Talk:Claude Vorilhon

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.
Biography Portal
Good article GA This article has been rated as GA-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]
Good article Claude Vorilhon has been listed as one of the Philosophy and religion good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.

Contents

[edit] Claude Vorilhon

  • Article: fr:Claude Vorilhon
  • Corresponding English-language article: None yet, presumably Claude Vorilhon
  • Worth doing because: No corresponding English article
  • Originally Requested by: Jmabel 08:29, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  • Status: Completed by Bogdangiusca 12th February 2004.
  • Other notes: Founder of Raelism. I don't really care about this article, I'm just putting it here as an example request. Jmabel 08:29, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Nothing on cloning?--35.11.210.84 14:19, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

this article has some false informations..it need to be re-written i suggest that youg get the right informatino about rael and raelism from the offical website try www.rael.org

i suggest that you delete the external links.... becaus its attacking the movement....its ok to put the critics view but also you have to put answers from the movemnt it self to make this article just

love

[edit] Claude Vorilhon

Does this sentence mean anything? Someone needs to unscramble it, or delete it: "Although he had marriage problems with his first wife Marie-Paul Cristini, Marie-Paul has since fully recovered from what she believed to be sexually inappropriate behavior in the house they once lived in, resulting in divorce after 15 years of marriage." She needed to recover from something before divorcing? She divorced after the behavior, but later recovered from it and remarried? Re-joined the movement? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.216.99.100 (talk) 11:54, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nonsense

Wikipedia deals with neutral information. Technically, the Raelian "movement" falls under the definition of a cult, as well as a cult of personality, and therefore is the context in which the article must reflect, along with facts.

"In religion and sociology, a cult is a cohesive group of people (often a relatively small and new religious movement) devoted to beliefs or practices that the surrounding culture or society considers to be far outside the mainstream. Its marginal status may come about either due to its novel belief system or because of its idiosyncratic practices."

Although whether the Rael "movement" ever falls under the definition of a malignant cult, or simply remains a source of attention, adulation, affirmation and free income for the silly profi..er, prophet, remains to be seen. As to the external links, I've re-inserted the article by Sam Vaknin, an authority on the subject, as this is within the context of other external links and explores the psychology of cult leaders. If anyone disagrees with the external links, they must rebute the entire article dealing with the subject of cults, unlike last time. Also, if you notice any factual errors please cite sources.

-- Sir Louis

The true definition of a cult should be a group of people who believe in something different then most others hence in the minority. Because isn't that really what a cult is? Wouldn't that have made every religion on the planet a cult at some point in time? When Christianity was in its lnfancy wasn't it considered a cult? To me a cult is a slanderous word used by those who are afraid of other peoples ideas that don't fit into some definition of normalcy that usually a government or larger religious organizations impose on others. Research yourself the different historical examples of this. There are plenty. All of our greatest inventors, scientists, musicians, writers, philosophers were men who were marginal, considered not “normal” and who thought outside the box. Imagine a world where all these great men could not create with the freedom of expression and creativity. We would still think the world is flat, we would be listening exclusively to music 300 years old and would still be using the pony express. Actually many our early great men were condemned for the way they thought and many were killed for it. So I would like to suggest that unless a person or a group of people are harmful to humanity (obviously the harmfulness of Rael or another can be debated) that they should be left alone to create, practice whatever they want. By labelling a person or a group of people who do not harm anyone borders on racism. If you want to debate whether the Raelian Movement is good for humanity then go ahead. But to sling mud and call any group a “cult” at a group who simply thinks differently then you is simply barbaric.

-- Ramzez

Academic definitions of cult try to neutral, and are meant to be descriptive rather than pejorative. Please try to keep it WP:CIVIL. AndroidCat 03:51, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Largest UFO religion?

I hesitate to delete this without some sort of consensus, but isn't Scientology the world's largest UFO religion? Granted technically UFO stands for unidentified flying objects, but in common usage it come to be understood as alien spacecraft. The Xenu space planes in Scientology arn't exactly unidentified because adherents believe they are exact replicas of DC_8's with rocket engines, however I think to most people that would qualify as a UFO.

I went ahead and made the change

[edit] Cloning

There were reports on the movement wanting to use cloning techniques... surprising this information isn't found in the article. Sfacets 04:57, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


There was CLAIMS of sucessfull human cloning by Clone-aid. Rael now says, there is no affilatione with Clone-aid in Raelian Movement.

Martin Honore.

[edit] Wikipedia is not a coorporate tool

Please chease from deleting "unofficial" links.

Sincerely,

Martin Honore.

