Talk:Classical guitar

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I addjjjdjjdjsjbfsu;bfwu'oBG4[HRGHWTGFhuw[Hed a section on technique yesterday. I'll have to go back at some point and add all the cross-references. Also, I suppose I should tidy up the grammar too. --Benzzene 10:52, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I made quite a few changes to this page today. I would be happy to discuss them with anyone. Especially the things I deleted. For example, pick guards are not a feature of the classical guitar and so it seemed unecessary to even mention them. Also, classical guitar can be amplified but it seemed not quite right to discuss it in a description of an acoustic instrument. User:Wghezzi 04:05, 9 June 2006


Does the information about Greg Williams focusing on playing Wedding Ceremonies in Northern Calfifornia really belong in an Encyclopedia article about Classical Guitar? I'm asking because I honestly am not sure.Randyoo 04:12, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Personally, I do not think he should be included. Did he school under any great guitar teachers\masters? Does not seem he has any claim to fame.(IchBin 01:58, 29 December 2005 (UTC))

(IchBin 01:58, 29 December 2005 (UTC)madre foca hey hehehehheh haaaaaaa ur a dick head ) Added birth/deaths for Modern performers

(IchBin 22:12, 31 December 2005 (UTC)) Added one more birth date

Why are the three lowest strings wound with metal?

When you say lowest I presume you're talking about pitch, If you hold a classical guitar and feel the strings you'll notice with the treble strings that the highest pitch string is thinner than the lower pitch treble strings, with the bass strings (the ones wound with metal) and wound with metal to lower the pitch. I presume they weren't wound metal, they would be unanable to get the strings that are pure nylon at a lower pitch as it would be difficult to get thick nylon and it would be very uncomfortable to play if they did get the strings that thick.

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Contents

[edit] Nice link

http://www.eythorsson.com/en/

You can add this link. Nice scores. User:333 14:41, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

You mean nice rubbish link it appears to be one of those domain name place holders more then anything else. Somebody here with more authority please delete it and my reply to it Alan Kroeger 19:36, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Well actually it is well known link for guitar sheet music that is pretty well regarded. Click on "The Guitar School" link where you will find heaps of PDF's of student pieces, solos, duo, trio arrangements etc. So may well be worth keeping but perhaps as en external link? --Thewizardalbany 10:04, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

well i am doing a repost on the acoustic guitar and need all the help i can get so if u know any info thats not made upi please fell free to post here! thanks for not helping


help me, i am doin a report on guitars and need more info. know any good sites or any info? post here and do not dare post made up stuff for i play guitar and know a lot and well be totlay pissed off if u do post jusnk please help me i am a man in destress!

[edit] Listing of features

Is this the best way to describe the guitar (as a list)?--Light current 15:59, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


Maybe there's some virtue in having the very good diagram, and corresponding sections, but you're right, reducing things to a list tends to destroy the flow. A compromise might be found between the thoroughness of the list and the readability of the narrative. (On a side note, I found it curious that the article informs readers, correctly, that most classical nylon-strings don't use or need a truss rod, and then proceeded to explain a great deal about what a truss rod does, even how to adjust one.) Maybe the listed entries can be streamlined? C d h 03:13, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Modern performers

The link to Adam Holzman goes to a jazz keyboardist, not the classical guitar performing artist and professor at University of Texas. I don't really know how to fix that. --Amazzing5 01:19, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Redundancy

There is a lot of duplicate information between this page and List of composers for the classical guitar and some with Classical guitar music. Perhaps there could be --some-- merging (at least of information). This page has much better organization than the list, but not as many composers. I understand the concept of having the "highlights" so to speak, but it still seems like a lot of room for error. Also, very few of the composers show up in Category:Composers for guitar. --Amazzing5 16:26, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


  • I merged the part Modern performers with the page Classical guitarists. I think that we should also move or merged the other lists of this page.

The article lacks information on the importance of the subject matter, we should really expand it.

