Talk:Clarence Thomas

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Contents 1 Suggested Edit 1.1 DOE not introduced before abreviated 1.2 Full Name? 1.3 New WaPo article on Thomas 2 Zigzagoon 3 POV 3.1 Anita Hill POV 3.1.1 Opinion piece on WaPo regarding Hill controversy 3.2 Pro-Thomas POV 3.3 Splitting out Anita Hill controversy 4 Long article compared to other SC justices 5 Judicial philosophy 5.1 Libertarianism section 5.2 Thomas is NOT an Objectivist 5.3 Philosophy vs. Ideology 5.4 Affirmitave action 6 Career 6.1 Appointment 6.2 Early career 6.3 Early Career Clarification 6.4 Unexpected Rulings 7 External links to cases 8 Thomas's voting record/reversing congressional decisions 9 Ancestry 9.1 Gullah??? 9.2 Gullah Heritage in Autobiography? 10 Playboy Origins of High Tech Lynching 11 Limbaugh wedding 12 Allegations in The Nine 13 Re-considering 1st paragraph edit? 14 Footnotes 15 Unreferenced POV 16 Overlinking 17 Missing Witnesses and bad title under the "Allegations of sexual harassment" section

[edit] Suggested Edit

[edit] DOE not introduced before abreviated

The DOE reference here is not previously referenced in full. It should then have words before (intials). Is it Department of Energy? --Mokru 21:22, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Full Name?

Does Clarence Thomas not have a middle name? --unknown user --Mokru 22:02, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New WaPo article on Thomas

The Washinton Post just did an article on Thomas's history that I thought might have some interesting facts if anyone wanted to add them to the article. The article can be found here Washington Post article about Thomas Remember 23:19, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I added a sentence about Thomas taking custody of his great-nephew. I'm not sure whether it's worth adding more information from the article, such as his strained relationship with his relatives, none of whom have enjoyed the type of success that he has. Techielaw 01:44, 23 April 2007 (UTC) he is one of the best supreme court judge that is alive.[[Image:

Example.jpg

]]

Is this the Op-Ed mentioned in the section where they discuss Anita Hill's accusation?--Mokru 21:03, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Zigzagoon

Is it ok If i put the info from Zigzagoon the pokemon onto Clarence Thomas's page? thanks--169.233.14.15 03:27, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

No, I don't think so. Thanks for asking first. -Will Beback 07:28, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV

I agree that the NPOV tag on the indicated section is a good idea. In fact, I think that the whole article should have a POV label as it is currently constructed. I made a few tweaks myself, (for instance, I put in the reason that Thomas' voting with Scalia matters -- i.e., some people say he has no mind of his own. As it was, there was the refutation but no accusation.) But more needs to be done than I have time or patience for. Things that really need to be changed include:

-- some discussion of the perception that Thomas is not qualified for his position is needed. This would include the counter-accusations that such perceptions are racist.

-- Links to negative articles about Thomas (I didn't check every link, but they seemed overwhelmingly positive.)

--A discussion of the extent to which Thomas' position as an originalist is disputed (that is, he says he's an originalist, but others claim that he's a political hack, who abandons his principles when convenient. Here's a link. [1]

In this context, the section about Hill's accusations is especially disturbing -- I don't know enough to balance them, but the bias of the rest of the article strongly suggests that someone needs to. NoahB 19:07, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

NO, NO, NO!!!! This is absolutely wrong. Dear NoahB: if you have constructive changes to the article, by all means make those changes, but to just come along and mark the whole document non NPOV that's way outside of the spirit of Wikipedia. YOU are to be the EDITOR, not the judge. What do you think you are going to do??? Just mark it non-NPOV and then sit back and wait for others to make changes and then when YOU are happy then you will remove the non-NPOV??? That is is completely one-sided and not within the spirit of Wikipedia. Make the changes that you have suggested above and then others will come along and decide if those changes make sense. But a blanket comment that the article is non-NPOV and then you walk away is not Wikipedia.-----Keetoowah 22:23, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

I made a couple changes and suggested others. I thought that people could check the talk page and decide for themselves if they agreed with me and/or if the POV sticker should stay. NoahB 20:07, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

But I think you're probably right that, as a practical matter at least, I shoudn't have put the POV sticker up if I wasn't ready to spend a ton of time working on the article. So my apologies; I will try to be more careful in future. NoahB 20:20, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I've added a POV warning to the part on his appointment, because frankly, a large part of it seems to have the unequivocal goal of making Anita Hill look bad. I need your thoughts on this. Deltabeignet 02:04, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have to admit, I am surprised. For a figure as contentious as Justice Thomas, this article presents his life and views in a very informative and non-POV manner. Wikipedia would be a much better place if only other political figures could be covered this way. Giles22 22:15, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

This article is far from neutral. It reads like a political ad for Clarence Thomas. Anita Hill did not come forward of her own accord. I must review the record but she was no nut job. Also, people can disagree concerning events. Thomas deserves a more neutral article. I disagree with him. This article is glowing PR.75Janice 23:35, 3 January 2007 (UTC)75Janice 11:34 UTC 3 January 2007

[edit] Anita Hill POV

I added the sections that you mention. Are you disputing the facts involved? It certainly seems indisputably factual, for example, that the women who worked for Thomas and with Hill came forward to support Thomas, while Hill's supporter (Angela Wright) had been fired for calling another employee a "faggot." So it wasn't just a simple matter of "he said, she said." Isn't it intellectually honest to consider these women's testimony for whatever it's worth? If the situation were reversed -- if all these women had come forward to testify, "Yes, Thomas was a pervert, he was always harassing me as well" -- wouldn't that be worth including? Well, then, why not here?

As for the contradictions in Hill's testimony, well, again the facts speak for themselves. If anyone can identify self-contradictions in Thomas's testimony, feel free to add those as well.

Please don't. That would constitute original research. All negative comments about living persons must be both notable and reliably sourced. MoodyGroove 20:58, 19 June 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove

For example, it is an undebatable fact that (a) Hill had called Thomas a dozen times over the years, including one time when she left a message containing her hotel room number, and that (b) Hill originally tried to deny that these calls were made, but was forced to concede that they had happened. Now imagine the situation in reverse: Imagine that Hill had alleged that Thomas called her a dozen times at her apartment, that Thomas had denied doing so, but that phone records had then been produced showing that Thomas had definitely made those calls, and that Thomas basically had to admit that he was lying. Wouldn't that be exceedingly relevant in judging his credibility?

• He's right...it's not so much that there was a deliberate attempt by the author of the section in question to make Prof. Hill look bad as it is that Prof. Hill's case was so utterly ridiculous that there is no supporting evidence to present here.

The problem isn't the so-called "facts" (I think you mean the evidence, by the way, not the facts), but your presentation of them. You thought it relevant that certain members of the Judiciary Committee were Democrats, but never pointed out that the Senators making comments that helped Thomas's case were Republican. So I added that. You also characterized what was nothing more than a particular speaker's belief as "observations" and the like, which made it sound like the statement was "factual" when it was really an opinion. So I changed that, too. I also made some grammar corrections, and edited out irrelevant portions of your quotes from Thomas's opinions. Also, BTW, many of Thomas's views about original meanings of the text aren't so widely accepted by serious scholars, which says nothing of the core policy problems of originalism, both of which issues are probably better left to another article.d

[DELETED BY User:MoodyGroove per WP:BLP] This article only mentions sexual harrassment. KannD86 17:55, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Random, speculative 'heard it someplace' pseudo-information will be deleted on sight per WP:V and WP:BLP. MoodyGroove 20:58, 19 June 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove

i came across this page as a result of recent news reports. the section on Anita Hill was clearly written by someone who takes Thomas's side. i see from previous discussion that this section used to be even worse, but it is still far from unbiased. it contains one sentence introducing the allegation, and then consists entirely of rebuttals. it doesn't even contain a clear description of what the allegations were, much less try to present the pro/con arguments fairly (or, for that matter, present the "pro" arguments at all!). Benwing 03:54, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

here's one example:

