Talk:Cleavage (breasts)

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 Cleavage (breasts) was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: August 8, 2006

Contents

[edit] Untitled discussion

Hi there, I made some formating changes, because there was very little under some of the headings, and replaced the original picture, licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.0, which, I think is freer than the coverpage. I left the SI picture in though, since I don't think there is a compelling reason not to include it, simply that the old one should not be replaced, since I think it is preferable. Hope that's ok, Trollderella 16:21, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

I canged the picture back. The one you changed it to is really not a good picture, though I would not be against changing the magazine cover for a better one if you find one. But the sharealike one is too close, and hardly indicitive of cleavage, as you can barely see any. AriGold 17:07, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Always use a more free alternative if one is available. Such images can often be used more readily outside the US. If you see a fair use image and know of an alternative more free equivalent, please replace it, so the Wikipedia can become as free as possible.

You also changed all of the formatting changes back, I'm not sure whether that is deliberate. Frankly, I preffer the original picture, but the point is that it is more free in terms of licensing. I did not remove the magazine cover, and would appreciate having both the pictures on the page. I gives downstream users an option in terms of a free image which they can use that the magazine cover does not. For that reason I think it should stay. Trollderella 17:29, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

I apologize, I was using two screens to compare and must've messed up. Agaian, sorry. I put both pics back up, resized them as they were bigger than the article itself and swapped the better pic for the one of the girl taking the picture of herself. AriGold 17:42, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

No problem - philosophically, even if the magazine covers are fair use, I feel we should not use them in preference to genuinely free pictures. Trollderella 17:46, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

I would agree if the "genuinely free pictures" were of decent quality and not like the one on this page. AriGold 17:47, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

The heart wants what it wants, I suppose. I really like the original, it is somewhat artistic, showing cleavage 'in the wild'! Trollderella 17:51, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Right, but it's not centered, and the informational point in question is barely there visually as there is nothing underneath it to frame the area we are trying to describe, she is wearing black with a black backgound and her breasts have little definition or contour as to show what we are trying to describe. I mean honestly, it looks like a butt-crack with a head above it. You may "like" the original, but we are trying to add some form of information here in the form of a visual aide, not pick the picture we simply "like" more. Anyway, I hope it looks ok now. AriGold 17:55, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, it seems clear to me, the image seems to draw attention to the feature in question, as opposed to the magazine cover, which draws attention to the face and is muddled. We're also trying to provide a free information resource, but yes, it looks ok now. Trollderella 18:07, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Using a copyrighted magazine cover to illustrate something for which there are free alternatives available -- and are quite easy to create -- is not fair use. Poking around for a minute on Commons, I found a far better picture than both of those with a free license. --Fastfission 16:14, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Types of cleavage

I am unable to find the terms used in this article to distinguish the various ways of exposing parts of the breasts ("cleavage décolleté," "cleavage centros," "cleavage côté," "cleavage underside," "cleavage cleavy") anywhere else on the Web except Wikipedia mirrors and Bikini Science. Are they truly "recognized in the fashion industry," or simply neoboobisms? I hope someone can cite authentic sources for these terms, or at least provide numerous photographs illustrating them from all angles. ➥the Epopt 21:29, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

It sounds to me like original research from "Bikini Science" and should probably be excised. --Cyde Weys 04:35, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Looks that way to me, too. Can't find these terms anywhere except for Bikini Science, mirrors of this article, and a couple of blogs discussing this article. I have removed them. Equalpants 03:47, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed merger

Oppose merger. --Arcadian 13:46, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Why? —Keenan Pepper 14:17, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
We don't have separate articles for, say, Axilla and Underarm. Why should this be an exception? —Keenan Pepper 20:56, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Oppose merger. The two terms are very different. Intermammary cleft, like inframammary cleft, is an anaatomical term used to describe the dimensions around the breasts. Cleavage is about the area of breast that shows outside the clothes. Cleavage can be reshaped by clothes, body position or gravity. Ghosts&empties 00:41, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