User:Tommaso456 24 June 2006

[edit] Tabs

Would it be frowned upon to add a link to classical guitar tabs? If not, add www.classtab.org to the links. Lovok 18:01, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes. I'm not assessing whether tabs are good or bad, I'm just saying they don't belong in the field of classical guitar. It would be something like giving standard notation to a rock guitarist. F15x28 02:14, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. Allthough tabs usually don't have as much information as sheet music they are still useful for many people. I myself think that it is nice to have the tabs in addition to the normal notes, as it is easier to visualize where you are supposed to place your fingers Hauberg 08:49, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I have been playing classical guitar for 4 years using only tabs. Lauro - Negrito, Adrienne, Natalia, many others. I think a link to tabs has a place 24.164.158.180 01:01, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Nuh! Sorry I disagree with the notion of TABS for classical guitar on the following grounds.

1. There are thousands of pieces available to play that have not been tabbed. Why would you deny yourself? 2. Part of the joy of having a training as a classical guitarist is being able to read music and participate in music making activities with musicians who play other classical instruments and are also able to read music. Why would you deny yourself that opportunity? 3. Playing classical guitar is not just a matter of learning to play a few pieces of music from memory primarily by memorising fingering patterns. 4. It takes years to learn to do it well and so it should! --Thewizardalbany 11:50, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

While all of the abovementioned points I do agree to on a certain level, it cannot be denied that tablature serves to encourage guitarists to cross disciplines and begin training in the art. As another aside perhaps not immediately relevant to the discussion, original sources for the music of John Dowland (lute) and Luys Milan (vihuela)to name but a few appear only in tab form. Although it is not in the form we see today I would argue that perhaps we should not dismiss this century old tradition as inferior as we do owe the modern stature of the guitar in art music to the hard work of those that came before us. --Lennon808808 12:06, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Well Yes! - But why not just learn to read music to begin with for goodness sake. And yeah It is hard and takes time but all of us who have learnt to read appreciate what it ultimately provides - a vastly improved musical life! Then explore vihuela and lute music in their original notation if you feel the need but they are a damn site easier to read in standard notation!!!!!!!!!!!! But then of course if you were a vihuela player or lutenist, I would be inclined to learn the original notation but hey this is a classical guitar site! --Thewizardalbany 09:53, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

You all talk as though tablature is a newfound thing, but it has been around since the 1300's, according to Wikipedia itself. Tablature can also be written with time markings, so that it looks just like standard notation, except with six bar lines and numbers instead of note heads. This was how it had been written for hundreds of years, along side standard notation. Just to let you know. 69.157.52.115 01:19, 14 May 2007 (UTC)


Agreed. Tablature is what you make of it, and with enough effort, can be quite detailed and informative (graphically and otherwise). It also seems out of character for a encyclopedia article to take a stand on what guitarists should or should not find enjoyable or pleasureable about playing the guitar. I don't mean to suggest that there is no room for discussion on the issue. There is, but doesn't it belong in the wiki entry devoted to tabs, or even a general discussion of the various types of notation? That would be the natural place to argue that some (not all) guitarists tend to look down on tab notation, whereas others incorporate it into their practice. C d h 03:17, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Glitch-ish

When the Contents panel is hidden, the portal section moves up the screen and half of it can no longer be seen. Lovok 18:41, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Geographically/culturally biased?

The first paragraph of the article says:

This instrument is most commonly used by classical guitarists playing classical music, but is also used for folk music.

This is not true in many parts of the world, where the kind of guitar the article concerns itself with (called acoustic guitar or simply guitar in many places) is one of the most common instruments (if not the most common) in popular music of all kinds, from folk to rock. Latin America and the Iberian Peninsula come to mind as the most prominent examples.

Of course, the current name of the article is Classical guitar, which doesn't help. I don't know much about guitars, but it seems to me that there is no difference between the acoustic guitar that is used as a popular instrument in so many places, and the classical guitar of the article. Acoustic guitar is currently a disambiguation page, and of the articles listed on it, it seems like steel-string guitar is the next in affinity with the acoustic guitar in those settings, but those guitars aren't always steel-strung (probably most of the time, at least outside of the US, they are not).

Maybe, if there actually is a subtype of acoustic guitar that is specific to classical music and different from the popular-music type, the article should be split in two; Maybe the name of the article should be changed, maybe even acoustic guitar should host the content that is here now, with a separate disambiguation page?

