Talk:Clarksville, Indiana
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Article Grading: It has all the requirements for a town/city article, including history, so I gave it B class. Due to its size and notable history, I gave it High importance.--Bedford 15:46, 5 September 2006 (UTC) |
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[edit] References
- This article has no references. Jahnx 12:52, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] first settlement in the northwest territory
I am thinking about doing some work on this article with refs and such. I have a question though in case any other editer watches this article. It state that clarksville is the first settlement in the northwest territory. Now does this mean the first american settlement? First permenant settlment? Or just what. The reason I ask is that Vincennes was established as early as 1712 as a stockade and maintained a permenant european presence, with women and priests, from about 1750 on. The french also had some non permenant settlements during the early and mid 1700s. I am going to try and research that out a little, but if someone knows the awnser off-hand it would be most usful! Thanks. Charles Edward 14:48, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
- I recently acquired the nomination form for the Old Clarksville Site, so I'll look at its terminology, but it probably is "First American settlement".--Bedford 16:15, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
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- I think someone tried to refine the text of the article to sound better and it came out to be an error. The Town of Clarksville is the Oldest American Town in the Northwest Territory while Vincennes, Indiana might be the Oldest settlement in the Northwest Territory. While Vincennes started out as town it is now a city. Which would make Clarksville the oldest Town, and also Vinvennes started out as a French establishment so inserting the term American would provide that it is fine to bill it as the Oldest American Town.... This should be clarified, but I think a consensus should be reached before doing so. The current statement includes it to be the oldest American establishment, Which it becomes unclear when we could consider Vincinnes, American. This is all in the terminology and I think it would be best to use "Clarksville is the Oldest American Town in the Northwest Territory" to help avoid confusion -Jahnx (talk) 23:51, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
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- I think that sounds good. Vincennes is definatly of French orgin, the very name is French, and it's inhabitants where largely francophone and formed a majority of the population until at least 1785, and where the principle landholders until at least 1804 according to "The Colonial History of Vincennes" by Judge Law. Lafayette( Fort Ouitonenon) and Fort Wayne(Fort Miamis) would be the only other two "settlments" of note, but it appears that both of the, had a lapse of time where they were uninhabited during the 1760s-1780s, and both were also of definate french origin at that time. I think "Clarksville is the oldest American Town in the Northwest Territory" or "Clarksville is the oldest American settlement in the Northwest Territory" is fine. Also I think it would be ok to say "Clarksville is the second oldest permanent settlement in the Indiana." or "Clarksville is the third oldest permanent settlement in the Northwest Territory" (Vincennes and Detriot would both be older). Charles Edward 01:44, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
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[edit] My findings on the old settlements of the Northwest Territory
I've never read a source that says "Clarksville is the third oldest permanent Settlement", so for that reason in my be inapporriate to add it. But it can be established. There where non-permanent settlments established by the french in Indiana, (i will use the modern names to avoid confusion) Lafayette, Fort Wayne, Terre Haute, and Vincennes. After the French Indian war the English took all three posts. Vincennes was kept with a more or less permanent garrison and a french population (which was largely mixed the the natives) where permitted to stay there and the settlment and land titles where conferred to them by the British, "The Colonial History of Vincennes, By Judge Law", so vincennes is established as permanent from about 1755 or so on. Lafayette, Terre Haute, and Fort Wayne where all also capture by the Brits. No such land grants where given their inhabitants because they were almost entirely native americans. The Brits destroyed the forts by the 1770s and forced the french to leave to areas except for trade, "Empires At War, by William M. Fowler" That establishes those three as abandoned between 1770 and at least until 1785 or so when the Americans decided to build forts there (this is also why the names changed, because they were not a continuation of the old settlment), So that establishes Indiana's pre-clarksville settlements
Now the whole of the Northwest Territory includes some other some other settlments. But there, the only permenant one, where the brits didnt run out the french was Detriot (they ran out the french but the Brits's remained there permantly until the Americans took it). That Establishes detriot as older than clarksville. Now the only other settlment of any note was kasaskia. And I am not perfectly sure about that. So i will try to look it up. Empires at War is a good book to reference all this in because it notes the explusion of the French and whether or not the Brits kept it. Charles Edward 19:03, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- Viola! Kaskaskia was, Grand Village of the Illinois, was abandoned in 1691 first. It was rebuilt a few years later. Then in 1763 the British entirely destroyed it. It was rebuilt again about 1770 only be capture by clark in the revolution. Then it was the capitol of Illinois Territory for two years and later capitol of that state. Today it is population nine and incorporated as a village.
- Also I have found a good list in a book called "Land of Promise: The Story of the Northwest Territory, by Walter Havighurst" It lists them in this order from the oldest to newest 1.Detriot-1701 2.Vincennes-1732 3.Green Bay - 1754. 4. Clarksville - 1783. 5.Kaskaskia 1787, 6.the next four are all in ohio in fairly rapid succession. It looks like he is using their incorporation dates though, not the date of the first settlers. These all appear, except detriot, to have had settlers for several years before their incorporation Charles Edward 12:36, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