The current article gives the same definition for both, so they ought to be merged. Howdybob 20:12, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Ghosts&empties, please don't edit my comments. It's considered vandalism, and I take it seriously. —Keenan Pepper 01:07, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

To my mind intermammary sulcus is the purely scientific term and, although arguably synonymous with cleavage, I think cleavage is a more social / fashionable term as denoted by the history of it (as lightly touched upon in the article, but could be expanded). That said, the intermammary sulcus article is rather short and if there really is nothing in it to be expanded on then probs worth deleting. Mmm, where does this leave me? 'Weak don't merge' Iancaddy 17:50, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Why should it be deleted instead of merged? Think about it. Suppose someone hears the phrase intermammary sulcus and decides to look it up on Wikipedia. If it's deleted, they get a long list of vaguely related stuff from the search engine, and think "hmm, maybe Wikipedia isn't all it's cracked up to be". If it redirects to Cleavage (breasts), they immediately find out what it is. —Keenan Pepper 22:51, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Seriously, who wants a world without cleavage? Ergo, wikipedia should have cleavage too, and more of it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 198.85.228.129 (talk • contribs) .

It seems Ghosts&empties took it upon himself/herself to remove the merge templates without doing anything about it. It seems to me there are only two possibilities: Either they are the same thing, and should be merged, or they are different things, and someone should explain how they're different. Intermammary sulcus still says "commonly referred to as cleavage", and yet they are not merged. This is not a satisfactory situation. —Keenan Pepper 21:45, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Free images are prefered to copyvios

I rolled back the image change; we prefer to use free images over copyright violations. ➥the Epopt 16:57, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Plus Aria Giovanni looks better. —Keenan Pepper 17:00, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is this the same thing as intermammary sulcus or not?

This is getting ridiculous. If someone doesn't explain how these are different within a couple of days, I'm merging them. Wikipedia is not a dictionary and should not have multiple entries for synonyms. —Keenan Pepper 23:07, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

The current definition in the Cleavage article is as follows: "Cleavage is the partial exposure of a woman's breasts, and/or the cleft between them." In other words: "X = Y, and/or Z". The intermammary sulcus is Z. X != Z. However, perhaps the Cleavage article is incorrect, and if you can find a credible, external source that asserts that the terms are synonyms, I would have no objection to the merger. --Arcadian 01:04, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Look, it doesn't even matter if they're not exactly the same thing, nothing more, nothing less. From Wikipedia:Merging and moving pages under good reasons to merge a page:
  • There are two or more pages on related subjects that have a large overlap. Wikipedia is not a dictionary; there doesn't need to be a separate entry for every concept in the universe. For example, "Flammable" and "Non-flammable" can both be explained in an article on Flammability.
As for a "credible, external source", how about the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, which defines cleavage as "the hollow between a woman's breasts, esp. as exposed by a low-cut garment"? —Keenan Pepper 01:18, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Good enough for me -- I remove my objection to the merge, but I ask that when you merge, you remove the "and/or" portion of the definition of cleavage (since the OED supports the "Z" definition but not the "Y" definition). --Arcadian 01:31, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi Keenan - per your merger today from intermammary sulcus - I agree that the definition you've provided above is a synonym, so the merger would be appropriate. However, as I've mentioned above, the existing definition on the article page was not a synonym (because of the "and/or"). If you really want these pages merged, then we have to hold this page to the same rigor as we would other anatomical structures. Therefore, I have edited the page to align the definitions. --Arcadian 16:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Great. That's what I've always thought — it's not cleavage unless the breasts actually touch each other and form a visible line. —Keenan Pepper 00:52, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use is never, under any conditions, preferable to free

Let me attempt to clarify why I will continue to revert all attempts to add copyrighted images to this page: because they are copyrighted, and your fair use defense of your copyright violation is invalid unless you are discussing the image itself. For a magazine cover, you have to discuss that particular magazine's use of that particular image. You cannot use it to illustrate an article that has nothing to do with the image except that the woman in the image has an intermammary sulcus.

