Talk:Classification of the Japanese language

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[edit] Tamil Hypothesis

When this was on the Japanese language page, someone kept putting in something about how Japanese and Tamil have retroflex pronunciation for both /l/ and /r/. Leaving aside the fact that Japanese has only one liquid consonant, it is important to note that Japanese, unlike Tamil, has no retroflexes, which are a prominent characteristic of Indian languages in general. It is still important to note here that the phonetics of Japanese and Tamil differ greatly in this respect, so I have put that part back in. Godfrey Daniel 00:05, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and as for the scholarly support, "very little" isn't strong enough: of all the scholars I know who specialize in Japanese (and I know most of the non-Japanese ones and many of the Japanese researchers, too), NONE accept the Tamil hypothesis as even remotely plausible. Godfrey Daniel 00:10, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Whether or not what you've written is true, you need to provide sources to support it, which this article seems to lack. If you can find sources to support most of the things written in this article, then you should place it in a Sources section. This will be helpful in making this a more reliable article. Jagged 07:14, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps you would like to lead the way by supplying a source for your own claim that "there is no order of probability"? I can provide sources that contradict it: e.g. "the Japanese-Korean relationship [...] is considered by many to be the most plausible" (Masayoshi Shibatani, The Languages of Japan (Cambridge: 1990), p. 116), which may be considered to have particular force in the context of a broad overview aimed at non-specialists.
If you would like to see sources particularly criticising the Tamil theory, you have only to follow the link from Ōno's name; numerous criticisms are quoted and discussed towards the end of the linked article. — Haeleth Talk 15:53, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
What exactly is the point in me citing a source for a removed statement? I have not come across any list giving an "order of probability", so I see no reason to keep this statement. If you do have any sources to support it (such as the Masayoshi Shibatani source you mentioned), or for anything else written in this article, then by all means add them to a Sources/References/Bibliography section in the main article, and make whatever edits you like as long as it is consistent with those sources and references. Jagged 18:58, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." While you may not personally be familiar with the literature, I am. Furthermore, when I speak with the experts in the field (like the week-long session at ICHL XVI in Copenhagen in 2003, and the bimonthly meetings held over a year-long period at Nichibunken in 2000-2001), we come to a certain consensus. I can tell you that there is overall scepticism, but the order is as I originally presented it. If I can find the time, I might get around to putting in reference, but you're going to have to be patient. In the mean time, instead of deleting material, how about adding the "fact" tag? (Curly brackets x2 around the word "fact" is how you do it.)
Why, that's such a good idea I'll do it now! Godfrey Daniel 01:23, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Took out the "fact" tag, because I added the reference. I also expanded several sections. Godfrey Daniel 05:25, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for adding a reference and expanding some parts. I am quite content with the article as it currently stands. Jagged 07:47, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

The term is written too much in the negative about this hypothesis. Since it is lack of NPOV, I think, I will revise. thanks.--Midville 17:47, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

It's not POV; it's a summary of a published academic article. Please feel free to add positions from other works you can reference. Godfrey Daniel 09:09, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
only composition is done. please review.--Midville 20:48, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm very sorry to have to say it, but Midville's edit was so hard to follow that I had to revert to an earlier version. While I appreciate that he wants to revise the article to include information not presented here, the English just didn't make sense. Godfrey Daniel 09:09, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi, Godfrey. You are so severe.;-) I'm sorry but I'm not disappointed in reverting. I know I'm not good in English. However, I have a lot of information to tell correctly in English. I still need your help. Thanks--Midville 13:26, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Classification's self-inconsistency