I am putting in a "globalize" tag. --Cotoco 04:36, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, there is a difference between the steel-string acoustic and classical guitars. Classical guitar generally refers to the type used to play classical music, whereas folk music is generally played using an acoustic guitar. The two types are very close, but not exactly the same. I'm going to remove the tag. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 00:10, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the input, but you may have misunderstood me. As I said, in many places the NON-steel-string acoustic guitar, which as far as I can tell is identical to the "classic guitar" of the article, is the most common type of guitar used in popular music. Steel-string guitars might be the most common type of popular-music guitar in North America, but that's not the case in other places. --Cotoco 04:54, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
There is a big difference in the formalized use of particular techniques. Let say someone uses a guitar with nylon or gut strings and plays a type of folk music like... Flamenco for instance. Now some Flamenco players have classical style techniques and have had formal training. But Flamenco is not about Classical type technique it is about song forms and the technique used by the performer is entirely up to them. Flamenco guitars (as an example) are generally smaller and easier to play but in Flamenco there is not any formalized rule about instruments and there construction just general trends. The guitar type isn't always that important Classical Guitar is more about particular techniques under that you have formalized groups of styles Baroque, Romantic, etc. I also have to comment that a classical Guitar is a type of acoustic guitar so if there is something to change it has more to do with hierarchy then anything else. So I think the globalize tag should be removed and discussion of hierarchy should take place elsewhere. There may be errors but I wonder if it is just an error in understanding that the term classical guitar is an authentic technique and methodology and not a type of instrument. Alan Kroeger 19:17, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
You're still missing the point. What kind of instrument do people like, for example, João Gilberto or Silvio Rodríguez play? Which article should cover that instrument and the full range of music styles and performers that use it? Cotoco's claim is that the instrument is exactly the same as the one described in this article, and that this article is the place to cover it.
There's a very crucial ambiguity here that's not being acknowledged: the term "classical guitar" can be interpreted to mean a specific instrument that's used to play many different genres of music (Iberian and Latin American folk and popular music, including nueva trova, fado, some types of samba, bossa nova), or, alternatively, a specific kind of music that's played with that instrument, called "classical guitar." Therefore, the key question here is how to organize the two topics, and an answer that does not address that is simply a bad answer.
One proposal would be two article,: Classical guitar (instrument), and Classical guitar (music). Another would be to dedicate this article to the instrument, and create Classical guitar (music) to cover the classical genre. Yet a third is to use a different article to cover the instrument itself and its full range of styles and techniques; e.g. use either the Spanish guitar article or the Acoustic guitar article. 209.204.188.184 03:56, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gut Strings

Nylon strings are not gut strings. Nylon is a synthetic material that was not created until sometime in the 20th century. Gut strings are made from ox's guts and have a good history of predating Nylon strings. I would like the section where it refers to Nylon strings as gut to be altered to be more historically accurate.

  • At Wikipedia, anyone can be an editor. If you identify a section that needs alterations or additions, and have the knowledge to make them, then please do so! Jerry picker 16:34, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Solid vs. laminated wood

Where the article says:

> The finest guitars are built with a solid Western red cedar or spruce top, solid rosewood back and sides,

Inexpensive instruments are made with laminated rather than solid wood since laminated is cheaper and less susceptible to cracking during assembly and shipping. However, some of the world's finest classical guitars are also made with laminated back and/or sides not for cost or durability issues but because of the maker's theory of design. John Williams, the patriarch of players since Segovia's passing, plays a guitar made by Greg Smallman of Australia, the back and sides of which are made with laminated wood. Ana Vidovic, an incredibly talented player in her twenties, plays a guitar made by Jim Redgate that also uses laminated back and sides. Ramirez of Spain makes models with laminated sides and others with solid sides; his most expensive models use laminated wood. Christopher Parkening plays a Ramirez guitar. Friederich of France uses laminated sides; Angel Romero plays one.

