Talk:Cleveland, Ohio/Archive 1

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Clevelanders! Please contribute to the rapid transit page

I've added a Cleveland Rapid Transit page, but everything I know about the system comes from the Web and various railfan sources. It would be great if a local could look this over and fix any mistakes.

--Jfruh 23:39, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Natives?

I was looking at the list of Cleveland natives and I'm not sure that this list takes the right approach. It includes LeBron James, who is from Akron, which is really too far away geographically and historically to count as Cleveland. Lou Boudreau was born in Illinois and as far as I know wasn't a Clevelander until the Indians took him there. Jim Brown was from Georgia. I understand "native" to mean someone who was born in a city, or at least grew up there. I wouldn't complain about Bob Hope if he were on the list, because while he was born in England he grew up in Cleveland. Is there a standard approach to determining who is a native of a city? If sports stars for Cleveland teams count as natives then every movie actor should count as a native of Hollywood.


--Lemuel 14:50, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps we need to include a section on "local heroes" or "figures associated with Cleveland" to differentiate between those raised in Cleveland and those who are associated with it, etc. For example Rockefeller was eliminated today although (at least in the city) it is often said that "Rockefeller started his career selling apples on Public Square."

--T. R. Stratton 07:50, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't have a problem with "local heroes" or "figures associated with Cleveland". Another title might be "famous residents". I removed Rockefeller because he didn't move to the Cleveland area until he was 15 or 16, and then it was Strongsville. He didn't live in Cleveland until later. To stir things up more, Paul Newman should probably be removed from the list since he is actually from Shaker Heights, a city with its own Wikipedia article. --Beirne 12:28, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)

I'm sure this has been discussed in some wikipedia board somewhere (I don't really have time to search for it), but it seems to me that people who came from traditional suburbs should be including on the main city's list. For example, I was born in Parma, Ohio, but never lived there. I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio, and Brooklyn, Ohio, but if there was to be a wiki article about me I would want to be listed as a Cleveland native. Of course we can't ask people where they want to be listed, but if we go only on birthplace, there will be some strange singularities. Also, in some parts of the world the suburbs are always annexed by the city and in some places they aren't, so, for example, native lists in the united states are going to be rather odd if they cut all the people who grew up in the suburbs. I agree that Rockefeller probably shouldn't be listed as a native, unless there are some caveats, etc., perhaps he should just have the listing in the earlier section only. --T. R. Stratton 22:21, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)

People from suburbs should not be included in the list of Cleveland natives. If you read my earlier comment you will see that I wouldn't complain about Bob Hope, who was born in England but came to Cleveland as a child. I consider someone who grew up in a city to be a native. Where to draw the line is a bit hazy, but I'd say before 5 or 6 years of age. Regarding suburbs, point about suburbs being annexed doesn't fit. If someone was born in Ohio City, formerly a separate community, they should be listed as a Cleveland native. If they were born in a separate suburb, though, that is where they should show up. I understand that in casual conversation with people from elsewhere one tends to identify themselves with a major known city rather than an unknown one, but Wikipedia is about the facts, not convenience or civic pride. Listing suburban natives would be fine in an article on Northeast Ohio or Greater Cleveland, but the Cleveland article isn't about either of those things. It is about Cleveland.

--Beirne 00:16, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)

I pulled out LeBron James, Trent Reznor, and John D. Rockefeller again for the reasons I mentioned earlier. I thought the idea of listing "local heroes" or "famous residents" was a good one. It would be fine to make that kind of section and list them as well as others.

I just pulled a bunch more names out of the Cleveland Natives section. I hate to be a pain, but there were two reasons to pull out the names. One, they only lived in Cleveland as adults. The idea of being a native is that the location is where you were born or at least grew up. If someone wants to add a "Famous Clevelander" section it could contain Rockefeller, Bob Feller, and many others. The other reason was that many of the people listed weren't actually from the city of Cleveland, they were from other nearby communities. I understand that in casual conversation someone may be referred to as being from the nearest known city, but the Wikipedia needs to be precise. Paul Newman, for example, should be in the Shaker Heights article, not the Cleveland article. There is a Greater Cleveland article that would be appropriate for Cleveland-area natives if someone wants to add them there.--Beirne 14:59, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)