Hill's supporters later insisted that relevant testimony from Angela Wright, a PR director for the EEOC and a witness to the alleged offensive conduct, was suppressed, even though the Democrats controlled the Senate. Democrats were reluctant to call Angela Wright as a witness after Thomas testified that he had fired her for calling another employee a 'faggot.' [10]

text like "even though the Democrats controlled the Senate" is clearly POV that's attempting to discredit the facts even as they are introduced. furthermore, the cited reference does not appear to substantiate the "Democrats were reluctant to ..." claim. it simply says that she got "cold feet", along with one *Republican* senator (Simpson) asserting that she was discredited. Benwing 04:13, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

You're right. I've removed what looked to me like the biggest BLP violations from that section. I was surprised to find this section in such bad shape given how high-profile the issue has been lately. I also suggested in an edit summary that we get rid of the whole David Brock paragraph; I think his claims are tangential to the case and better suited for the article on Brock. The only other sentence in the paragraph is unsourced opinion. --Allen 01:09, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Opinion piece on WaPo regarding Hill controversy

This article [2] has some interesting assertions in it to support why the author takes Hill's side over Thomas's side. Does anyone think some of this information should be included? Remember 19:27, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

It depends on how its included. I don't know if an Op-Ed piece on the Anita Hill controversy from this year will necessarily fit as a reliable source. If the source is included as an example of how this person takes Anita Hill's side, that's one thing, but I'm not sure that's notable. However, I doubt that an Op-Ed piece's assertions themselves can used as a reliable source in a wikipedia article. This is especially true considering that the writer is obviously taking a biased view point. I guess you could include some her refutations of Thomas' points in his book, but you risk taking an already large section in this article and extending it even further. The detail should reflect the notability of the event in relation to everything else in the article. The Anita Hill controversy is significant, but its far from the most significant thing about Thomas. --Jdcaust 19:12, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Checking the Anita Hill section again, it seems to be prominent because of a long quote from Thomas. Perhaps a better way to cover this controversy is to remove or cut-down the quote, then give a cited overview of both Thomas' and Hill's side of the events. In any case, the section could use some improvement. --Jdcaust 19:15, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree the section might need work, but removing the commentary of Thomas at the hearing is not a good way to edit the section. There is no one whose opinion at that hearing is more important than Thomas's. Also, there is no opinion of any commentator who wasn't at that hearing that is as important as Thomas's, especially as this particular article is concerned. This article is about Thomas and he deserves to have his side of the story told, from his perspective, not the perspective of Rush Limbaugh or Ted Kennedy or Joe Biden. Any cited overview is going to be slanted whether it comes from a pro-Thomas supporter or a anti-Thomas supporter. From that perspective is much better to have him speak for himself and let the reader decide, not some Wikipedian. And remember that is the point of view that this encyclopedia aims to take, a neutral one. It is his article, not Anita Hill's, not Ted Kennedy's. Thomas should have his say, and not the truncated words of a Wikipedian, if it is then we run the risk of bringing POV into the article.--JobsElihu 02:10, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pro-Thomas POV

The position that Anita Hill's case against Thomas was ridiculous isn't a neutral presentation of the controversy, it's advocacy for a particular POV. The long recitation of evidence tending to undercut Hill's credibility is not in and of itself POV. What is POV is the failure to balance that evidence with a similarly sympathetic presentation of the other side of the issue. There are two sentences describing Hill's charges. Then there are eight paragraphs, some of them quite lengthy, rebutting them (or, more precisely, questioning Hill's motivations and credibility).

I've got no problem with the author(s) of that section holding the view that Hill's charges weren't credible. I've got no problem with that point of view being represented in the article. I do have a problem with the article being used as a vehicle to present that point of view as the "correct" one, to the exclusion of the competing point of view.

I happen to believe that Anita Hill largely told the truth in those hearings. I don't only believe that based on my dislike of Clarence Thomas's politics and my low opinion of his qualifications to be a Supreme Court justice. I believe it based on the assessment I made at the time of Thomas's confirmation hearings, based on watching the testimony and reading news accounts. I'm sure I'm not alone in holding that view. And that view isn't represented in the article.

The article needs to present a balanced treatment of that issue if it's going to live up to the NPOV policy. At the moment, it doesn't. It reads like a pro-Thomas puff piece. -- John Callender 1 July 2005 16:38 (UTC)

Feel free to updte this entry with any evidence that supports Anita Hill's claims. I also feel that the article goes to great lengths to show the flaws in her testimony; if there are similar flaws in Clarence Thomas' claims, they should be posted. However, you will probably have to do a bit better than your own personal assessment of the hearings and news accounts at the time.

Yes, obviously. You'll note that I didn't put the negative characterization I gave above on the article page itself, because I understand that that wouldn't be appropriate there. But as an indication of where I'm coming from in questioning the article's current NPOV status, I thought (and think) it was an appopriate thing for me to mention here on the talk page.

Also, after reading the previous discussion on this page regarding tagging the article with a NPOV-dispute warning, and carefully reading Wikipedia:NPOV dispute, I think the article does currently merit an NPOV-dispute warning, and I'm going to add one to it momentarily. Please note, though, that I intend to work to correct the problems I see in it (which I've described above). I'm not simply slapping that warning on it and "walking away". I look forward to working with the other people who care about this article to help improve it to the point where it no longer needs the NPOV-dispute warning. -- John Callender 05:01, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Doesn't it seem like this could be easily rectified by decreasing the Anita Hill information in the Clarence Thomas article and adding additional information about the specific case to an Anita Hill entry or a new entry. Even just using the information present might be sufficient:

" Toward the expected end of the confirmation hearings, Democratic staffers for the committee leaked to the media the contents of an FBI report which reported that a former colleague of Thomas, University of Oklahoma law school professor Anita Hill, had accused him of sexually harassing her when the two had worked together at the US Department of Education and Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC). However, seemingly contradictory statements by Anita Hill and additional testimony for Thomas by former female associates weakened the case against him. In the end, the Committee did not find sufficient evidence to corroborate Anita Hill's claim. Hill's supporters later insisted that relevant testimony from Angela Wright, a PR director for the EEOC and a witness to the alleged offensive conduct, was suppressed, even though the Democrats controlled the Senate. (Democrats were reluctant to call Angela Wright as a witness after Thomas testified that he had fired her for calling another employee a 'faggot.')"

It's a lot less data, and the rest of the case information can be placed into another article or incorporated into an existing article. It also eliminates a fair share of the neutrality issue. -- Cognizant

Yeah, I think that's a huge improvement. I've followed this suggestion, removing a lot of the current detailed treatment of Hill's credibility. If someone thinks it's worth preserving, I'd suggest the creation of a Clarence Thomas Confirmation Controversy page (or somesuch) and giving this material a home there. I've put the removed text below, for easy access. -- John Callender 05:33, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Toward the expected end of the confirmation hearings, Democratic staffers for the committee leaked to the media the contents of an FBI report which reported that a former colleague of Thomas, University of Oklahoma law school professor Anita Hill, had accused him of sexually harassing her when the two had worked together at the US Department of Education and Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC). In particular, Hill alleged that Thomas had openly discussed his interest in pornographic films featuring the actor Long Dong Silver and that he had once shown her a can of Coca-Cola and asked her why someone had placed a pubic hair on it.

Hill was summoned to testify before the committee, and the hearings were broadcast on national television. When questioned about the allegations, Thomas emotionally called the hearings "a high-tech lynching for uppity blacks". Thomas avoided answering the charges directly until forced to do so; ultimately he rested on a blanket denial of all the accusations.

Hill's detractors alleged that her claims were implausible. Hill had not lodged a complaint in the ten years after the alleged harassment. Also she sought to continue working for Thomas when he moved to the EEOC from the Department of Education, despite the alleged history of harassment. Hill's advocates argued that Hill was merely trying to further her career and that, despite the fact that she was a Yale Law graduate, she had no other options for employment.