[edit] Book

On this page, the book shown is described as Raël's second book, but on the Raëlism page, it's described as his first. Any ideas on which is right? 70.224.36.53 02:43, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

The books are as follows:

Intelligent Design (2006)
The Message Given to me by Extraterrestrials (1986), The Message Given by Extraterrestrials (1998), The Final Message (1998), True Face of God (1998)
no. 1 The Book Which Tells the Truth (1974)
no. 2 Extraterrestrials Took Me to their Planet (1975)
no. 4 Let's Welcome the Extraterrestrials (1979), Let's Welcome our Fathers From Space (1986)
no. 3 Geniocracy (1978)
no. 5 Sensual Meditation (1980)
no. 6 Yes to Human Cloning (2001)
no. 7 Maitreya (2003)

This hierarchy shows which books contain other books, which ones have more than one name, and which ones are independent.Kmarinas86 15:04, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV section

As I read the section about Raël being a predicted prophet, it seemed to me as if the author was attempting to prove that this man was such. For instance, when discussing the idea that Raël is Maitreya, the author clearly states that a certain proof is "hard to find on the internet". Certainly, this inability to find the proof shows that it is not widely accepted fact. I briefly glanced at the website and it seems to have been written by a fairly small group with a love for clipart. Furthermore, this section refutes his own claim of an Islamic Messiah while he states that "According to Islam, however, there is no "Muntazar"." This refuting would be fine if it was proven that Rael claimed himself to be the Islamic Messiah, but it seems as though a person tried to link him to this figure through original "research". Also, many religious leaders ask people (and may I add even modern scientists) "to stop simply believing and start to understand." One quotation is no basis for a Messianic fulfillment. The linking of Raël to the Hopi Messiah is also very stretched as this man is to carry "the Swastika, the cross and the power symbol of the Sun." I look at the Raëlian symbol, and it no longer contains a Swastika or a cross, and the Magen David is not a sun symbol. I would request that the section be rewritten or deleted altogether. Further discussion is certainly welcome. Eduard Gherkin 19:35, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Surely, the reason why it is not a widely accepted fact is simply because it's not a calendar that is widely accepted. Rather, one simply need to find another source proving that this indeed a genuine calendar whose year 3000 corresponds to the year 1973 AD in the Christian Calendar. History will show that this is true. In the meantime, me or someone else has to find yet another source which says that this is so, and again, without being a Raelian source. The Muslim reference needs fixing, and yes the Star of David got confused with the symbol of the sun (King David is not a sun)...Kmarinas86 21:28, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Beddou = Fot . 1027 BC. See google search results for "Beddou OR fot" : http://www.google.com/search?q=beddou+OR+fot+born+1027&btnG=Search . If 1027 BC is the first year, then 1 BC is the 1027th year, and 1973 years later is 1973 AD. 1027+1973=3000. There you go.Kmarinas86 21:36, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. Eduard Gherkin 16:41, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Useless trivia section

Why is the coincidental trivia section mislabelled "Footnote" even here? Is there any connection with Raël other than the name? AndroidCat 03:45, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I find this section weird. I don't know why this information was added. I tried moving it to a trivia section then the footnote section, but it still seems out of place. I'll remove the parts that don't include the line about the hispanic surname.Kmarinas86 12:28, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Serious POV issues

This article has serious POV issues. Several claims contradict those made in the french wikipedia, and the article doesn't even mention the controversy surrounding his cult (classified as such by his. For now, I've tagged it as NPOV. Yandman 14:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

The fact that the French and English articles differ does not tell us that the English article is more POV than the French article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C3%ABl#Criticism - I put this section here, and apparently, no one has put anything there at this time. Its for criticism of Raël not of his movement. Criticism of his movement properly belongs in History of Raëlism. In fact, the first thing I will do after I finish this post is add a "main article" link on the Raël page to the History of Raëlism page.Kmarinas86 16:11, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons
"Any assertion in a biography of a living person that might be defamatory if untrue must be sourced. Without reliable third-party sources, a biography will violate No original research and Verifiability, and could lead to libel claims."
"Information available solely on partisan websites or in obscure newspapers should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all. Information found in self-published books, newspapers, or websites/blogs should never be used, unless written by the subject (see below)."
J. Wales - "I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons."
"Real people are involved, and they can be hurt by your words. We are not tabloid journalism, we are an encyclopedia."
"Editors should be on the lookout for the malicious creation or editing of biographies or biographical information. If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability."
"The views of critics should be represented if their views are relevant to the subject's notability and are based on reliable sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to side with the critics' material. Be careful not to give a disproportionate amount of space to critics in case you represent a minority view as if it were the majority one. If the criticism represents the views of a tiny minority, it has no place in the article.
"Criticism should be sourced to reliable sources and should be about the subject of the article specifically. Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association."Kmarinas86 17:52, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Vorilhon