Yes, this means that the overwhelmingly vast majority of images that claim to be fair use are in fact indefensible copyright violations and should be summarily deleted. ➥the Epopt 16:00, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

As a solution to copyright issues, on May 31 I editted the article to include a link to Liv Lindeland. I agree that the free image (Aria Giovanni) is preferable to a copyrighted one and have left that image at the top of the article. However the image of Liv Lindeland is still necessary to illustrate the concept of Australian cleavage (a technical term of art). I believe there is clear legal precedent Kelly v. Arriba Soft Corporation and Perfect 10 v. Google, Inc. that linking to an image is fair use. The image in the article on Liv Lindeland is fair use because the article critiques the image itself (as well as others of her) in addition to the image being used to identify her. (This same image of Liv Lindeland with a completely blank background is available elsewhere on the web if this is preferable to linking to another WP article.) Is there any reason why linking to an image as descibed would be a copyright violation? Ghosts&empties 13:48, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Hearing no objection, I've reverted to the link from May 31.
  • One problem with the link to Liv Lindeland is that it assumes the article will remain the same (someone might replace or remove those images), and it's not entirely clear which picture is being referred to. (Well, until you look at each one for signs of cleavage, but I assume you see what I mean.) —tregoweth (talk) 15:32, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] alternate image suggestion

thumb

What do you folks think? The model is my wife, the picture is legal and public domain so no worries there. I took the picture for the downblouse article but they would look nice here too, and take care of any fair use worries. HighInBC 05:55, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I think Image:AriaGiovanni.jpg better illustrates the phenomenon, a narrow cleft formed where the breasts touch each other. In your picture there's a pretty wide area between the breasts. —Keenan Pepper 15:07, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
No ... I can't even think of a humorous caption for this.

Ok, it was made for the downblouse article so it is clearly not suited for this one. HighInBC 16:07, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Crude comment removed[1]. HighInBC 19:43, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Failed GA

Failed article, for the following reasons:

  1. Appears to have elements of original research
  2. Image is missing essential source information

-Isopropyl 15:29, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Post Flapper fashion

Cleavage as defined is a partial revealing of the breast. How is it that cleavage came back with sweaters? This should be clarified. --Lelek 06:30, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nix history

As noted in the comment above, the section on the history of cleavage is unclear and very vague. Cleavage was popular long before "the late fifteenth century". Doing a brief history of cleavage (even a recent history) would be roughly akin to a brief history of women's fashion. The history section appears to have been an attempt to make the article appear encyclopedic. However the number of articles linking here demonstrate its significance.

I also deleted the image "1200cc Breast Implants.jpg" as an illustration of Australian cleavage because it's a better image of scary/scarry implants. The link to the album cover is fair use of a copyright image and more illustrative. Ghosts&empties 23:59, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Splitting up merged articles again

Mark my words: neither this article nor Intermammary sulcus will ever become a featured article or even a good article without including information that belongs at the other. Go ahead, try to make Intermammary sulcus a featured article without talking about cleavage. Prove me wrong; I'd be delighted. —Keenan Pepper 20:32, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I nominated this article for "good article" status pretty much as a joke (although it's one of my personal favorites). Like good décolletage, the content is pretty skimpy (but enough to warrant an article). I agree that intermammary sulcus is just an sterile synonym that's already fully covered in the cleavage article. Ghosts&empties 13:22, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Australian cleavage?

As an Australian, I have never heard of the displaying of the underside of breasts being referred to as Australian cleavage. This term looks remarkably like an invention of a wikipedia author.

I have not tagged it {{fact}} yet but will do so unless someone can provide compelling evidence that the term exists outside a few wiki articles and copycat sites. If the term is unique to one country (eg the USA), it would be appropriate to say so in the article. --AliceJMarkham 04:27, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

It's not surprising that Australian Cleavage is an unknown term in Australia. It would be confusing (all cleavage in Australia is Australian) and the term "Down under", the basis for the joke is seldom used there. I know that Australian cleavage has been used in shock radio shows. H Bruthzoo 18:36, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

It violates WP:NEO. I removed it. CyberAnth 11:39, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Both terms are well established. While not the sort of neologism that William Safire covers, they are used by VH1 ([http://www.vh1.com/news/articles/1457258/08292002/aguilera_christina.jhtml here) and the aforementioned radio program, not to mention enumerable blogs and boards, which are a legitimate source of new language (but not in themselves a basis for WP articles). These terms are salient to the article to clarify that not all exposed breast is cleavage - the underside is Australian cleavage/neathage.H Bruthzoo 23:54, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] push up bras

what is the purpose of the removeable pads in push up bras? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.212.149.192 (talk) 07:41, 30 December 2006 (UTC).