I just took out Toni Morrison, who is from Lorain, Ohio. No one from around here considers Lorain to even be a Cleveland suburb. Pmeisel 04:10, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The census disagrees with you. DirectorStratton 23:20, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

Auto industry

I'm not sure the auto industry paragraph is correct. There are a number of auto factories in Greater Cleveland but I don't think there are any Cleveland itself. The Ford plants are in Brookpark according to my Commercial Survey Company atlas. I'd like to drop the entire paragraph. --Beirne 05:18, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)

Well, I work at those plants. I pay Brookpark city taxes, but the mailing address is Cleveland 44142, and the signs say "Cleveland Engine Plant #1", "Cleveland Casting Plant", and "Cleveland Engine Plant #2". Cleveland Hopkins Airport next door is part of Cleveland though surrounded by Brookpark, and Brookpark and Cleveland just traded several acres of land to facitate airport development.
If you pay Brook Park city taxes then the plant is in Brook Park. The post office used in addresses often does not match the city. For example, people in Fairlawn have an Akron address even though their post office is in Fairlawn. The name on the plant is a convenience because no one outside of the area has heard of Brook Park. Since there is a Brook Park, Ohio article the plant should be listed as being there rather than Cleveland. --Beirne 13:34, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)
No one has ever heard of Walton Hills, Metuchen, Batavia -- and not many of Milan, Sharonville... to name some other Ford plants. But I can live with moving this material to Greater Cleveland. A lot of people actually do know where Brookpark is, it is considerably more notable as a community than either Walton Hills or Batavia.--Pmeisel 13:58, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
So -- I think the paragraph needs some work but the concept of automotive industry should stay. Note -- an earlier version of the article referred to Ford assembly plants, the nearest of which are in Avon Lake and Lorain. No one in those cities thinks of themselves as being in Cleveland.
Again, the census disagrees with you. DirectorStratton 23:18, July 25, 2005 (UTC)
The census does not say that Avon Lake and Lorain are part of the city of Cleveland. --Beirne 23:27, July 27, 2005 (UTC)
In this context I assume the author meant Greater Cleveland and not Cleveland. DirectorStratton 05:59, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

If someone wants to talk about the auto indusry in Cleveland, you can mention that the city and area was and still is a major auto parts supplier. One could also mention Peerless Automobile Company. DirectorStratton 07:43, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

The area doesn't count in this article but the article could certainly include information on the auto parts business that takes place in the city. It could also include the city's automotive manufacturing history, including companies like Peerless and Winton. --Beirne 12:20, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

Cleveland-only Cleveland page

I have made a number of changes to remove people and businesses from the Cleveland page where it said they were from Cleveland but weren't. Now my suggestion to deal with the rest of the non-Cleveland information is to move it out of the Cleveland article and put it in the Greater Cleveland article. We should then add a comment to the top of the Clevland page referring people who want information on the Greater Cleveland area to that page.

The areas that would be moved are the references to companies outside Cleveland such as Progressive and the sections on colleges and theaters that are outside of Cleveland. I'm not sure why a list of theater companies is in an encyclopedia at all, and at least two of those listed are in Summit County, but in any case only Cleveland things should be in the Cleveland article. The Cuyahoga County Airport is another candidate since it isn't in the city. Any thoughts before I make the changes? --Beirne 13:41, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)

I am ok as long as we move, not delete, all the content. --Pmeisel 16:38, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

OK, I went ahead and moved all of the suburban content to the Greater Cleveland article. The only content I deleted was a theater company or two that disbanded. --Beirne 13:10, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC)

Public schools?

Does having an enormous list of the Cleveland Public Schools' buildings serve any purpose? - EurekaLott 04:29, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't think so. It takes up a lot of space, making the article harder to navigate, and doesn't add any useful information. I vote to remove it. --Beirne 12:36, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

Public School Funding

Could someone provide a source that says that Cleveland city schools spend the most per pupil? Otherwise I will cut this line because I just don't believe it. DirectorStratton 23:23, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

I can look for one. My understanding was that it was not necessarily the top spender, but it spends far more per pupil than do many districts with better academic ratings. And the stats I saw were for the county, not the state, but I'll check on it and get back.