http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Vorilhon

Here is the translation from French to English. I bolded and italicized the inaccuracies, unencyclopedic terms, and sentences which repeat themselves. I put a line through the off topic assertions which focus on the Raelian movement not on Rael. I also underlined that which is not in the english version of the article.Kmarinas86 15:37, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Claude Vorilhon , known as Raël (born it September 30, 1946 with Vichy in Allier, France -), is the founder and guru of movement raëlien. This movement is classified in France like sect by rapport of 1995. Claude Vorilhon was before journalist sport yew and singer. == artistic and sporting Carrière == It passed its childhood to Ambert, raised by his/her aunt and her grandmother. Its visit at a druid in 1953 impresses it much. It attends a catholic boarding school with Puy-in Velay where it obtains poor results (even if it reveals a certain potential in poetry and the drafting) and there causes a scandal while taking part in the communion without being baptized. His/her parents withdraw it then boarding school to put it at the school of Ambert. The results better, especially that it are not hardly made there very often the school buissonnière. Impassioned guitar, it goes to Paris in 1961 to make street singer. Under the pseudonym of Claude Celler , it left several songs inspired by its idol Jacques Brel in 1966, of which: Honey and cinnamon , Madam' Wee , Mister your wife misleads me , When one marries , and its cultissime Sacrée salts mouth ; in 1971: My love Patricia . It enters to Disc' AZ with Lucien Morris, where it makes six discs, of which Honey and Canelle. However, in September 1970, its producer commits suicide and the career of Claude Celler, “small Brel”, stops there. A little later, it created with Clermont-Ferrand a review of automobile sport ( Car-Pop ). Its review was quickly a failure, after the oil crisis and the prohibition of the automobile competitions. In 1974, it gave up its occupation of sports editor and was devoted to the movement which it had just created.== Révélation == Claude Vorilhon affirms to have lived two experiments of meeting with extra-terrestrial which are the bases of its ideology. According to its description, it December 13, 1973 at the evening, whereas it walks to puy of Lassolas (or with the puy of the cow, the versions differ according to the sources), it sees one flying saucer which is posed gently. An extraterrestrial being leaves there, which speaks French and being come says to him to meet it and give him a message that it will have the role of spreading through all the nations. Always according to him, it receives its name of prophet, Raël , which means the Messenger . The talks will last five days and will be its first book object the book which says the truth which affirms that all the forms of life on Earth were created by these extraterrestrial, them Elohim, thanks to a control of genetic engineering and a scientific advance of 25  000 years. All many prophet the S which this Ground knew would have been sent by Elohim but their messages misunderstood and deformed by the human ones would have been perverted. Claude Vorilhon affirms to have received the mission of informing the world on his origins and that to build one embassy (pretext to finance the sect monthly by puncturing its followers) for return of Elohim. The extraterrestrial ones give him explanations on certain mysteries (which it will report in its book) while being based on new readings of the crowned texts, such as Bible. It also explains why, it October 7, 1975, it returns again in contact with Elohim which takes it along on their planet where it finds it Buddha, Moïse, Jésus and Mahomet and receives many lesson which it will describe in its second book, the extraterrestrial ones took along me on their planet . It affirms y to have discovered marvellous, harmonious and peaceful beings which teach one to him philosophy founded on pleasure, it love, it knowledge and it conscience. Its political doctrines (“géniocratie”) are opposed to the democracy and the equality citizens. Only the people equipped with a high intelligence quotient could occupy of the leading functions. Claude Vorilhon attacks Roman catholic Church. He launched a campaign of apostasy (“debaptisation”) and “dechristianization of Africa” (campaign posting and distribution of layers “Africa, awakes! ”) and its militants launched a campaign against the priests paedophiles which was condemned like defamatory and racist by several courts. In November 2005, Claude Vorilhon received the visit of the writer Michel Houellebecq, who took as a starting point him for the character by guru of sound roman the Possibility of an island , like that of the humorist and political activist Dieudonné Me bala Me bala. However, neither one nor the other belong to sect of “Raëliens”. On March 4, 2006, Michel Onfray was seen allotting by Raël the honorary title of priest of the Raëlien Movement, which it refused. Onfray answered on March 16 by an article: Raël, sidereal cretin, or bad smell of the journalists. [1] == Contradictions == “science must be your religion” it is written in a book of Raël. The raelism is not “not a belief but a comprehension” according to an interviewed raëlienne with ONPP (France October 3, 2004). To judge some by its literature, Raël does not have anything a well of learning. “Comprehension” raëlienne consists in distorting scientific facts in order to adjust them with its dogma creationnist and extraterrestrial. Its writings are truffés inconsistencies and boobs pseudo-scientists which it sometimes describes as “apparent contradictions”, in order to clear them with an additional layer of wild imaginings… As for the raëliens, they are évertuent to make fall down their guru on his feet at the price of often burlesques intellectual distorsions. They perceive the “message” only through the filters posed in front of their eyes by the guru. They take care well not to call it into question in order not to give up a feeling élitiste and comforting, learnedly maintained within the movement. But when they are with court of arguments, they answer you that Elohim can do everything with their science in twenty-five thousand years advance on ours, but which we are still “too primitive” to be able to explain and include/understand… Finally, the raëliens make confidence and believe in alleged “the message” transmitted by Raël, since it is included in supposed the “plane one of Elohim”… ==Sur the plate of Everyone speaks about it, in Canada == At the time of the first of the Québécois version of Everyone about it speaks about it (animated by Guy A. Lepage), the passage of Raël and its remarks on the democracy and the cloning caused Malayan and aggressiveness around the table. The top was reached when the caricaturist Serge Chapleau treated joke , ridiculed its costume and clutched to him the chignon, Raël leaving the plate followed by its faithful which were in the room. Also in this same emission the deputy was present péquiste Pauline Marois who treated Raël of insane to bind (“I did not think that it was as insane as that”). Thereafter, it movement raélien required of Pauline Marois of the excuses, which it refused to present, Claude Vorilhon complaining in addition to “to be attacked physically” by Chapleau. The interview is available into integral at these addresses left 1 left 2 left 3 (with Serge Chapleau) ==Avenir== Installed with Quebec since many years, the raéliens would think of settling elsewhere, according to recent interviews'. The sect at fort bad press in Canada, however recognized for its tolerance towards the worships which are practised there. In addition to the blows of publicity and the stories of cloning, Raéliens were passably shaken by a series of report of the journalist Brigitte McCann of Newspaper of Montreal. The young woman and an assistant infiltrated the sect lasting of the months, before giving a series of reports devastators, which were elaborate in a book, Journal of one infiltrated , published in 2004. The movements caused by the investigation were even worth with the two journalists to be interviewed on CNN. In the months which followed, of Raéliens tried to attack physically Brigitte McCann at the time of a living room of the book, an incident highly décrié by his/her colleagues journalists. Claude Vorilhon stated to have settled in Quebec for the climate of tolerance and respect that it found there at the time, but that the things had changed. According to him, it Japan, it Italy or it Africa would be ready to accomodate it, him and its sect. == Bibliographie == * 1973: The Book which says the truth * 1975: The extraterrestrial ones took me along on their planet * 1978: The géniocratie * 1979: Accueillir extraterrestrial the * 1980: Sensual meditation * 2002: Oui with the human cloning * 2005: Maitraya ==Littérature secondaire== * 2004: Michel Salamolard and Pierre Rottet, the Reality of Raël , editions Pillet/La Freedom * 2004: Annie Cathelin, the movement raëlien and its prophet: Sociological approach complexes Charisma , Harmattan * 2004: Brigitte McCann, Raël: Newspaper of one infiltrated , Stanké * Maryse Peloquin, Rael: robber of heart or Biography of a liar . == Discographie == 1966: * In wine glass * Madam' Wee * Honey and Cinnamon * Mister your wife misleads me * When one marries * Sacrée salts mouth * the Eyes out of almond == Sources ==