The term Japanese language classification includes self-inconsistency. Since the Japanese language is considered to be a "hybrid" or a "multistorey" language. Although most (esp. Japanese) people who believe "only one japan" will deny that scholarly fact for political reasons or innocent wishful thinking, it is the foundation of NPOV-understanding of the term. Concerning the Japanese language, it is (not only encyclopediacly) nonsense to believe "only one hypothesis is true" and to choose a hypothesis and to abandon (or to deny) the other hypothesis. Ladies and gentlemen, how should that be reflected in the main article?--Midville 11:35, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Midville says "the Japanese language is considered to be a "hybrid" [...] language." That is one hypothesis. Here, we have all of the current (and not-so current) hypotheses. None are presented as correct, but they are present in the order that most Western, and many Japanese, scholars find plausible. All are presented with both pros and cons, though I'm sure that each hypothesis' section could be expanded. Godfrey Daniel 09:09, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi, Godfrey. No, no. That is not one hypothesis. Most Japanese language classification hypotheses are premised on "hybrid." Since DNA-based biology proved that the contemporary Japanese people are "hybrid." For example, the Japanese people natively settle in Akita pref. have Caucasoid-marked DNA. The modern Japanese people are the sons of several peoples who had experienced long long treks. When Siberia was still warm, one of main stream peoples lived around Lake Baikal. Most Japanese persons know that fact. Godfrey, I know we have all of the hypotheses, however, subsidiarity among them, relations between them or the premise of them are still not explained. Thanks--Midville 14:39, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
The origin of a people is a separate issue from the origin of their language, and likewise external influences, even where they have resulted in significant language change, are generally ignored in classifying a language; that's why English is still classified as a West Germanic language, even though it has been very heavily influenced by the North Germanic and Romance languages, and the ancestors of significant populations of Americans lived in places like sub-Saharan Africa.
Further, ISTM the article does cover subsidiarity and relations between hypotheses; for example, the section on the extinct Korean-peninsular languages hypothesis explains why modern Korean is not included, while the section on Korean explains how that hypothesis is distinct from the more general Altaic hypothesis, and so forth. — Haeleth Talk 09:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Every human population in the world is "hybrid" in one way or another to some extent. Recent DNA analyses have only proven that the contemporary Japanese population is much more "hybrid" than most others. That does not necessarily have any bearing on the history of the Japanese language, whose degree of "hybridization" is absolutely independent of the degree of genetic intermixing in the history of the Japanese people. The Japanese people could have evolved from a 50%-50% hybridization event and yet their language could still be 100% derived from the language of only one group of their ancestors, or even from the language of some hypothetical foreign imperial rulers. Ebizur 19:12, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other Connections

Somebody put in the following false statement in the 'Other connections' section at the end of the article:

, though in the 1990s, Christopher Beckwith proposed a Japanese-Chinese connection. His efforts were sharply criticized by specialists in Japanese. Now, Beckwith is a proponent of the hypothesis linking Japonic to the extinct Manchurian and Korean Peninsular languages of Goguryeo, Baekje, Buyeo, and Gojoseon.

This is completely untrue. There is no doubt that there are early Chinese loanwords in Japanese (I am not the only one who has studied them), but I never claimed the two languages were related. Note that the statement gives no citation. In short, I am the accused and I never made any such claim.Chris B 05:06, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Austronesian Hypothesis

I added the 'no references/sources' template to this section. I'm not sure if I was right in doing so, but I didn't see any links to sources there. If the sources for this section are simply referenced elsewhere in the article, feel free to remove this template. --TheSlyFox 11:48, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ancient Korean dialect loanwords in Japanese

I have started to formulate a theory that some words in the Japanese language, especially certain botanical names, have been borrowed into the ancestor of the Japanese language from an ancient language of the Korean Peninsula that has left some relics in the modern dialects of the Gyeongsang region of southeastern Korea. Gyeongsang is, of course, the region in which the capital of the ancient kingdom of Silla was located, so it might be possible to identify these words as "ancient Silla dialect words." One example is the Japanese word yuri ("lily"), which I believe is related to the modern Gyeongsang dialect word 돌개 dolgae ("Chinese bellflower, Platycodon grandiflorum"). In Japan, lilies have traditionally been considered a source of food, as their bulbs were often dug up and eaten like onions. As for the Chinese bellflower, its root is a common foodstuff even in today's Korean cuisine. Gyeongsang dialect dolgae appears to ultimately be cognate with Standard Korean 도라지 doraji ("Chinese bellflower"), but I think it is likely that Japanese yuri was borrowed from an ancient Korean form that was directly ancestral to either Gyeongsang dialect dolgae or Standard Korean doraji. I would also point out that various Japanese dialects have aberrant forms for "lily," such as dore (Toyama Prefecture), dōren (another part of Toyama Prefecture), inera (Hachijoo-jima), and *yure or *yore > yuri (Nakijin dialect of Kunigami language in Okinawa; regularly corresponding form would be *yui). Has anyone else encountered a theory that tries to explain some of the Japanese botanical names that display a high degree of irregular correspondences among Japanese dialects as ancient loanwords from a Korean language? Ebizur 05:00, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CI Beckwith's theory

I find the section about CI Beckwith's theory too enthusiastic : his theory, as he has presented it, has not gained general approvment from other scholars, and it has been criticized on several important points. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomaaru (talk • contribs)