Almost all of Thomas's former female associates and employees supported him over Hill. As Senator Joseph Lieberman stated at the time, "I have contacted associates, women who worked with Judge Thomas during his time at the Department of Education and EEOC, and in the calls that I and my staff have made there has been universal support for Judge Thomas and a clear indication by all of the women we spoke to that there was never, certainly not, a case of sexual harassment, and not even a hint of impropriety." Many of those former female associates testified on Thomas's behalf. For example, Nancy Altman from the Department of Education testified: "I consider myself a feminist. I am pro-choice. I care deeply about women's issues. In addition to working with Clarence Thomas at the Department of Education, I shared an office with him for two years in this building. Our desks were a few feet apart. Because we worked in such close quarters, I could hear virtually every conversation for two years that Clarence Thomas had. Not once in those two years did I ever hear Clarence Thomas make a sexist or offensive comment, not once. . . . It is not credible that Clarence Thomas could have engaged in the kinds of behavior that Anita Hill alleges, without any of the women who he worked closest with -- dozens of us, we could spend days having women come up, his secretaries, his chief of staff, his other assistants, his colleagues -- without any of us having sensed, seen or heard something."

Hill's detractors also pointed to many contradictions in her testimony. For example, she initially denied any knowledge of a news report that Senate staffers had told her that "her signed affidavit alleging sexual harassment by Clarence Thomas would be the instrument that would quietly and behind the scenes, would force him to withdraw his name." Senator Arlen Specter said that after consulting with her lawyers, Hill "flatly changed" her testimony "by identifying a Senate staffer, who she finally said told her that she was told that if she came forward, [Thomas] would withdraw . . . ." Senator Specter went on to say that "the testimony of Professor Hill in the morning was flat out perjury and that she specifically changed it in the afternoon when confronted with the possibility of being contradicted."

Another issue arose with respect to Hill's treatment of the phone logs that Thomas's secretary had kept for him at the EEOC. Those logs showed that Hill had called Thomas about a dozen times since leaving the EEOC for a career as a law professor, including one time when Hill called Thomas's office to notify him that she was visiting D.C.; in that message, she had left her hotel room number and phone number with Thomas's secretary. Hill initially told the Washington Post that the phone logs were "garbage," and then implied in her opening statement to the Senate that the phone logs had mostly represented the times when Hill had called to speak to Diane Holt, Thomas's secretary.

Under questioning, however, Hill admitted that "I do not deny the accuracy of these messages." Moreover, Diane Holt testified that if Hill had ever called to speak with Holt, that call would not have been recorded in Thomas's phone logs. Holt further testified that the phone log represented only the occasions when Thomas had been unavailable to take the call. In fact, Hill had additionally called Thomas on several other occasions that were not recorded in the logs because Thomas took the call.

Hill also contradicted herself in attempting to explain the reasons for having called Thomas. At one point, she claimed that "the things that occurred after I left the EEOC occurred during a time -- any matter, calling him from the university, occurred during a time when he was no longer a threat to me of any kind. He could not threaten my job. I already had tenure there." But later in the same session, Senator Simpson asked her, "if what you say this man said to you occurred, why in God's name, when he left his position of power or status or authority over you, and you left it in 1983, why in God's name would you ever speak to a man like that the rest of your life?" Hill responded, "That's a very good question. And I'm sure that I cannot answer that to your satisfaction. That is one of the things that I have tried to do today. I have suggested that I was afraid of retaliation. I was afraid of damage to my professional life."

...Hill's supporters later insisted that relevant testimony from Angela Wright, a PR director for the EEOC and a witness to the alleged offensive conduct, was suppressed, even though the Democrats controlled the Senate. (Democrats were reluctant to call Angela Wright as a witness after Thomas testified that he had fired her for calling another employee a "faggot.")

[edit] Splitting out Anita Hill controversy

What do people think of creating a new page to discuss the Anita Hill controversy? Otherwise, I feel that this page may eventually be unfairly dominated by that aspect of Thomas's career. Remember 16:38, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that the existing section is too large at present. The incident has dominated Thomas' life story. However I think it could be expanded and an expanded section may be too large. The incident is coverred in more detail in Anita Hill, and it certainly dominates that article. In sum, I'd say that if folks want to add more info on the incident that an article devoted ot it would be the best place, but that we shouldn't reduce the coverage already in this article. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:34, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

To say that the incident has "dominated" Thomas' life story is clearly a vast overstatement. Thomas is a Supreme Court justice with a long law career. That's like saying the Monica Lewinski scandal, which is arguably much more prominent, has dominated Bill Clinton's life. I strongly support creating a new page to discuss the controversy, cutting down the section here and at Anita Hill and then linking the truncated section in both articles to to new page. It would give the page its proper due, without overemphasizing it here. Good idea, Remember. --Jdcaust 18:46, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

The Anita Hill incident dominates Thomas' life story because he has been the subject of so little other coverage. Prior to his nomination he was a virtual unknown, and he has been relatively quiet on and off the bench since his confirmation. Is there any profile of Thomas that doesn't mention it? I don't think the existing material is excessive, and if it were split out it would probably grow much larger. I think it's better to keep it short, like it is now, and in its existing place. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:19, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Upon review I think we can shorten the section by cutting down the long quote from Thomas. The famous "high tech lynching" line is the key part that we should quote, the rest can be summarized briefly. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:22, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

My argument should have been, what do people think of creating an article on the Anita Hill Controversy. It was a big event that still has large ramifications within the US and deserves its own article. Obviously there is not enough material right now to support the page, but I believe that we could put together a good article that could document the controversy. Remember 15:26, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

"Anita Hill Controversy" would be a POV title since the controversy involved both Hill and Thomas. I agree that the controvery did have large ramifications, and that is why I don't think the section in this article should be reduced further even if a separate article is created to address the controversy alone. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:43, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Do you have any suggestions for an alternative title, perhaps "Clarence Thomas-Anita Hill Controversy?" Remember 16:02, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Using "controversy" in the title is not ideal, since it prejudges the matter to some extent. Based on a more recent event, the Harriet Miers Supreme Court nomination, I'd say the most neutral title would be "Clarence Thomas Supreme Court nomination". That makes it clear it's not about Thomas, but about the nomination and all that it entailed. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:45, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Are there any good words that lack a negative connotations for something as combatative as a sexual harrassment accusation?--Mokru 21:00, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Long article compared to other SC justices

Why is this so huge compared to the other members of the Supreme Court? It would seem to a naive outsider (like me) that the youngest member of the court would have the least history. There is an extensive section on Justice Thomas' judicial philosophy whereas other justices have a few paragraphs or sentences. --ElKevbo 04:22, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No other Supreme Court judge had the controversy surrounding his appointment and subsequent tenure on the bench. Rhenquist's entry is almost as long, and that mostly due to the wealth of personal info in his history. --John, aka Daemon

Re Daemon, I don't think this is particularly true. Whether you agree with him on politics or not, Mark Levein's Men in Black illustrates many Supreme Court Justices who had controversial behavior. Many cases have been rejected on the grounds that 8 Justices felt that a 9th judge was out of his mind. I think the only thing remarkable about Thomas' hearing and appointment would be the publicity of the controversy. --Mokru 21:32, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Re Daemon, Hey, the longer the better. This article isn't long, the other articles are short! However, this does bring up the good point that as the article grows in length, it could be usefull to summarize it in the opening paragraph for readers who just want a quick peek at the salient details. Dxco 17:22, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Judicial philosophy

I added a three point summary of Thomas' judicial philospohy; while the source is indeed a blog, I think it's a fairly accurate, concise summary of Thomas' views. Please discuss here before removing again. Simon Dodd 02:17, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Keetoowah, in removing these points again, writes: "comments are the comments of one obscure person and most importantly then are NOT accurate". I agree that the writer is obscure; I do not agree that the bullet points are inaccurate. Please explain why you feel they are not accurate. Simon Dodd 01:16, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Dear Simon Dodd: Wikipedia is NOT a soapbox and Wikipedia is NOT a place for original research. Until you find a source that sums up Thomas legal work in that manner then it is coming out of the article. Also, Thomas's legal work is not that easily summed up. You don't have any information listed about yourself on Wikipedia, so I do not know if you have any legal training or experience, but it doesn't matter because, once again, Wikipedia is NOT a place for orginal research. Also I'm going to remove it and I will continue to remove it until you come up with a recognized name that stated the incorrect hogwash.-----Keetoowah 22:26, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

I disagree that it's hogwash, and it isn't original research, because I didn't write it. Nor is it s soap box, because the description is neutral - it neither endorses nor repudiates, only observes. What exactly do you feel is incorrect in the list? In what ways is it inconsistent with what the rest of the article says? Simon Dodd 19:00, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Richardcavell 04:00, 6 September 2005 (UTC) - I don't like the recent edit describing the political spectrum as inappropriate for describing judges. In the US, the judges are appointed in a partisan way, so they're stuck with it. And Clarence Thomas is undoubtedly a conservative.