  1. ^ Text of Onfray on Rael

2005- Fiers to be raëliens- “Answers to the incentive campaigns to hatred fomented by pseudo-journalists.” Collective ED NOVA 2005 ISBN 2-940252-21-1 ==Autres articles== * Sect * Conditioning * mental Handling * guru * Movement raëlien == external Liens == * Prévensectes * June 21, 2006 - Judgement given against Claude Vorilhon in a business of continuation in slandering. Interesting reading, loquacious judge * musical Career of Claude Vorilhon * Claude Vorilhon and Dieudonné Me bala Me bala * Raël: Messiah or Liar?

It appears the french version of the article is very POV. It is obviously selective as to what appears in the article and what does not. As we know, the majority do not live in France or Canada. What is notable in France and Canada is not necessarily notable elsewhere. It also violates the biography tag someone added. It's not written in an encyclodedic and understated tone, which the biography policy of Wikipedia asks for. Additionally the french article strays from being a biography and inserts repetitive information about the Raelian Movement, though probably true, it only shows the Raelian Movement through "a hole in a door." In any case I think it will be fair to take the acceptable parts and put them into the Rael article.Kmarinas86 15:37, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ulcer?

How does one "almost" get an ulcer? That's sort of a bizarre claim. Deleuze 18:22, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Grabbed him by the what?