I don't have a source for this, but they're probably so the bra can convert from pushing up the breasts and looking sexy to flattening them more and looking more professional. Philwelch 04:58, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
I would say it's the opposite. It takes up more space in the bra, thus pushing more breast up and out. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.12.142.179 (talk) 02:52, 17 March 2007 (UTC).
The pads push the breasts together and up, but not "out". They might look a bit more "out", but that's padding, not breast. Removing the pads makes the bra appropriate to wear to work, school, church, etc., and often makes the bra more comfortable. Having the chest squished around for long periods of time is not exactly relaxing. I dont think "personal experience" and "chatting with friends" are considered very good sources on my part, though. --64.180.207.196 (talk) 03:51, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cleavage in the past

During the 16th century some fashion had women's dresses with necklines that went down to the navel. Also in 18th century France cleavage was very popular, even as the expose the nipples. During the late Renaissance some dress even exposed the both breast of the women. All this applied to women of all classes. This page would look great with a historical section, and more images. --Margrave1206 21:58, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

This article had a "Cleavage through the ages" section, but it was woefully unsourced. If you have a good source or two, go for it. H Bruthzoo 23:03, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Breasts as false indicator of consequence-free sex

  • Science writer Burton MacKenzie speculates that mature female breasts were selected for because they were a false indicator of pregnancy and thus of "consequence free sex".[2]

I'm removing this for the moment, as it doesn't seem like an especially notable theory. It's just published on a blog, and it seems at odds with other attraction data pointing strongly to indicators of fertility and non-pregnancy, such as youthfulness and an hour glass figure.--Ty580 16:38, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Desmond Morris

Six of one, half a dozen of another. From wikipedia's page on Desmond Morris, Since their publication, some of Morris' theories explaining elements of human behaviour via a zoological lens, in particular via natural evolutionary mechanisms, have been attacked as incomplete, incorrect, or overly simplistic. Some explanations have also been criticised for being male-centred or supporting a sexist view of sexual behaviour. Some contend that his comments are often untestable, and as a result unscientific. 24.78.106.209 10:03, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
If the point of adding this is that criticisms of evolutionary psychology should be included, that is an appropriate point, but the criticisms in the above quote all need attributions.--Ty580 21:34, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Yet another image suggestion

I humbly suggest - it's an equally free image, and simply displays more cleavage than . --AnonEMouse (squeak) 14:38, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

How about this? Videmus Omnia Talk 16:07, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Hard to beat that, clearly the focus of the picture. We'll leave the other one for when the article has a decolletage section. :-). --AnonEMouse (squeak) 16:28, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
The best image will probably be one that portrays cleavage as it most frequently appears in society, so the unusually revealing clothing and unusually very large breasts seen in the Louise Glover and Gianna Michaels pics wouldn't be representative of the article topic. The Aria Giovanni pic portrays breasts that should be large enough for the topic.--Ty580 21:40, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Agree. -- Infrogmation 22:43, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I really disagree. Why "one that portrays cleavage as it most frequently appears in society"? For demonstrative purposes, Image:AN Gianna Michaels 1.jpg is clearly the better image. The subject of this articel is clearly and purposefully the focus of the picture. --Evb-wiki 02:01, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
More than 1 image in an article is allowed! I would second a normal sized breast in this article. But i fail to see reason for removal of pixel size saying that it is deprecated. Lara_bran 03:58, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Feel free to look through User:Videmus Omnia/Free Images. I seem to have accumulated a lot of cleavage pictures. Videmus Omnia Talk 04:00, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
How'bout a gallery of cleavages in the article? Lara_bran 04:04, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
A gallery currently with 137 images can already be seen in the Commons Category:Decolleté linked here. Any other free images of relevence not in that category yet can be added. -- Infrogmation 09:58, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I reverted the substitution of Image:Densie Milani in pink.jpg for the lead image. Certainly enormous breasts nearly falling out of a skimpy top are eye-catching, but I don't think that's a better illustration of the subject of the article. Other thoughts? -- Infrogmation 20:53, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