[edit] Libertarianism section

Part of it borders on original research and part of it is just poorly sourced. Let's look at it:

In an interview published in Reason magazine, conducted when he was head of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, Thomas expressed his sympathy with libertarianism.^[1]

What he actually said in the interview:

Reason: So would you describe yourself as a libertarian?

Thomas: I don't think I can. I certainly have some very strong libertarian leanings, yes. I tend to really be partial to Ayn Rand, and to The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged. But at this point I'm caught in the position where if I were a true libertarian I wouldn't be here in government.

This does not justify a separate section called Libertarianism.

In particular, Thomas's philosophy is profoundly influenced by African-American libertarian economist Thomas Sowell^[2] and Objectivist Ayn Rand^[3].

According to FindLaw columnist Edward Lazarus: "It is said that Thomas's favorite movie is "The Fountainhead" - a film based on the Ayn Rand novel.... Indeed, Thomas's allegiance to this story is so strong that, each year, he requires his new law clerks to attend a screening that he hosts."^[4]

This is relevant and has been moved up to the personal life section with a proper reference.

On the bench, although Thomas is usually conservative, he occasionally displays a libertarian streak, especially on his vociferous dissent in cases such as Gonzales v. Raich and Kelo v. City of New London.^[5]

The Volokh Conspiracy is simply not a credible reference for an encyclopedia article about a living Supreme Court Justice. The burden of evidence is not on editors who remove questionable content. It's on editors who put it back in. So please find a more reliable source. We can say that Thomas admits to having some "libertarian leanings" because that's a direct quote from the Reason article, and I have no problem adding that in the appropriate location with the appropriate reference (which I will do). MoodyGroove 18:16, 7 May 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove

[edit] Thomas is NOT an Objectivist

I have removed Clarence Thomas from the Objectivist category. Firstly, being influenced by Ayn Rand does not make one an Objectivist. Secondly, His opposition to abortion removes him ipso facto from the category, as upholding the right to abortion is an integral part of the philosophy. Even more importantly, one cannot be both an Objectivist and a Catholic (as Thomas is) since an integral component of Objectivism is atheism. To draw an analogy, one would not call Gandhi Christian pacificist, even though he was strongly influenced by Tolstoy. LaszloWalrus 19:40, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

If "upholding the right to abortion is an integral part of [objectivism]" as you contend, might I suggest that, before worrying about whether or not Justice Thomas is an objectivist, you start by editing Objectivist philosophy? You clearly seem to have a crucial insight into objectivism that is not currently included in its wikipedia entry: I would have thought that, were "upholding the right to abortion . . . an integral part of [that] philosophy," Objectivist philosophy would have something to say about this supposedly integral point, yet it fails to mention abortion - this supposedly "integral part" of it - even once. Moreover, you contend that atheism is a defining characteristic of objectivism, while its wikpedia entry again mentions atheism once, and then only to say that different adherent to the philosophy disagree about it.

I have no idea what objectivism is, nor what the objectivists say about abortion, but your contention is not only supported by external evidence, it is flatly unsupported by the text of a coequal article at Wikipedia. Thus, might I suggest that you go ahead and start editing Objectivist philosophy and come back when your claims have been accepted into that article for a period of time? That way, you will be able to credibly make the case that Justice Thomas does not belong in this category because he holds views incompatible with those discussed in the Objectivist philosophy article. In the meantime, your edit is

Reversed Simon Dodd 21:18, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

May I suggest that we should not decide this on our own? Does Thomas call hismelf an objectivist? Have other notable people done so? We should rely on sources, not our own judgement. -Will Beback 22:49, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Will - I have no idea if he is or not. I'm not arguing that Thomas is an objectivist, I'm saying that what User:LaszloWalrus is doing qualifies as wikipedia:vandalism. At some point, an editor decided that Thomas was an objectivist and added him to that category; User:LaszloWalrus is free to disagree, but thusfar, has not only failed to provide any support for his removal of Justice Thomas from this category, but what comments he has offered in support are flatly contradicted by Wikipedia's entries for the very philosophy involved. How can one take seriously the contention that atheism and support for abortion rights are core to an ideology, when that ideology's wikipedia entry says nothing about them? If the entry for Objectivism is wrong - that is, missing discussion of these allegedly key opinions - User:LaszloWalrus should start by fixing objectivism, not by making unsupported edits to Clarence Thomas.

Again, I'm not saying that Thomas should be in this category - in fact, personally, nothing would please me more than for Thomas to be removed from a category which even vaguely or tangentially associates him with Ayn Rand, as I think it would be hugely disappointing if he had some interest in Rand (it would be like discovering that Antonin Scalia is secretly a fan of NSync: the sort of egregious lapse of judgement that really makes you question your opinion of a person). I would be delighted for an editor to appropriately dismiss this category. But I do think that before removing the category, the editor doing so should provide sources or at least engage on the talk page, as User:LaszloWalrus has thusfar failed to do. Simon Dodd 13:04, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

This is strangely convoluted reasoning. If an editor added Thomas to a category without citations, it was a POV edit, and any good Wikipedian should remove it until citations are supplied. The first edit was POV, and you are accusing the removing editor of being POV. Strange! It is the first editor's job to provide the appropriate citations. I'm removing the category on that basis. Pollinator 14:01, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

As per notes above, I have no objection to the category being removed, and I have no intention of picking a fight with an admin over it. ;)

Incidentally, your user page refers to a story wherein monks argue over how many teeth are in a horse's mouth, citing various stories, until one monk asks why they don't just count the number of teeth in the horses's mouth. Nice story - but applied to WP, wouldn't that constitute Wikipedia:original research? Simon Dodd 14:31, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Objectivism was the system of philosophy developed by Ayn Rand. Here is an excerpt from a lecture entitled "The Philosophy of Objectivism" (sanctioned by Rand): "God... is a systematic contradiction of every valid... principle. No argument will get you to a world contradicting this one. No method will enable you to leap from existence to a "super-existence." Similarly, here's Rand (writin in The Objectivist Newsletter) on conservatives vs. Objectivists: "Objectivists are NOT conservatives." Here's Rand on abortion: "Abortion is a moral right — which should be left to the sole discretion of the woman involved; morally, nothing other than her wish in the matter is to be considered." Thomas is not an atheist (he's Catholic); he is a conservative (in contrast to Objectivists); he does not support abortion. Which sources say Thomas IS an Objectivist? LaszloWalrus 23:49, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Hearsay, boring and moot. Simon Dodd 02:01, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

What is "hearsay, boring and moot"? LaszloWalrus 05:35, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Be careful when you say Thomas opposes abortion. There is no evidence that he personally opposes the practice of abortion. He just thinks the Constitution does not give a right to abortion. I can say I support Universal Health Care, but I can also say the Constitution does not grant Universal Health Care. Support and think the Constitution protects are two different matter. Wooyi^{Talk to me?} 21:17, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Philosophy vs. Ideology

A recent edit has changed - Thomas stated on one occasion that for a period of time he was influenced by Objectivism, the philosophy of Ayn Rand. to - Thomas stated on one occasion that for a period of time he was influenced by Objectivism, the ideology of Ayn Rand. I reverted the edit as POV. Ideology is related to Ideolouge which is defined as: 1 : an impractical idealist : THEORIST 2 : an often blindly partisan advocate or adherent of a particular ideology Philosophy has no such baggage and is a much more neutral and non-POV word. This article on Thomas is not the correct place to argue whether or not Ayn Rand was a philosopher. Changing philosopy to ideology is almost implying that Thomas is an ideolouge and inserts POV words into an article that to this point has been quite successful in providing neutral and balanced information. --Paul 00:08, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Ideology: A set of doctrines or beliefs that form the basis of a political, economic, or other system.[3]

The word "philosophy" is not neutral, as only Rand's followers assert that she is a philosopher. The vast majority of academia rejects her as a philosopher to the point that they rarely ever even mention her. "Ideology" does not assert anything other than the fact that he believes in a set of beliefs. You are making an assesment of the word's worth based on a related word, not on the word itself. -- LGagnon 00:25, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Paul that "philosophy" is more appropriate than "ideology." I know very little about objectivism, but the following points seem pretty clear.