[edit] Chinese 'zodiacal dog' 戌 *zyüt

What is the reason to link "Chinese 'zodiacal dog' 戌 *zyüt" to Altaic? Surely, there is no mainstream scholar connecting Chinese and Altaic? If anything, *zyüt must be an early loanword. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 10:32, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Chinese 戌 *zyüt "Dog (of the Asian zodiac)" is probably a loanword from an ancient Austro-Asiatic language, as are most (or all) of the names for the other animals of the Asian zodiac. The word for "dog" in the Munda languages (a subgroup of Austro-Asiatic that is spoken by indigenous tribal peoples in parts of India, such as the Mundas, Bondas, and Santals) is seta or gsod, which is basically identical to the Ainu word for "dog," and also obviously similar to the Chinese name for the Dog of the zodiac. --Ebizur (talk) 18:14, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Intro paragraph

The wording of the first paragraph is rather confusing. What I think it's trying to say, but doesn't actually spell out, is that the "Japanese is an isolate" school of thought assumes that Ryukyu was just a bunch of dialects, but now they're considered languages of their own, and hence it's the Japonic languages together that are in a class of their own. Jpatokal 19:04, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes. So it is. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 17:13, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Final section

Restored some necessary connective tissue to the final section. In particular, it is important to emphasize that relationships can be correctly perceived (e.g. in lexis, phonology, or morphosyntactic alignment) without this perception necessarily resolving by itself whether the relationships are genetic or diffusional. This represents the crux of many controversies in language classification. It isn’t superfluous.

It is also necessary to indicate the interrelationship of the methodological issues in linguistics referred to and future progress in classifying Japanese: only the dialectic between theory and praxis is likely to resolve the more difficult and controversial cases. This too is not superfluous.

VikSol 19:09, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Specious "cognates"

Some nameless user keeps adding a list of unsourced "correspondences" between Japanese and Korean vocabulary. This list is ridiculously amateurish; I might as well make a section for "Japanese relationship to Chinese" and a list of Japanese words that sound sort of similar to Chinese words. You have claimed that Korean /i-/ (copula) is cognate with Japanese /i-/ ([animate] to be), but this is untenable; Modern Japanese /i-/ descends from Classical Japanese /wi-/, and the Korean and Japanese forms are completely different in usage. I might as well claim that Japanese /wi-/ > /i-/ is related to Chinese 為 wéi ("to be; to serve as"). The Japanese and the Chinese forms are historically much closer to each other, both phonetically and semantically, than either is to the Korean copula, /i-/ (which occurs only after consonant-final stems, by the way; this /i-/ morpheme has an allomorph, a null/zero/empty form, which occurs after vowel-final stems).

If you are going to add your list of supposed Japanese-Korean cognates, then I will add a list of Japanese-Chinese cognates and Korean-Ainu cognates, too (e.g. Korean /nun/ "eye" vs. Ainu /nu-kar/ [v.t.] "to see", Korean /ijaki/ "speech, story" vs. Ainu /itak(-i)/ "speech, story," Korean /pjə/ "rice" vs. Ainu /pi(-ye)/ "seed," Korean /ni/ > /i/ "tooth" vs. Ainu /ni-mak/ "tooth" and /ni-rus/ "gums," etc.). This is just a small list that I came up with off the top of my head in less than five minutes; it is amazing how many meaningless similarities human beings are able to convince themselves of seeing even when there is no real pattern in the data.

Anyway, you need to understand that language families are not established on the basis of irregular "lookalikes" of the sort that you have presented on the main page. Please refrain from reposting such irrelevant nonsense, especially without citation of a reliable published source. Ebizur (talk) 08:09, 26 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Change in reference style

I have switched the reference style of the article from footnotes to author-date referencing. If anyone has strong objections to this, I have no problems with switching it back. However, I believe the change is helpful to the article for the following reasons:

The controversies over the relations of Japanese or absence thereof have a very large bibliography, and it is visually easier to survey this in a list of works than in a series of endnotes, which are necessarily interspersed with other material.

I think the bibliography of this article needs to be very substantially expanded.

A list of literature thereby becomes essential, and it would overlap in a confusing way with the notes already given if these are not integrated into the list.

It should be noted that author-date citations have become an extremely popular style of citation in scholarly publications and are an entirely acceptable form of citation on Wikipedia (Wikipedia:Citing sources).

While Wikipedia suggests not changing the established reference style of an article in order to discourage pointless switching back and forth, in this case the need to expand the bibliography seems to me to decide the issue in favor of the change proposed. I hope others will agree. With regards to all. VikSol 01:13, 6 June 2008 (UTC)