I found some state statistics, here: http://www.ode.state.oh.us/school_finance/simulation_fiscal_analysis/EFM_exp_per_pupil.asp

Cleveland city schools spent $11,121 per pupil, in 2004, when the statewide average per pupil was $8,755. There are, however, other school districts with higher per-pupil spending, even within Cuyahoga county, such as ClevelandHeights-University Heights, at $14,442 per pupil, and Beachwood, at $18,685 per pupil. Mamawrites 12:50, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

To me, it sounds that Cleveland spends around the state average when you consider that it is located in a large city and thus would have higher expenditures naturally. DirectorStratton 22:50, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Population

Why is the population for "Cleveland, Ohio" listed as over 2 million? I know it says that it's the population for the metro area, but if someone was skimming the article quickly this could be very misleading. This article is about the city of Cleveland, not the metro area, so it doesn't make much sense to me to even have the metro area population listed in the quick facts box (although it might make sense to mention that in the article somewhere). Any thoughts? --Mesulliv 03:10, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

As one who has made lots of changes to ensure that the article is only about the city of Cleveland I feel a bit funny defending something about the metro area, but I'll explain why it ended up there. The infobox for cities has a population note field that is generally used to show the metropolitan population (Template_talk:Infobox_City). I'll admit that the city's population should be more prominent, but that is how the infobox was designed. If it is considered a serious enough issue the item can be removed but not easily made less prominent. --Beirne 03:35, July 15, 2005 (UTC)
In that case, I'm alright with it, especially now that I see that other pages mention the metro area population in the same way. I'll mention something about it on the infobox page, in case somebody wants to tackle a fix for this, by adding an item to the info box specifically for metro population (rather than putting it in the "population_note" field). --Mesulliv 04:17, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

Wikimania 2006

Fellow Clevelanders, if you would be interested in helping to put together a bid to host Wikimania 2006 in our fair city, please come on over to m:Wikimania_2006/Cleveland. Mamawrites 18:13, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

The history of Cleveland

I've been researching the history of Cleveland lately and I was thinking, perhaps an article should be started about it. I think that if we started this page, then maybe we could shorten the history section on the main Cleveland article and cut down the size of the article in the process. What do you think? -- Clevelander 23:29, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Absolutely. I think it would be a fantastic addition, and it would absolutely cut down on the size of the main article. I'll be glad to help out any way I can...once I get some sleep after working on the featured article nomination! :) I'm sure you know about this, but just in case...the Encyclopedia of Cleveland History is indispensible in an article about the history of Cleveland. That should give you (at least!) a good head start. Good luck, and if I can help, please let me know! PacknCanes | say something! 04:25, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
I was actually using the book "The Encyclopedia of Cleveland History" by Van Tassel-Brabowski. I had no idea it was also available online! Thanks! -- Clevelander 20:10, 15 October 2005 (UTC)


Changing titles of sections

Please do not change the title of any section in the article, unless you are adding something substantial to that section. There's no need for a section called "Cleveland Culture" in an article about Cleveland; what other city's culture would we be describing? Pittsburgh? I can assure you that renaming "Culture of New York City" (and "History of New York" too, for that matter) would be at the top of the list should the New York City article ever come up for nomination as a featured article again. Thanks -- PacknCanes | say something! 21:00, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

I apologize for renaming the Culture and Sports sections. It will not happen again, I assure you. No hard feelings. -- Clevelander 22:55, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
No harm done. Thanks; I know you have good intentions. PacknCanes | say something! 23:19, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

The Cleveland History article is now online!

Check it out here! I encourage fellow Clevelanders and Cleveland experts alike to give this article a read over and correct any mistakes or add any missing facts. I will be adding more to it soon (information, photographs, a timeline, etc.) -- Clevelander 02:08, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

City Fact Box

Is there a reason the Cleveland fact box format is completely different from the fact boxes of Cincinnati, Columbus, Chicago, Atlanta, etc... The boxes of these cities look cleaner and easier to read. I see that our format is the same one used in Dallas and Houston. Why don't we have a picture of the city skyline on top of the fact box like the other cities do? What happened to the city flag? I like how the rest of the article flows, and to everyone who worked on it together Nice Job.