• Objectivism is a philosophy because it constitutes "a search for a general understanding of values and reality by chiefly speculative rather than observational means" and "an analysis of the grounds of and concepts expressing fundamental beliefs" (quoting Merriam-Webster-online's definition #2 of philosophy). For what it's worth, Encyclopedia Britannica agrees with me, describing Ayn Rand thus: "Russian-born American writer who, in commercially successful novels, presented her philosophy of objectivism, essentially reversing the traditional Judeo-Christian ethic" (my emphasis). Even Wikipedia agrees: "Objectivism is a philosophy developed by Ayn Rand that encompasses positions on metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, politics, and aesthetics."

The above definition should not be considered normative, many philosophers would disagree with it. 58.105.111.91 10:29, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Of course professional philosophers don't agree with that definition. Pro philosophers have a far narrower definition of "philosophy" than the use of the term in everyday use, e.g. "What is your philosophy of life?" "Philosophy" in ordinary usage is basically interchangeable with "outlook," which is why it is NPOV. It is in this ordinary sense, not in the pro philosopher's sense, that we are using the term in this article. (In the interest of full disclosure, I am the same as 152.3.180.23.) Pan Dan 01:04, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

• The fact that "the vast majority of academia rejects [Rand] as a philosopher," as LGagnon says, just means that she has had little influence on philosophers in academia. This means at most that she is a bad philosopher. It doesn't mean she isn't a philosopher.
• Calling a system of beliefs an "ideology" connotes that there is not a lot of profound or abstract thought behind that system of beliefs. It is clear that objectivism is deeper than mere "visionary theorizing" and it encompasses more than just "human life or culture" (quoting Merriam-Webster's definitions of ideology).152.3.180.23 00:00, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I hold that "ideology" is better than "philosophy" for wikipedia because:

1- The use of the word "ideology is indisputably correct in meaning, even if the word does carry certain cultural connotations because the objective meaning of the word is NPOV.

2- In contrast it is disputable whether objectivism is a philosophy. Personally I very strongly believe that it is a philosophy, even if an exceptionally poorly argued one. However some feel that objectivism is instead pseudophilosophy.

Hence we have a choice between ( possible) subtle POV connotations and POV infested meaning, the choice is clear.

The debate is rather silly however. Who really thinks that it will make a difference which word we use? Here's a solution, let's pick a different word of phrase altogether, I nominate "belief system" as in "The belief system of objectivism."

58.105.111.91 10:41, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

"Philosophy" has two distinct relevant senses here. What is disputed is whether objectivism is a philosophy in the same sense that, say, Kant's output constitutes a philosophy, i.e. the academic sense. What should not be disputed is that objectivism is a philosophy in the ordinary sense of "philosophy" as basically synonomous with "outlook." That's the sense we mean in using "philosophy" in the Objectivism article, and in this article. There is no POV-infested meaning in this second sense of "philosophy," and so this term should be non-controversial. However, there is no question that "ideology" has a connotation that would not be accepted by proponents of objectivism. So "philosophy" is appropriate, and as I point out in my prior post, Britannica agrees with this conclusion. Pan Dan 01:14, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

This doesn't really seem like the place for this discussion, but the Encyclopedia Britannica and the American Heritage Dictionary both refer to Rand as a philosopher, not as an ideologue. LaszloWalrus 23:41, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Affirmitave action

shouldn't there be a section on affirmitave action in the judicial philosophy section? He is after all the only African American on the supreme court and there have been some rather important Affirmitave action cases lately. Cryo921 12:32, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Granted --Mokru 22:47, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Career

[edit] Appointment

I've deleted the following two sentences from this section:

"Under questioning by several Senators during confirmation hearings, Thomas repeatedly asserted that he had not developed a stance on the Roe v. Wade decision, which prevented states from criminalizing abortions. Eight months after his confirmation, in Planned Parenthood v. Casey, he filed a joint dissent finding that "Roe was wrongly decided, and that it can and should be overruled."

While I do not challenge these facts, their inclusion and presentation here are clearly anti-Thomas. Showing Justice Thomas's actions after confirmation that differed from comments he made during the hearings have the result of making him look intentionally dishonest. This type of statement should *not* be placed in the "Appointment" section, but would be better placed in a section regarding the Justice's decisions on cases or perhaps in a "Criticisms" section. (As an analogy, consider the fairness of this statement in the "Political Campaigns" section of the Bill Clinton Wikipedia article: "As in Clinton's first campaign, the Republicans as well as some members of the media insinuated a history of marital infidelity on his part, all of which the Clinton camp categorically denied. Twenty months after his inauguration, his marital infidelity would be exposed.") Weekeek 08:43, 1 Oct 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Dxco below. The Clinton comparison you brought up is not much of an analogy in my opinion. "His marital infidelity would be exposed" is obviously anti-Clinton POV. If you replaced the second sentence with something referring to the Lewinsky allegations surfacing (in a NPOV way), I would think that it would be acceptable.

Since Thomas's assertion that he had no opinion on the matter was so controversial at the time, it should definitely be mentioned how he finally decided the issue. Pasboudin 11:49, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Thomas apologists say his testimony was that he "never debated Roe". It's a subtle difference. Quite clever actually, I'm very opposed to Roe and I could say this too. It takes on a different meaning than those hearing it think it has. Is this dishonest? Depends. --Mokru 22:08, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I've just read this article for the first time, and found the current state (as of my timestamp) of the Appointment section to be quite reasonable. Considering how inflamatory the whole deal became (Mr. Thomas' quote near the end of the section perhaps as an example of this), this section now seems to be fairly moderate and mild in tone. As a small note, would it be possible to get a source for "(Democrats were reluctant to call Angela Wright as a witness after Thomas testified that he had fired her for calling another employee a 'faggot.')"? Dxco 17:17, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

I have removed the following language

Under questioning by several Senators during confirmation hearings, Thomas repeatedly asserted that he had not developed a stance on the Roe v. Wade decision, which prevented states from criminalizing abortions. The court would rule on an important abortion case eight months after his confirmation, in Planned Parenthood v. Casey. Thomas filed a joint dissent finding that "Roe was wrongly decided, and that it can and should be overruled."

This does not belong here because 1) it has nothing to do with his appointment, and 2) the sole reason for inclusion of this language is to make it appear that Thomas is dishonest. The last time this language was removed, a section was added later in the article detailing the Planned Parenthood v. Casey case and quoting Thomas's reasoning in the decision. That discussion is in the appropriate place and doesn't make any veiled attacks on the Justice's honesty.--Paul 07:48, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I moved it out of the Appointment section per your objections. The abortion question was a vital enough part of his hearings that the way he ultimately addressed the issue after appointment is important to mention, at the very least in passing as is done here. Pasboudin 01:24, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Moving it from the Appointment Section is an improvement, as was adding the "wrongly decided" language.

However this sentence:

Many leading organizations had opposed his nomination due to his suspected anti-abortion stance, though Thomas had repeatedly asserted that he had not developed a stance on the Roe decision during confirmation hearings.

