facused on reealing the origin of a word and its relation to other words, so what's a problem with my references there.
I am sorry to say tis, but I have a strange feeling thatI am dealing here with a person who is politically biased. I may be wrong, but that's what everyon that read this article of YOURS concluded here. I urge you to do something about it for I believe you rare capeble of understanding what I am standing for in here.
OK, I did put some reference. What is wrong with my reference?
Technically, you (or whichever person wrote the communist part) satisfid the technical criteria, but not the ethical one, is is the key distinction between the primates and Humans, right. If you really wanted an objective opinion, you wouldhave helped me out technically. Instead, you used the name page to put fižorth your anti-communist, anti-Albanian r whatever personal issue u have. I think theonly person that will remove it is either you, or "people" like you.
However, I'll do my best to find out whatis technically wrong with my reference. In the meantime, you COULD help me if you really wanted to (and please stop giving me psychological advise and profiling on what is appologetic. That stinks sir. You are not psychologist, so I'd be gratefule if you would spare me of your "good intentions". I even doubt that you have a university degree)
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- Your mismatch additions and weird etymologies have made the article even worse.Fist improve your english then talk to me about "university degree" since i have more then one.Thats not how etymologies are made and nor is anything else.Megistias (talk) 09:49, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
- For example one of your additions is the email of some kid to behind the name.That is not a source its worthless pov pushing and an unreliable source.Megistias (talk) 10:01, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
OK, that might me an unreliable source, but what's wrong with other sources and what is wrong with my English? Everything I said was referenced. Would you at least tell me about the discrepancies, for I really see no point in making war with anyone here or anywhere else.I must admit I am surprised by the amount of negative energy and arrogance you have. I am sure you are capable of condenscending and at least explain to me what was it that I did wrong in writing my article?
[edit] Block notice
A link to the legal threat is here.
Stifle 11:35, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Dear Mr. Stifle,
I have noticed i have been blocked and I read the legal threat article accordingly. However, I must adit i though that it was Mr. megasitas that will be sanctioned , not me, for if you carefuly read our conversation, he kept being very bold in his reply to me (to the point of utter arrogance) which brought me to the point of deciding to discuss the matters legally with him, for an arrogance certainly does disturb people and puts them unders stress.
The whole point is that this person nevere ever replied directly and without arrogance to my enquiries, and he kept removing my posts. He didn't even wait until I came back to the computer to remove what he didn't agree with.. Most importantly, his selective referencing in Article entitle Ardian does have negative political connotations, precisely because only selective reference was made there, while my refrernces were disallowd.. Further more, he made a politically bialsed comment about this article when he said "they were both nationalisms" refering to the Albanian preference to Ilylrian and Albanian national names.
Dear Mr. Stifle, I find it utterly unethical that someone has a monopoly of the presentation of a culture he/she does not have any positive oppinion about.
I kindly invite your civility and understanding to help me resolve this issue to our mutual interest and benefit.
Kind regards Clament
- Hello. I've look a bit into this incident. First off, if you apologise and retract that rather ill-advised (und of course unrealistic) threat, we can certainly look at the situation under a fresh perspective. I know User:Megistias can be rather difficult to deal with; in fact, he shouldn't have been reverting you so quickly and I have blocked him for a short while too. However, I must also note that Megistias had a point, in that some of your edits were indeed not of the quality we need here – tendentious, unencyclopedic, argumentative, POV-pushing. If you want to return to editing, I'd strongly urge you to be a good lot more careful with what you write, and more willing to listen to other editors' criticism. Also, I'd be inclined to place you under a similar restriction as Megistias is already under, limiting the number of reverts you are allowed to make. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:57, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Dear Mr. Stiffle,
First of all let me thank you for taking this matter with seriousness and credibility that Wikipedia deservs, and the one that I though it doesn't really have any longer , after a bitter dissappointment resulting from this issue.
I certainly do appologize for any innconvenience that my revolt (the legal threat) might have caused to you or any civility-oriented person here. However, I still adhere to my position that megistias was indeed arrogant and politically biased, which is clearly demonstrated in some of his comments above and the selective referencing he used in that article.I am not the only person to see this.
The idea of a politicaly biased person having the monopoly over the presentation of a whole culture, and his arrogant approach to my initial attemtps to find an objective and mutually inclusive solution is unethical and unfair and truly insulting.
He kept cleaning some my paragraphs which WERE referenced. I spent a whole day trying to find the most relevant ones. I really think it's not fair.
I did appologize to him for removing a part of his sentence, but that was indeed a mistake, which is why I told him I'm ok with him keeping that "communist part", but he should also let me write down the whole story.
Last but not least, there is still one of my sentence there to which he added " as imposed by the communist regime" which is both historically incomplete and unethical.
Looking forward to resolving this issue and going back to normal life again
Once again I sincerely thank you for your willingness to help in this matter
Clement
This guy Megistias is showing very racist views without any proofs against Albanians. That article has not one bit of trooth to it. The communist regime in Albania did not have any such policies, and before his claiming that he should show the verifiable documents as proof before racially insulting a whole nationality. Suggest that the whole article be removed and Megistias be banned —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.205.125.98 (talk) 21:54, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
I would also kindly ask that I be shown those parts of megistias' replies that violated the rules and made you sanction him too. I hope you wouldn't mind me pointing once again to those replies I found uncivil,inpolite,arrogant and provokative:
"So you have not references!!.Thats not how you give etymologies! Remove them please.And wiki is not a democracy" (Well, with all that arrogance, patronizing, order-issuing, disrespect and monopoly over articles, it certainly isn't Democracy, but thank God, this isn't the whole of Wikipedia, just a part of it...a very sad part of it).