Chignon doesn't translate too well. Ponytail, queue, hair-braid, ...? AndroidCat 03:29, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Rat tail? Sfacets 04:01, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Slice and dice of quotation

The quotation from The Rael Deal has been badly broken up with the front section (which says who Dechevanne is) missing, and the In Court break slapped in the middle of the remainder. The Threats from critics section title also seems a bit POV—if nothing else, there is only one person named there. AndroidCat 01:09, 8 October 2006 (UTC)


[edit] The Maitreya section

I'm afraid nearly all of that is complete nonsense from a Buddhist point of view. There seems to be an immense amount of gibberish out there, most of it of a millenarian mindset, that has adopted him as a figure of either a saviour or some kind of antichrist. This selection should really carry a disclaimer that it deviates from the view Buddhists actually hold. 81.109.148.20 21:28, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Results of automated peer review

[edit] (cur) (last) 16:13, 16 November 2006 74.98.243.249 (Talk)

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Kmarinas86 21:59, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] (cur) (last) 16:58, 22 November 2006 Kmarinas86 (Talk | contribs)

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Kmarinas86 21:59, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] (cur) (last) 15:21, 8 March 2007 Kmarinas86 (Talk | contribs)

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Kmarinas86 16:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wow

This guys a nutjob. And he has a funny hair testicle thing.

[edit] GA Quick-fail

I've quick-failed this article's GA nomination since image:Rael_book.jpg doesn't have source information or a fair-use rationale. Feel free to renominate once that is taken care of. Drewcifer3000 05:21, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Failed again

This article has some pretty obvious holes and some POV problems. I am writing up at the moment. `Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:38, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

  • The early life is only sourced to this person's book. Given his propensity for self-promotion and self-deification, he cannot be taken to be a credible source about his life at all. As such, these things can only be taken as claims. Where is the verification that these songs were actuall published and registered somewhere. How many did he sell?
  • Car career - This is in the lead but is not explained at all. What did he write about? what cars did he test? This needs to be explained in the main body of the article
    • Car career section added.
  • hyperbole "in 1974, following his supposed UFO encounter, Raël almost developed a stomach ulcer before finally deciding to give up his much loved career as a sports-car journalist and devote himself fully to the task assigned to him by Yahweh"
    • Trimmed
  • weasel "Shortly after a surprisingly successful first public conference"
    • Deleted
  • Fair use picture - fails FUC 8. What is it there for? His book isn't discussed in depth and it is just used as a portrati holder.
    • Removed
  • Need more on advocacy
    • Done
    • Written in POV manner with words like "We" and "Claude" sounding like a Raelian pamphlet
      • Fixed
  • SHould not say "a very ancient text said to be written by Buddha himself" when this seems to be a text which is recognised only by a new Buddhist group which is not well established. This group cannot be taken to be representative of Buddhism
    • See below the next one
  • More instances of "Claude"
    • Fixed
  • PLease use the formal Mahayana and Theravada - not N and S Buddhism
    • See below the next one
  • No serious Buddhists or hisotrians think that the Buddha was born in 1027 BC. This seirously undermines the discussion about the discussion of Maitreya, as it presents the birth of the Buddha in 1027 BC as a historical consensus apparently
    • See below
  • Source 11 a geocities website is not acceptable
    • The entire section has been removed. Undue weight.
  • The Ornay thing. You need to show explicit criticism, not just that it was turned down
    • Criticism section needs to be in prose, not just a collection of court cases. They also need to say how people have disagreed with his teaching,s rahter than simply to say that there was a court case and there were allegations of impropriety. FIREPHIM is a quote box without context, The first quote does not seem related to its section. IT should discuss more the crticism of Rael by cult experts, rather than simply journalists.
      • I remove the section simply because all of them reflect "allegations of impropriety". I replaced it with a controversy section that contains the section about "Rael and his wife denied entry into Korea".
      • I will resubmit again.◙◙◙ I M Kmarinas86 U O 2¢ ◙◙◙ 09:16, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:10, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dubious source

Unfortunately, gov-certificates.co.uk is a private commercial site, in spite of the "gov-" in its name. From comments here it reminds me of companies that will sell people fanciful made-up "family trees". I'm not saying that their information is wrong in this case, just not reliable. AndroidCat 06:02, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

It turns out, ironically, that it came from Wikipedia. I guess the original source was more reliable. I am not going to pay $35 dollars for a birth certificate so that I can post it on the internet for verification. If that's what it takes, then screw it, I will remove his birthdate =P.◙◙◙ I M Kmarinas86 U O 2¢ ◙◙◙ 07:49, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Failed GA again