...does not add any facts, and betrays a point of view. First, it characterizes Thomas's opposition as "leading organizations", but the big problem is that it implies Thomas is a hypocrite or liar. This is the same problem that User:Weekeek (see above) pointed out saying it made him appear "intentionally dishonest." We cannot say or imply that Thomas is being disingenous here, because we cannot know if he had an overriding opinion on Roe v. Wade at the time of his hearing. The offending sentence is an accusation that we cannot make based on the facts.

As the article stands now, it mentions that Thomas was opposed by pro-choice groups because they thought he would not support Roe v. Wade, and the article also spells out exactly where Thomas came down on the issue when he had a chance to vote on an abortion case. If the reader wishes to draw their own conclusion, they can do so, but it not appropriate for an encyclopedia article to make such an accusation. --Paul 23:13, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's quite an "accusation" since he did say that he hadn't formulated an opinion, so he was free to go either way when an abortion case came up. But since there is obviously some disagreement here I will reinsert his stated position during the confirmation hearings in the "Appointment" section. This way there is no juxtaposition of the two sentences which you find questionable when placed together. Hopefully this will be acceptable. Pasboudin 02:22, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I've deleted the phrase "liberal" 3x times in this paragraph. The labeling of the organizations involved in Thomas' Appointment process is irrelevant. Furthermore, the description of "bork" as a legitimate political tactic only used by "liberals" is clearly another example of overt bias. Hence, removal. 75.73.33.16 (talk) 10:27, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree. These definitely qualify as weasel words. However, new comments go to the bottom. As such, I've moved them there. --Jdcaust (talk) 18:59, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Early career

"At first, the nomination appeared to be stuck in the Senate Judiciary Committee, until a copy of a "documents request" from the committee (which at the time was controlled by the Democrats and chaired by Senator Joe Biden) was leaked to the Wall Street Journal. The Wall Street Journal reprinted the documents request, taking up one-quarter of the op-ed page. In the ensuing negative publicity surrounding the documents request, Thomas's nomination was discharged from the committee."

I don't really understand this. Perhaps the auther could expand this a tad so it is clear what the significance was of the "request," what was contained in the "request," and so explain why the publishing of the contents spurred the nomination along. Im pretty sure the author intended there to be a cause and effect described here, but I think at present it isn't clear just how it works. 67.168.99.182 17:08, 5 October 2005 (UTC) (woops, changed browser: Dxco 17:10, 5 October 2005 (UTC) )

"... taking up one-quarter of the op-ed page."

This comment as well seem to be trying to indicate something, but I am not clear what. Is the exact size of the article that was printed a key element in Thomas' nomination process?67.168.99.182 17:08, 5 October 2005 (UTC) (woops, changed browser: Dxco 17:10, 5 October 2005 (UTC) )

Here is the original edit from 07:48, 2 May 2005 by 66.147.187.136

"In 1990, President George Bush, Sr. nominated Thomas to the DC Circuit Federal Appeals Court. At first, the nomination appeared to be stuck in the Senate Judiciary Committee, until a copy of a "documents request" from the committee (which at the time was controlled by the Democrats and Chaired by Senator Joe Biden) was leaked to the Wall Street Journal. The Wall Street Journal reprinted the documents request on their op-ed page (even with a very small font, it took up one-quarter of a broadsheet page). The nature of the documents request was so broad and overreaching that it looked like the committee was attempting to request virtually all documents that Thomas had authored while a Federal public servant. In the ensuing negative publicity surrounding the documents request, Thomas's nomination was discharged from the committee. Thomas was confirmed by the senate in March 1990."

This fact can be confirmed either by a visit to the Wall Street Journal's website (regrettfully www.wsj.com is a $$$ subscription website) or a visit to a larger 'bricks & mortar' library.

72.82.175.2 04:55, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

What fact are you referring to? The above captioned paragraph is a synthesis of several facts. 1.) There was a document request by the Senate Judiciary Committee. 2.) The document request was leaked to the WSJ. 3.) It was over-reaching, as evidenced by its size and scope. 4.) It caused negative publicity to the Senate Judiciary Committee. 5.) The exposure of the request led to the discharge of the nomination from the committee. 6.) Thomas was confirmed in March 1990. I find it difficult to believe something this notable would require a visit to a 'bricks & mortar' library. Best, MoodyGroove 12:00, 26 May 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove

MoodyGroove,

I am specifically referring to the Documents Request (DR) aspect of the passage. Let us go over points 1 through 5 individually (point 6 is already well established through multiple internet citations).

Points 1, 2 & 3 are confirmable by the WSJ article.

Point 4 would be a reasonable consequence of the public disclosure of points 1 & 3 (there are most likely other contemporaneous news stories to this effect). Indeed the negative publicity raised suspicions that Thomas had leaked the DR to the WSJ, so much so that the WSJ (shortly after publishing the DR) ran a disclaimer that said that the DR was NOT leaked to them by Thomas.

Point 5 would also be a reasonable consequence of the public disclosure of points 1, 3 & 4 (again, there are most likely other contemporaneous news stories to this effect).

Regarding your comment, "I find it difficult to believe something this notable would require a visit to a 'bricks & mortar' library.". You might want to go to a 'bricks & mortar' library someday. You would be amazed at the stuff that got reported in local newspapers from about a decade ago and earlier that is not available on the internet.

(Strictly as an aside, you might even find a story about a local politician making a politically damaging statement from years ago. A story that everybody forgot about. A story that sat on a piece of microfilm in a library for about dozen years. Until you went there, photocopied it, scanned it, and uploaded it to his Wikipedia article.)

72.82.175.2 01:18, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

That's quite an appalling thought. MoodyGroove 02:16, 29 May 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove

[edit] Early Career Clarification

"From 1974-1977 Thomas was Assistant Attorney General of Missouri under then State Attorney General John Danforth. When Danforth was elected to the U.S. Senate in 1976 Thomas left to become an attorney with Monsanto in St. Louis, Missouri."

I doubt he was working as an attorney for Monsanto at the same time as being Assistant Attorney General of Missouri -- at least that is how it reads to me. Can someone clarify? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mokru (talk • contribs) 22:38, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unexpected Rulings

This section seems problematic for several reasons: A)It is very unencyclopedia-like to list some 'unexpected' decisions. B)It also seems POV to make a determination that Thomas should have voted one way, but because he didn't in a case, that decision is 'unexpected'. -- Ozoneliar 23 October 2006

Isn't it generally accepted by most major media that he represents the "very conservative" side of the Court? Badagnani 04:43, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

The fact that major media has labeled a Justice Conservative/Liberal is meaningless. Further when looking at the other justices, I haven't seen a similiar section. We should let his decisions speak for themselves. -- Ozoneliar 23 October 2006

I agree. Constitutional law isn't a political philosophy. The article doesn't explain why Thomas's judicial philosophy would indicate he'd come out some other way. Perhaps the cases are simply "notable" in some other way, but it does seem to be a problematic category. Zz414 17:16, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps this section should be deleted? I say it should any input? -- Ozoneliar 23 October 2006

No, it's very helpful to readers. We can't ignore the fact that certain justices have strongly held beliefs, either left or right, and Thomas is generally regarded to be "very conservative" in his rulings. One might use the term "atypical" rather than "unexpected" rulings, or simply discuss the rulings in different terms without using the word "unexpected." One would think that even the president who originally nominated Thomas for the Court would be surprised at some of the rulings discussed here. We don't want a whitewash, which is what the posting above seems to advocate. Badagnani 03:43, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Even if one is to accept the that this section should exist(which I'm not ready to do yet) Several things are still wrong with it. A)This section seems to be independent research, and high conclusory B)It does not cite to any source, especially a non-biased research source.C)The section does not explain in every ruling why it is unexpected. D)Thomas seems to be the only justice with a section like this. E)Like ZZ414 said Con Law isn't political philosophy. We should not lump justices of the Supreme Court in with political ideologies, and then say since the Justice is either a so called liberal Justice, or a so-called Conservative Justice this ruling is unexpected. Further, I question the use of the terms Liberal and Conservative in reference to Justices on the Supreme Court altogether.