We clearly need multiple sections; for cleavage as commonly seen in society, and extreme cleavage... :-) ... --AnonEMouse (squeak) 02:20, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

In the best faith, I rather boldly changed the lead image to this:     for the following reasons: (a) It is a specific close-up, illustrative of the topic, (b) it portrays a "standard" display of cleavage (i.e. not involving unusually revealing clothing or abnormally large breasts; note the comment above by Ty580), and (c) it is in the public domain. I think the first two of the above criteria make it more suitable for an encyclopaedic entry, the third particularly suitable for Wikipedia. I think it is a vast improvement on the previous images suggested. If you do revert, I won't hold anything against you, provided that you have and appropriate reasons, and explain them clearly on this discussion page. --Dune911 (talk) 18:58, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I haven't reverted the image change, as I don't see a problem with the image per se. I have, however, formatted the image in accordance with The section of Wikipedia's manual of style relating to images by removing the fixed pixel size. --AliceJMarkham (talk) 22:56, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks... I wasn't sure abut the formatting issue, thanks for pointing it out, I now know for future edits. --Dune911 (talk) 12:15, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cleave

So the word cleave is one of those self-antonyms -- it can mean either "cling to" or "split from". And it seems that either of the two meanings could be relevant here. So which is it? Is it where the breasts cling together, or where they're split apart? --67.116.236.81 (talk) 09:43, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merger from Cleavage (buttocks), Toe cleavage and Whale tail

These terms are not notable on their own and should be merged with this article. This article should then be moved (or in this case, redirected) to Cleavage (anatomy) to better clarify the topic. I would appreciate input from other editors and if there's no opposition to the merger, it will be done in 48 hours. Otherwise, please leave your comments here. Thanks, Cumulus Clouds (talk) 20:56, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Strong Oppose Sources provided establish independent notability. Alansohn (talk) 21:58, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
  • See my comments on the other talk pages for my response. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 22:08, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose There are various different types of cleavage. Lumping them all into one article serves no purpose. I think WP:PAPER covers this. -- JediLofty User ¦ Talk 09:27, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment: For an article that has existed for almost 3 years, 48 hours is inappropriately short. One week should be the minimum. --Gronky (talk) 09:19, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Sorry, I meant that only if there was no opposition. I meant it only as a time frame for the move, not a deadline for discussion. I don't intend to move this page now unless consensus here establishes it, which it looks like this is going to fail. My apologies. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 03:19, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose. I believe that, while an article at Cleavage (anatomy) may well be justified, this article should remain separate, being referenced with a {{main}} link. --AliceJMarkham (talk) 02:22, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose A cleavage or Décolleté is primarily a subject that concerns the breast, the butt cleavage is a different concept altogether, while there are other (mostly fringe) concepts of the cleavage existing. Therefore, it is easy to assume that we can has three decent articles here - Cleavage (breasts), Cleavage (buttock) and Cleavage (anatomy). We may make ample use of the disambiguation page (Cleavage). That's one of the reasons the disambiguation pages exist (to serve as a navigation dashboard for multiple overlapping concepts). And finally, the central page - Cleavage (anatomy) - may well have a little on all types of cleavages (with "main" links to bigger articles, house the smaller articles like cleavage (toe) and give an overview of the anatomical cleavage (currently that part remain mighty poor). Aditya(talk • contribs) 02:38, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
  • I will withdraw this request and nominate Cleavage (anatomy) for speedy deletion. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 22:19, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Article quality

The only halfway sensible section of this article is the second paragraph and even that has a silly title. 78.86.18.55 (talk) 18:04, 19 February 2008 (UTC)