I think that the authors of this article need to step back for a while and come at it with fresh eyes - there are major issues, some raised by the last GA commentary that are not fixed yet. There are major issues that clearly cannot be fixed in a short time

  • Broadness (criteria 3) - Nothing of significance is said about his first 30 years and little is said that he has not published himself.
  • Most of the article (child, singer, Raelism etc..) often says "Claude says x about himself"referenced to a book by Claude. This needs to be re referenced and written from an external viewpoint. If Claude's words are removed from Claude's article then there is only a minor amount of non-motoring/controversy information left
  • Factually accurate and verifiable (criteria 2) - Far too much use of self-published sources (see Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published_sources_.28online_and_paper.29) which cannot be regarded as reliable
  • Neutral (criteria 4) - Simply cannot be while it is written from the subject's point of view. Much of the article reads as though written by an apologist putting his point of view across

- Peripitus (Talk) 07:40, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Latest GAN

  • There may be an applicable infobox, Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Infoboxes for this article. For example, see Template:Infobox Person, Template:Infobox School, or Template:Infobox City. Could seek out an infobox used for sports car drivers AND/OR for religious leaders[?] (Note that there might not be an applicable infobox; remember that these suggestions are not generated manually)
  • If this article is about a person, please add {{persondata|PLEASE SEE [[WP:PDATA]]!}} along with the required parameters to the article - see Wikipedia:Persondata for more information.[?]
  • The lead of this article should be developed. If the article is listed on a portal, then only the lead is used, does it adequately summarize the entire article, as well as entice the reader to seek further information in the related sections? Please follow guidelines at WP:LEAD; be aware that the lead should adequately summarize the article. Modified from...[?]
    • 1. Context - see Template:Biography
    • 2. Characterization - appearance, age, gender, educational level, vocation or occupation, financial status, marital status, social status, cultural background, hobbies, sexual orientation, religious beliefs, ambitions, motivations, personality, what the term refers to as used in the given context.
    • 3. Explanation - deeper meaning and background.
    • 4. Compare (similarities to other leaders) and contrast (differences between Vorilhon and other leaders) - how it relates to other topics, if appropriate.
    • 5. Criticism - include criticism if there has been significant, notable criticism. need to compare to other racecar drivers, religious leaders, if appropriate.

SriMesh | talk 03:32, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Failed "good article" nomination

This article failed good article nomination. This is how the article, as of October 25, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: I must cite back to the last failed GAN, by reviewer Peripitus (talk · contribs), who said: "Most of the article (child, singer, Raelism etc..) often says "Claude says x about himself"referenced to a book by Claude. This needs to be re referenced and written from an external viewpoint."
2. Factually accurate?: Looking through the references section, most of the references are either to sources from Rael himself, or to "motorsport." This is silly. There simply must be an extensive amount of references on this individual in secondary, academic sources, and scholarly analysis, that can be added to the article.
3. Broad in coverage?: Compared to the extensiveness of other sections of the article, the section: "Controversies surrounding denial of entry or residence" seems like it could be expanded upon. Also, have not secondary scholarly academic sources criticized his views on cloning? This could be its own subsection as well.
4. Neutral point of view?: Article is not written in an NPOV manner, due to questions about use of citations from only one or two main sources, as per above and questions from prior GA reviewers.
5. Article stability? Questions on the talk page have been raised about links being removed that do not link to official Rael Web sites. This is a major concern as well.
6. Images?: Images all seem to be from Wikimedia Commons.


When these issues are addressed, the article can be renominated. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a Good article reassessment. Thank you for your work so far. — Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 17:30, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

  • I also went ahead and fixed the {{ArticleHistory}} template, which previously did not show the OLDID's. Go and take a look at some of the previously failed GAN versions of the article. They previously contained some interesting subsections (with good sources) that were removed from this current version. Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 18:03, 25 October 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Dubious

What is meant by "nanotechnology controls biology"? This sounds very suspicious – or at the least, creative miswording. – Scartol • Tok 13:48, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

  • I'll try "nanostructures" instead.Kmarinas86 (talk) 16:38, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, I suppose that's better, but I still don't know what that means. Why not stick to the hopes/goals of the individual, instead of (imo speculative) statements about what controls what? – Scartol • Tok 18:55, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Hopes and goals are good, but they do not entail beliefs (not even history), which may be used in a biography anyway.Kmarinas86 (talk) 19:31, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good article review

  • The invasions led their divorce after 15 years of marriage.

This sentence should be re-worded, and not really a good addition to a lead paragraph.

  • ex-husband of the French star Dalida:

Is this part of the sentence about Lucien Morisse, pertinent to Claude Vorilhon?