Well materials, accepted construction methods, etc have changed through time ecological and availability of materials issues exist now that didn't even 30 years ago. So it is more a matter of describing these factors. Now you probably see a few complaints already exist about the length of this article. If there was an attempt to add an aspect of every deviation and variation then the article would have to be longer then it is. At the very least there would need to be a sub page for everything that is implied or written here. Best bet is to leave it out and get rid of terminology like "The finest" say something like this "Many guitars are built with a solid Western red cedar or spruce top, solid rosewood back and sides but there are versions that use laminated woods for all or portions of the instrument. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alankroeger (talk • contribs) 19:46, 27 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Frets/fretwires

In the Frets topic:

> Frets are the spaces between the fretwires which are the metal strips (usually nickel alloy or stainless steel) embedded along the fretboard

This is non-standard usage, and I'm surprised to see it. Nearly everyone, if not everyone, uses the word "fret" the way this author is using "fretwire". The fret, in standard usage, is the metal wire across the fretboard. Players refer to fret wire only in specific discussion about e.g. how large they are on a particular instrument, or whether they are worn. Jrethorst 03:22, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] type of guitar

this article is far too long. it seems to treat the classical guitar as a unique instrument instead of describing the characteristics that set it apart from a normal guitar. this page could be cut down considerably if we remove all the information pertinent to guitars in general (i.e. how it's tuned, what the frets and neck are, etc) and focus on what is unique to classical guitars. 67.172.61.222 23:49, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Classical guitar is the "normal" kind of guitar. The evolution of modern steel string and electric instruments is in direct descent from the Spanish guitar of Sor and Tarrega.Jerry picker 23:56, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
so why does it have it's own page when it contains the majority of the same content as the guitar article? 67.172.61.222 23:28, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Repertoire

"the major honors for commissioning a modern repertoire for guitarists have to go to Julian Bream of Great Britain" I just don't understand since when guitar repertoire is attributed to Julian Bream! I acknowledge him as a great guitar player, but what is Andres Segovia's role then? Maestro Bream did not contribute to the repertoire to the extend Maestro Segovia did. Such statements pale Maestro Segovia's contribution to classical guitar repertoire.

(Flamur)

[edit] Modernising the physical characteristics

Not meaning to cause offence here, but I couldn't help but notice that the picture in the article was rather... old. I think that in order to keep up with the times, we should show a moderner guitar that can demonstrate to the reader that, classical guitars can have cut outs to access the higher frets and an example where a pick up is used with the option to change the tone of your guitar. --Mikeoman 23:00, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

That's ridiculous. The shape and size of the standard classical concert guitar have not changed significantly since the innovations in design Torres made in the mid-19th Century. Although guitars can have modifications such as a cutaways or amplification, you will never see a virtuoso concert guitarist performing in a concert hall with such a guitar. The guitar pictured accurately represents how a true classical guitar appears today 88/rosette/88 00:55, 27 February 2007 (UTC).

I agree completely ridiculous. I don't know many classical guitarists who would choose to use a cut away classical with a pick up rather than a decent concert guitar made by one of the many great luthiers in the world today that looks exactly the image in question! --Thewizardalbany 11:41, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Classical Guitar Social Networking Site

Hi People

Very nice Wiki on the Classical Guitar! I have added an external link to a social networking page specifically for Classical Guitarists which I hope you or any of your Wiki viewers will take the time to visit and perhaps become a member of.

The site is called "The Classical Guitar Network" --Thewizardalbany 11:38, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Evolution of the guitar.

I would like to question the sources of the statement appearing at the beginning of the article.

"The history of the classical guitar and its repertoire span over four centuries, including its ancestor the baroque guitar."

While it cannot be denied that the two instruments by similar name are related, there appears to be little or no information either in the article baroque guitar, or in the article classical guitar in regard to the baroque guitar itself. It seems then to be slightly inappropriate to mention the baroque guitar as the 'ancestor' without justification and perhaps I might suggest that given the role of the Baroque guitar being closer in nature to other accompaniment instruments in the continuo ,as it was mainly strummed and almost never a solo medium, it would be more appropriate to follow the music of the Vihuela as a solo contapunctal instrument through to the 19th Century guitar music of the Classical period. Or alternatively I would suggest leaving them separate altogether and beginning the Classical guitar article not as an evolution of the instruments construction but rather an evolution of function\style beinning with the classical period. I believe the current opening statement to be both confusing and somewhat misleading.

--Lennon808808 12:34, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

During final construction, a small section of the outside corners is carved or routed out and then filled binding material on the outside corners and decorative strips of material next to the binding, which are called purfling

212.159.75.178 01:54, 28 July 2007 (UTC) Sorry but this is not the English language as I understand it.