Talk:Cleromancy

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[edit] Introduction

The introduction was quite bizarre. Cleromancy is a form of divination using random selection. Drawing straws is not a form of divintaiton it is a form of selection that can, e.g. be used to make a fair choice without any divine intervention! I'm not at all sure "casting lots" as I originally checked should come here at all, but neither should it point to allotment for exactly the opposite reason that allotment is primarily not a form of divination. Life is too short to work out what should happen, so I've left a note with a link to allotment.

--Mike 11:16, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I've put a choice on "casting lots" and "sortilege", I'll put a note on allotment pointing to cleromancy. --Mike 11:32, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

"In this case, the casting of lots was implicitly looked down upon by the biblical authors." I think this is unsubstantiated speculation. I think it would be best if this sentence were removed. The "biblical authors" later used casting lots as a means of selecting a "replacement Apostle" after the suicide of Judas (Iscariot). (Acts 1:23-26) --Imhavoc 01:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the second point is correct about Saul being selected by lot. Check 1 Samuel 15:42 It descrbes a lot between Saul and his son Jonathan. Saul's kingship is declared by Samuel without lot mentioned

Essentially, in the Old Testament, the use of lots, aka cleromancy, was a means of inquiring of God, usually with "yes" or "no" answers, but always with a limited number of possible outcomes. Divination, which, strictly speaking, is seeking information considered secret, usually regarding the future, is only one use of cleromancy, and as such, the prohibition of divination in the Old Testament limits the use of cleromancy to certain types of inquiries, but does not forbid it completely. Regarding Saul's kingship, it was, in fact, confirmed by lot. Regarding the casting of lots upon Jesus' clothing, there is no reason to believe that it was frowned upon by the apostles since it was not divination, per se; rather, it was common sortilege. On just one further note, in the Jewish mentality, as well as the majority of Orthodox Christian mentality, God has absolute control over all occurences and events, even in the natural world; therefore, even simple sortilege (i.e. drawing straws) is considered by them to be a means of finding out God's will; in other words, simply drawing straws reveals God's choice, so to speak. Djspiegel3 18:01, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

There was a bit too much editorialising and speculation. I've trimmed this; hopefully the texts are clear enough by themselves. Pdch 16:59, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Western culture ?

For the time of the events cited from the Old Testament, they would have been more exactly yet retrospectively be regarded as Near Eastern culture. DFH 18:58, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Stub type.

you have labeled the stub as an occolt stub. this is not true. divinatiuon by no means is secretive or contains no hidden secrets. also why are you using the wicca/wiccan pentacross as the symbol for occult. wiccans are not occultist they are just as open about their religion as any christian, jew or muslim.

[edit] Bible stuff - FOUR cases? God's WISHES?

Quote from article (my bolding):

In the Old Testament, there are four cases where casting lots was invoked as a means of determining God's wishes:

Should we write "at least four cases" instead - I'm not aware of any sources outside Wikipedia listing the four cases we've found. As far as I recall, this part of the article began with a list of three cases that I'd collected over the years, without reading the Bible from beginning to end, and then someone added a fourth case. I'm not sure the list is complete now.

Also, in the four cases cited, it's not the really the whishes of this god that are revealed (except in the case about Saul); it's rather his knowledge. So could we write "God's mind" instead - or something?--Niels Ø (noe) (talk) 08:42, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

So now it's done. Someone got a better way of putting it than "God's mind"?--Niels Ø (noe) (talk) 12:32, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Random?

In the lead, user:Lambiam changed

Cleromancy is a form of divination using sortilege, casting lots or casting bones in which an outcome is determined by random means, such as the rolling of dice.

into

Cleromancy is a form of divination using sortition, casting of lots, or casting bones, in which an outcome is determined by means that normally would be considered random, such as the rolling of dice, but that are believed to reveal the will of God or other supernatural entities.

Of course, Lambiam's got a point. On the other hand, in some cases, the supernatural intervention in cleromancy may be thought to enter through the process of interpretation rather than trough the randomization. Could the text be tweaked either to mention this possibility, or (better, in the absense of source), not to rule it out?--Noe (talk) 18:23, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think the new text rules out the possibility of interpreters being needed for explaining the divine will, as revealed in the outcome of the process, to laypeople – just as in many scripture-based religions one has priests to explain the divine will as revealed in sacred scripture.  --Lambiam 22:01, 25 February 2008 (UTC)