  • Who in the world is Claude Celler or small Brel? mentioned in the section Young adulthood - On reading the talk page it seems like it is the singing pseudonym taken by Claude Vorilhon but this is not mentioned in the actual article at all. If these are other names for Claude, they should be mentioned in the infobox also as well as the lead paragraph.
  • Claude Vorilhon and Marie-Paul Cristini (Christine Vorilhon), a nurse,[23] met each other and married in 1970 Paris, France.

Could be reworded as perhaps ....Claude Vorilhon met Marie-Paul Cristini a nurse,[23]. In 1970 they were betrothed in Paris, France with Marie-Paul assuming the new name Christine Vorilhon.

  • Vorilhon claimed he was given the demystifying mission of informing the world of humanity's origins through mission welcoming the return of the extraterrestrials by building a residential embassy in neutral territory

This sentence needs to be re-worded - too many uses of the word mission in one long sentence.

  • Vorilhon claims in the book that he discovered harmonious and peaceable beings who were free of money, sickness, and war.[35]

This is not a very encyclopedic sentence. Perhaps re-word to facts about the book... and not claims. In this book, Vorhilhon describes harmonious and peaceable beings who were free of money, sickness, and war.[35]

  • Unfortunately for Marie-Paule, this is not substantiated as to whether Marie-Paule was fortunate or unfortunate in this occurence - phrase should be removed.
  • On 2003, Marie-Paul thought that Vorilhon was not "mad" but "devious, crafty, manipulative and very, very clever". As of late, she had rebuilt her life after recovering from the circumstances surrounding Vorilhon, and she had not seen him since 1985, according to her testimony on the Daily Mail in 2003

So? This is about Claude Vorilhon not Marie Paule. It is nice she has moved on with her own life, but should it not be in an article about her?

  • However, sociologist Susan J. Palmer, said nurse Marie-Paul diagnosed Vorilhon as clinically depressed, after he appeared at her door step in 1987, being burned out from the tasks he carried out within the movement

Whose door step did he appear at her could mean Susan or Marie-Paul? Also is this diagnoses relevant to something about Claude Vorhilhon - a section or a stepping stone about something in his life?

In a television documentary, They're Coming! (1990) by Radio Canada, Vorilhon was seen with four racially diverse women,[39] while Lisa, in slow-motion, wore a pink tutu and held hands with him This is note worded well. The additional statement while Lisa, in slow-motion, wore a pink tutu and held hands with him does not join on well to the main sentence.

  • Around that time, Sophie, whose mother and aunt were both Raëlians, was soon convinced of the messages and had a Raëlian baptism at age fifteen.

Who was baptised at age 15, Sophie, her mother or her aunt. Re wording is needed.

  • When she turned sixteen years of age, with the permission of her mother, Sophie married Vorilhon at Montreal's city hall, for the convenience of avoiding legal issues while traveling internationally.

Re word - very long again.

  • During a December 2001 interview with sociologist Susan J. Palmer, Sophie remained in positive terms with Vorilhon even though they divorced in the year prior.[40] On August 6, 2003, the Cybercast News Service said Vorilhon moved back to Canada with his wife Sophie de Niverville after being escorted out of South Korea by government officials.[8]

Re word possibly... During a December 2001 interview with sociologist Susan J. Palmer, Sophie spoke postively regarding Vorilhon even though they divorced the previous year.[40]

  • On August 6, 2003, the Cybercast News Service said Vorilhon moved back to Canada with his wife Sophie de Niverville after being escorted out of South Korea by government officials.[8]

Does this statement contradict the above - or did Sophie and Claude divorce in 2000, and get together again in 2003?

    • No. If the statements are correct, then the latter is a possibility.Kmarinas86 (talk) 19:52, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
  • He believes decisions involving human genetic engineering would be done to avoid genetically inherited diseases as well as to put less of an economic burden on society, and that no distinctive emphasis needs to be allocated to a particular race or religion.

Re-word this long sentence, and it will make more sense. The word would probably should also becould

  • A former Raelian named Jean Parraga claimed that Rael was treating his wife and children like prisoners in an attempt to break up his family

Whose wife and children were prisoners. Rael's or Parraga's?

  • Jean Parraga was dressed in suit who expressed his concern as a father and heartbroken husband.

It is nice that Jean has a suit - but what has this to do with Claude? Also very poorly worded sentence.

  • However, Parraga also had a criminal as a drug dealer and car thief.

What is the name of the criminal that Parraga had?

    • Lol. "record" added after "criminal".Kmarinas86 (talk) 19:52, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Raël then agreed to ask his members to stop sending letters if the public apologized.

Perhaps this should also be re-worded... Is this what was meant? Raël then agreed to ask his members to stop sending letters if Dechevanne’s TV station apologized. or Raël then agreed to ask his members to stop sending letters if the authorities apologized.