  For the Foregoing reasons I continue to recommend the deletion/ammending of this section. -- Ozoneliar  24 October 2006

I'm also going to throw in a vote for deletion. While I find it a bit interesting, the whole idea erroneously conflates political philosophy and judicial philosophy. The only way these rulings are "unexpected" is by applying political definitions to constitutional jurisprudence. Viewed solely from a conservative judicial philosophy, they make a lot of sense. I don't agree with Ozoneliar's assertion that it's independent research. But that said, I just don't think the section's terribly encyclopedia-like. Something like this would never be in Brittanica. --Velvet elvis81 06:02, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External links to cases

There are a a few cases here only linked to externally - we should work on getting articles written on them so we can turn those into internal links. The cases are: McIntyre v. Ohio Elections Commission, United States v. Hubbell, United States v. Bajakajian, Indianapolis v. Edmond.  BD2412 ^talk 19:31, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Thomas's voting record/reversing congressional decisions

Thomas's voting record is extremely relevant, especially as "judicial activism" (or, "legislating from the bench") is at the center of debate regarding SCOTUS justices and nominees. User: Keetowah has chosen to continually obscure, downplay, or altogether delete this important study. That's rather ironic, because a quick check of the Robert Byrd page shows that, in certain cases, there's nothing about a person's past actions that Keetowah deems unworthy of including in a Wikipedia entry.

Keetowah is free to construct a laudatory website to Clarence Thomas, whom he no doubt regards as the finest legal mind since Solon. But Wikipedia entries should be about the truth, not obfuscation or propaganda.

The Yale study should stay. --Eleemosynary 04:53, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Don't mischaracterize my position. I do not believe that the Yale study should be eliminated. I believe that it should streamlined. It is merely the study of one Yale professor. It does not deserve its own section. Also, the way that it is presented violates Wikipedian policy in that whoever put it up there in the first place stole wording directly from the study and that is a copyright issue. It needs to be slimmed down and re-written. Oh, I'm sorry that you don't want Robert Byrd's racist KKK past and present to be shown to the public. --- --Keetoowah 14:16, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, you've tipped your hand again. It's not the study "of one Yale professor." That's a mischaracterization. Nothing was "stolen" or is a copyright violation; the study is quoted and attributed. Perhaps slimming it down would help; but not with "weasel language," as has been done previously. Regarding your suggestion that I wish to obscure Byrd's "racist KKK past and present," that's just more hyperbole and personal attacks by you. Did Arbitration teach you nothing? Eleemosynary 17:40, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I did not personal attack you. You would like that so you could justify your constantly following me around Wikipedia like a stalker. --Keetoowah 17:44, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Another personal attack from Keetowah. Duly noted. Eleemosynary 18:56, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't think these personal back and forths are appropriate. As we all are political, it adds nothing to introduce personal attacks --Mokru 22:15, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, the information belongs on the page, and prominently - it is a useful statistic (about all Supreme Court justices, in fact). I'm not sure this article needs the information about ALL the justices, however - Thomas' score, and where that places him relative to other cour members, would be sufficient. My only issue with it is presenting it as if it is the sole and only measure of judicial activism, whatever that means. I say the latter because I suspect that defining 'judicial activism' solely as 'how often he votes to overturn laws' is a narrowly drawn and partisan definition. In a sense, it is being set up as a straw man to knock down. Of course, in real life, partisans of any political stripe define a "Judicial Activist" as someone who makes decisions contrary to their ideology ... —Morven 18:02, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Cogent and well-reasoned. I've removed the other justices' voting percentages. Eleemosynary 18:56, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I think that the other percentages should be put back in - there are only nine justices, it's not like it's a huge addition - and it puts the number in perspective. Let the reader draw his/her own conclusion about the meaning. --Kevin 03:40, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Regarding Eleemonsynary's latest edit... "He is considered to be part of the "conservative wing" in the current court." is okay but "liberal block" is "laughably POV". What am I missing here? --Paul 17:45, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

"Conservative wing" and "Liberal Wing" are somewhat NPOV. But "liberal block" or "conservative block" implies rigid, groupthinking cabals. Eleemosynary 19:39, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

The overwhelming majority of the material in this article discussing Thomas's judicial philosophy discusses parts of the constitution and specific cases, as well as discussion of some well-known constitutional principles such as "Substantive Due Process." This material is germane to a discussion of the judicial philosophy of Thomas.

However, the section on "Reversing Congressional Mandates" reflects a current political squabble. It is entirely a POV argument and does not belong in this article. User Morven even admits this when he says "I suspect that defining 'judicial activism' solely as 'how often he votes to overturn laws' is a narrowly drawn and partisan definition. In a sense, it is being set up as a straw man to knock down." He is entirely right.

Just to be complete, the current political squabble goes like this. Conservatives say that "liberal" Justices don't really care what the Constitution says, and they just make stuff up to agree with their policy preferences. Hence, the conservatives argue that such Justices practice 'judicial activism,' when what is needed is 'judicial modesty.' A judge, the argument goes should give deference to the actions of the legislative branch.

The liberals counter by arguing that the more conservative jurists are no more 'modest' than the liberals because they vote to overturn Congressional laws. Thus, they are just as 'activist' as the liberal jurists. The conservatives counter by arguing that respecting the letter of the Constitution and striking down Congressional power grabs, is essentially a negative activity and is what the Supreme Court is supposed to do. And the argument goes on and on.

This argument is non-judicial, and entirely political (it would never be cited as an argument in a SCOTUS decision), and it does not belong in an encyclopedia article on a Supreme Court Justice. --Paul 22:55, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ancestry

There really isn't enough discusion to merit this organization except that it is more logical to break out each ancestry as a part of the whole.

[edit] Gullah???

"Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas is a Gullah, and spoke primarily the Gullah dialect until the age of 16."

Is this for real? Or has he been Seigenthalered? --Peripatetic 16:22, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, he claims Gullah descent (did you read the linked article?) and that he grew up speaking the Geechee dialect, and also that he plans to write a book about this. Like many people with Native American descent who hid this for many years, things are changing and now it's more fashionable/acceptable to admit one's heritage. Badagnani 20:43, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

The original quote was in Thomas's own words, in the December 14, 2000 The New York Times (registration required to read, or you can find the article via Lexis-Nexis). Badagnani 21:06, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Gullah Heritage in Autobiography?

Does his new autobiography get into his Gullah heritage? Badagnani 00:00, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Playboy Origins of High Tech Lynching

The expression "high-tech lynching" coincidentally or ironically first appeared in Asa Barber's 'Men's' column published in Playboy magazine in an issue released before Thomas' Supreme Court hearings.

...was added (with some POV I have not reproduced), and then removed. I can't find any evidence of this on the Internet (0 hits for "high-tech lynching" "asa barber"), but it would be interesting if it were true. jdb ❋ (talk) 05:08, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Limbaugh wedding

It is certainly worthy of inclusion that Thomas performed Rush Limbaugh's third marriage at his Virginia home, and it was not included as an attempt to imply POV "politics by association." A Supreme Court justice performing the marriage of the most-listened-to political radio host in America is certainly worth mentioning. Eleemosynary 03:19, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

It certainly is not worthy of inclusion that Thomas performed Rush Limbaugh's third marriage at his Virginia home. If it was not included as a POV attempt to imply "politics by association," then why do you say "A Supreme Court justice performing the marriage of the most-listened-to political radio host in America is certainly worth mentioning"? Do you mean if he wasn't the "most-listened-to political radio host in America" it wouldn't be noteworthy? So the noteworthiness is because of Limbaugh's political-radio-host fame? Tell me again with a straigt face that you aren't including this to make a political implication. I have once again removed this POV-pushing. Also, you (perhaps inadvertantly) reverted my "leak" change at the same time. I have also restored that change, adding a cite. --Paul 21:47, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't appreciate your combative tone, nor your refusal to assume good faith. It is indeed worthy of inclusion that Thomas performed Limbaugh's wedding. I think you're projecting a little. Do you think there's some political significance of Thomas performing Limbaugh's wedding that you would like to strike from the article? I do not. Your "challenge" to me is silly. I'm putting my edit back. Please do not remove it until consensus has been reached. And thank you for adding a cite. Eleemosynary 02:37, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