"We have a communication problem (yes we do, but we can't solve it with all that arrogance, bluntness and disrespect, but through communication)...
"The name among illyrians was not Bardhyllis but Bardyllis and toned completely differently then the albanians do.The "h" is also an albanian communism-nationalism addition.The names were Made up this is an encyclopedia and the ref exists.So it will be in.Most names did not exist nothing has been verified as of yet that an Illyrian personal name -not an inherited toponym- was used.Indoeuropean similarities is one thing and actual names are another.There is no Illyrian culture to be cultivated.No such thing" ( Well,suddenly he engages in political discussion. If this is not political biasness, than I don't know what is! And a person with this kind of oppinion is controlling who writes what about Albanian names and culture? Congratulations!)
"That is irrelevant.The article is on the names" (Well, if that's the case, then why was his very first sentence a politically biased one, based on a carefully selected reference? And what about the political opinion above?)
"What you wrote is an apologetic to "excuse" the referenced fact in the article.This is not how wiki works.Your personal opinion is irrelevant.It will be removed by the first person who reads it" (No, it will be removed by somebody incapable of communicating properly with "editors non-grata" and incapable of helping them out).
"Your father is irrelevant and the rest as well. (I am sorry,but my father IS relevant, for his name IS Ardian, and no communist gave it to him, for my grandfather wasn't even born in Albania,neither was my fahter. So, what kind of spiritual pain is he creating with the only article on this name on Wikipedia being so biased and with negative connotations. This is why i recalled the ECHR,and I believe everybody whose father's name is Ardian would have felt the same. Is it really so hard to understand and appreciate genuine human feelings?)
Stop monologuing ("Yes, Sir, Ay ay Sir!) and pay attention to what i am saying"("Yes, Sir, Ay ay Sir!). What do you say about this Mr. Stiffle?
"Wikipedia is not a democracy (second time) Also your latest additions are even more weird.You cant justify such things." In other words, the Illyrian cultural heritage is now a part of Albanian cultural identity, whether"??? There is no such thing.The article is not a place to justify such rhetorics.And there is not actual established link of albanians to illyrians just see..." (OK, if this is all about names, than how come he is so frustrated here about a well known Balkan political and cultural confrontation?)
"See the article talk page and i suggest you remove all your additions.If you do not i will report for all the discrepancies you have committed in the article" (Well, this is a threat too, as far as a common sense is concerned, and I appreciate you sanctioned him the same way you sanctioned me)
Respectfully Clement
- Okay, calm down please. I'll unblock you now, given that the legal threats are off the table. As I said, I ask you to stick to a "revert parole": don't make more than max. 1 revert on any one article within any one 48-hour period, for the next month to come. As for your conflict over that "Ardian" article, my personal suggestion is: cut it back. There's very little sourced material on that name either way. No disrespect to you or your father or whoever else uses that name, but without reliable sourcing we really can't say much about it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:35, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Thank you
Clement
Just one more thing:
Am I allowed to change back to the original verision one of my sentences in the article that was altered by megistias ("Ardian is one of many modern Albanian names using elements from supposed ancient Illyrian languages (personal names, nameplaces, deities etc.) imposed by the communist regime")? He added those words in bold.
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- They are not in bold in the article. No altering referenced material please.Megistias (talk) 11:07, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
- References cant be altered.Megistias (talk) 11:09, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
- Don't be silly Megistias. Ever seen "(emphasis mine)" used in an academic publication? We do this kind of highlighting all the time here on WP. - About the issue: I don't see any problem with removing the unsourced "imposed by the communist regime". It may be true that the communist regime generally favoured such names, but that's hardly relevant for the explanation of the name as such. And it's unsourced, as I said. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:22, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
- What are you referring to? ^ ISBN 960-210-279-9 Miranda Vickers, The Albanians Chapter 9. "Albania Isolates itself" page 196 ,"From time to time official lists were published with pagan, so-called Illyrian or freshly minted names considered appropriate for the new breed of revolutionary Albanians.(see also Also Logoreci "the Albanians" page 157".
- The second mention in the article was not mine or it was there from a previous version.My edit was the sourced one with the brief mention.Megistias (talk) 11:26, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Fut.Perf.
I didn't say that megistias wrote those words in bold in the article. I referred to the bold in the comment I wrote to the admin.moderator, so those words could be identified, that's all.
I've seen the article just now and I must admit that it looks much better than any previous version(including mine). It looks far less leading and less biased in political sense too. Now I no longer feel the urge to add anything, except perhaps for just one referenced sentence (with your permission of course), smth. like this: "Both Illyrian and Albanian national names (the latter being popular even before communism [1])are still most popular names among Albanians today."
As for the second part of the sentence, right now I don't have a reference that explicitaly says this, but I know this can be proved in many ways, like if you just go to any Albanian forum, discussion lists, Telephone directory in Albania, Kosovo, Montenegro and Macedonia (places where Albanians live), school register and the like, it is sufficient to see personal names there and just compare them with some list of Illyrian names (e.g. John Wilkes' book 'Illyrians', where he gives a list of Illyrian names). There are other ways too. Would this be acceptable?