    • I chose the latter.
  • The Onfray was disgusted with the idea of trying to justify himself when speaking of "the smallest acts of the mentally ill" and delirium and was disturbed that the media had paid any attention to them.

Needs to be re-worded.

    • That's kind of what I got from his view. I don't see anyway of making it sound clearer without lying about what was happening. Deleted.Kmarinas86 (talk) 19:52, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
      • The above sentence probably should not start with the word the in reference to a person. Onfray was Michael Onfray, so just state Onfray was disgusted with the idea of trying to justify himself when speaking of "the smallest acts of the mentally ill" and delirium and was disturbed that the media had paid any attention to them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SriMesh (talk • contribs) 21:54, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Raëlians of South Korea were instructed by Raël to protest near the center of the country of Ministry of Health and Welfare that ordered him to leave.[67][8]

Re-word where exactly should they protest? Is the country called the country of Ministry of Health and Welfare?

  • Did Claude clone a human being, for which he became a centre of media attention? (Reference 2)
  • Clonaid, a company founded by a religious group called Raelians, announced the birth of a second "cloned" baby, this time in Europe (Reference 4) Can the article mention more about Claude and cloning?
    • I think not. He made some ancillary comments about the cloning. But Boisselier was the real spoke person for the event. What he's really notable is how the public reacted to him as a result of the Boisselier's cloning claims.Kmarinas86 (talk) 19:52, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Reference 11 and 21 are gone.
    • 21 does not work, but 11 still does.Kmarinas86 (talk) 19:52, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
  • for broadness- a section on early life could mention that he was raised in Ambert by his aunt and grandmother - reference 12
    • I tried this before, but people argued that we needed outside sources for this, not just Rael..Kmarinas86 (talk) 19:52, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Reference 3 and 25 are the same.
  • the infobox introduces several sections which should also be in the article proper as prose or sections themselves.
    • The things in the infobox are actually small details about Claude Vorilhon. As far as how those details related to Claude Vorilhon, there is hardly any outside sources that elaborate this significantly enough to add an entire section. Much of that is already in articles about Raëlian beliefs and practices.Kmarinas86 (talk) 19:52, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
  • The lead should mention the technology section as it should introduce the reader to all sections of the article. The second paragraph of the lead regarding marriages places a lot of emphasis on his marriages, more than any of the other sections which only warrant a sentence each or no sentence (technology advocate). Is the marriage section that important compared to the others? If these ... exotheology, sensual meditation, geniocracy ... are Claude's notable ideas - why are they not in the article? Who are these guys ...Jacques Brel, Michel Houellebecq... plop them into the article please. Is the School/tradition really sensualism, or is it Raelism. And is Raelism really a synonym for sensualism, or is Raelism a composite of other things?
    • As I implied before, I did not use the infobox to point out the major aspects of the person. For example, you would not expect an entire section on his birthdate or his name. Nor would you expect to find enough substantiated information as to why he like likes autoracing, sexual intercourse, and singing. Let us not exgerrate the relationship between Jacques Brel and Rael. Being influenced do not necessarily rely upon a relationship that has any notability extensive enough for a section within the article. The reason for Michel Houellebecq being influenced by Rael is shown in The Possibility of an Island.19:52, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
  • It looks like there a number of external citations for his racing career, and his singing career, court cases ... which is awesome. His founding of the Raelism movement relies heavily on Rael documentation, can this be backed up by other sources as well, to give notability to Claude Vorhilhon as founder of Raelism?


GA review (see here for criteria)

This is a nice piece of work, but it still has some shortcomings with respect to the good article criteria.

  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS):
    May need to ask for copyedit assistance. Some of the English structure sounds like it is translation from French grammar.
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
    checked WWW references - some no longer exist coments above
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
    Looked up Claude Vorhilhon aka Claude Celler aka Raël, and made comments above about missing thoughts presented on other articles
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
    As mentioned above, the article tends to present some sway and not only the facts.
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:
    Good luck improving the article
  • I will place this article on hold, although there are a lot of items to address in a week. SriMesh | talk 04:03, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GAN

[edit] Successful good article nomination

I am glad to report that this article nomination for good article status has been promoted. This is how the article, as of December 26, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: Pass
2. Factually accurate?: Pass
3. Broad in coverage?: Pass
4. Neutral point of view?: Pass
5. Article stability? Pass
6. Images?: Pass

You have patiently addressed requests made upon you time and again, and this article has come a long way! If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to Good article reassessment. Thank you to all of the editors who worked hard to bring it to this status, and congratulations.— SriMesh | talk 22:19, 26 December 2007 (UTC)