By the way, check the David Souter page "Personal Life" section. If that information is worthy of inclusion (as I think it is), the Limbaugh wedding info certainly should be here. Eleemosynary 02:57, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

agree. It belongs in the article. It's a verifiable fact, it's inclusion does nothing to detract from the article, and it does not push any POV. Just because Thomas presided over Limbaugh's wedding does not mean there are other implications to this. It just means he presided. Many justices/judges do that for friends. And its not like its a big secret that Thomas is a strict originalist/member of the conservative justice bloc ⇒ SWATJester ^Ready Aim _Fire! 03:19, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't see what the problem with including this information is. Badagnani 04:41, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Elee asked me to take a look here and give my $.02. In my opinion, that Thomas performed the wedding, and especially at his house, should be included as a noteworthy bit of trivia. The reason, in my opinion, has nothing to do with politics but rather celebrity. Limbaugh is a celebrity. If any Justice performs a celebrity's wedding ceremony, especially at the Justice's personal residence, I think its noteworthy. Say Souter performs Kirsten Dunst's wedding. Her politics are irrevelant but I think mention of Souter performing her wedding ceremony should be in both their entries. If the ceremony was at Souter's house it is even more interesting/noteworthy as it implies that he might be closer to this famous person than people would otherwise assume. Lawyer2b 04:54, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Swat, Elee, Lawyer, and Bada (apologies to anyone whom I've missed), inasmuch as I think the factoid to be a notable piece of trivia, and I, in assuming good faith, impute no malign, POV-infused bias to its having been included. Joe 04:10, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

One of the maxims here is that as long as a fact is sourced and verifiable, it will end up in an article regardless how minor. So the trivia will stay if people want it. Relevancy would be better served if someone found out how often he conducts marriage ceremonies and to whom. Also, does it belong in the "Life" section? It is more trivia than a discussion of his life. The section's bigger issue is Why isn't there more information about Thomas's personal life and relationships? This is an article about him, and his two marriages rate about as much discussion as the Limbaugh wedding trivia. NoSeptember ^talk 08:51, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree, though I will point out that "factoid" refers a made-up fact, and I don't think anyone is claiming that in this case. I also agree that this is a biography, and we should try to cover biographical info like marriages, children, hobbies, etc that are beyond the mere CV entries yet are sufficiently well-reported to be verifiable and beyond gossip. As editors we need to balance the coverage of different elements of the subject's life. As to the immediate point, Limbaugh is more than a celebrity, he is a highly partisan political commentator, a fact which lends additional relevance. -Will Beback 09:13, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

This is one of the main problems of wiki. What is relevant for a biography? It seems simple enough to any encyclopedia user to say that Thomas is or is not a republican. That combined with his judicial philosophy covers the spectrum. Any wedding then, doesn't really add much to the article. Depending on emphasis. If it is overemphasized, it detracts from the article quality. If it is removed, it potentially deminishes the article quality. If it's in a trivia section, give it all the emphasis you'd like. If it's in any other section, the emphasis should be relatively minor. I don't think anyone would dispute that the Supreme Court often follows ideological party lines.--Mokru 21:57, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Allegations in The Nine

A new book, The Nine, comes out with allegations regarding Thomas's penchant for porn. As Above the Law states [4]: "The decision to rush the swearing-in of Justice Clarence Thomas spared the controversial nominee the publication of more embarrassing personal revelations than Anita Hill's notorious testimony. That same day, three Washington Post reporters were set to write a story about Thomas' extensive taste for pornography, including accounts from eyewitnesses such as the manager of his local video store. "But since Thomas had been sworn in, the Post decided not to pursue the issue and dropped the story." I don't know whether we should include this or not since it is only allegations about a story that was never published, but I thought I should bring the issue up on the talk page because I anticipate it become a future point of discussion. Remember 17:11, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with some good porno, as long as it doesn't distract from his legal reasoning. ~ Rollo44 01:36, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

That's tricky. The book is a reliable source, but it isn't making the assertion about Thomas and porn, it's simply reporting that the WaPo was going to report on that. In that circumstance it appears more like gossip than simple reporting. However other material from the book may be more appropriate. Here's the original ABC report that the Above the Law blog cites: [5]. For example, the details that he adoped a grandnephew and that he's received large book advances are noteworthy. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:29, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re-considering 1st paragraph edit?

I don't understand the reasons for Sjrplscjnky's recent edit of this article -- not that I'm sure that the data are necessarily "wrong." Rather, I'm persuaded that the strategy of introducing academic honors in the first paragraph is an unhelpful approach to this specific subject. I note that articles about other sitting Justices have been similarly "enhanced;" and I also believe those changes are no improvement.

In support of my view that this edit should be reverted, I would invite anyone to re-visit articles written about the following pairs of jurists.

• A1. Benjamin Cardozo
• A2. Learned Hand

• B1. John Marshall Harlan
• B2. John Marshall Harlan II

The question becomes: Would the current version of the Wikipedia article about any one of them -- or either pair -- be improved by academic credentials in the introductory paragraph? I think not.

Perhaps it helps to repeat a wry argument Kathleen Sullivan of Stanford Law makes when she suggests that some on the Harvard Law faculty wonder how Antonin Scalia avoided learning what others have managed to grasp about the processes of judging? I would hope this anecdote gently illustrates the point.

Less humorous, but an even stronger argument is the one Clarence Thomas makes when he mentions wanting to return his law degree to Yale.

At a minimum, I'm questioning this edit? It deserves to be reconsidered. --Ooperhoofd (talk) 01:00, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Footnotes

I've never really commented before, so sorry if I made a procedural error, but I wanted to point out that fn 25 is broken. The whole sentence it's in really needs better sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.233.180.240 (talk) 03:06, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Fn 22 is broken as well.

I added the broken sources template to the top of the references section, I looked it up and it said this was the proper thing to do.

Also FN 9 links to a title with no corresponding information contained within the site.

[edit] Unreferenced POV

I removed this.

Considering, however, that Jeffords later left the Republican Party in order to caucus with Democrats, and thus give the Democrats majority status in the Senate, and considering that Packwood had a very liberal voting record, essentially voting with the Democrats on all major issues, the negative vote was essentially along party lines.

I think the ideas expressed have some validity. And certainly Jeffords later leaving the party is a fact. But calling Packwood "liberal" is opinion unless you can cite some sources. The next leap from Packwood being liberal and Jeffords being independent meaning the vote "was essentially along party lines" goes a bit too far. Are all Republicans conservative and all Democrats liberal, so any liberal Republican is "essentially" a Democrat? If you can find a well-known pundit, historian, etc. who has made this point about the vote being essentially on party lines, we can use it. Otherwise it is original research simply opinion. Readin (talk) 23:29, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Overlinking

Do you think we could cram any more links to the article Roman Catholic Church in here? Sheesh. 14:50, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Missing Witnesses and bad title under the "Allegations of sexual harassment" section

1) Don't you need to have some mention of the women who came into refute the charges against Thomas. The section mentions Thomas defense of himelf and also his "high tech lynching" remark but a lot of things happened after his remarks. Remember all the women who came in and defended him? Women who worked for him? Surely you don't mean to pretend that it was simply Thomas's use of the race card that turned the tide for him? Those women witness were very persuasive and very powerful. I remember first seeing Hill's testimony and remarking to my wife that Thomas was done. But, after Thomas's spirited response and after the witnesses for Thomas were heard, Hill pulled her other witnesses and backed away from the whole thing. Even with all the pressure put on her by Nina Totenberg!

2) Sexual harrassment was not alleged as I remember -- this term crept in to use later after Anita Hill started making the speech circuit -- and as I remember -- after Bill Clinton had real sexual harrassment problems. The original term used by Hill and everyone else in testimony was "inappropriate behavior". Lkoler (talk) 03:28, 3 May 2008 (UTC)