Talk:Clarence Ray Allen

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Just a prediction - this man's death is not going to go unnoticed. I expect him to be in the news in the weeks ahead as liberals demand that Arnold grant him Clemency.

The term "liberal" is a crutch for people who need a simple world view, but so what, I'll bite. I'm against capital punishment on principal grounds, because I see it as a tool of revenge (which should be beneath civilised nations) rather than a tool of justice and/or peacekeeping, but I'll readily admit that if a person is able to commit capital crimes even from behing prison bars, then this is a reason to make an exception in order to protect society. This was credibly argued to be the case here. However, almost 25 years have passed between Clarence Ray Allen's conviction and his execution! Only now that he was severly crippled and suffered a heart attack, and arguably was hardly a threat anymore, did authorities execute him. I certainly find this rather illogical, what about you? Aragorn2 20:18, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

whoa Im a liberal and he should die

No one 'should die'. You're not a liberal, you're a fascist.

yeah, I'm one CA born-and-bred Liberal whose happy to see tax dollars used the right way. Funny thing about this Allen fella: he's Native American, disabled and on death row. That's a PC Tripple Crown. Shaaaaawing!

Sicko.

well if no one should, why we die someday? funny to see how people are pro-abortion and against death penalty, and vice-versa, and so on...

To answer your question: Because you are committing the is-ought fallacy. Furthermore, people are not "pro-abortion", they are against criminal prosecution of people who have aborted. Though I doubt you're interested in such "minor" details ... Aragorn2 20:18, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Summary Problems

Anyone else find the third paragraph in the summary is both a restatement of material below and doesn't really summarize the conflict over his execution? -- Kah13 23:03, 18 June 2006 (PST)

[edit] Did he murder Mary Sue Kitts himself?

At the time of the Fran’s Market murders, Allen already was serving a life sentence in Folsom Prison for orchestrating the 1974 murder of Mary Sue Kitts. He murdered her because she revealed a burglary he had committed to police.

Sorry for my english, but did he commit the murder of Mary Sue Kitts himself? The word "orchestrating" sounds for me like he did order the murder and didn't do it himself. --Jackobli 11:00, 14 January 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Terry Davis Quote

This is noise and should be removed. The Ward Campbell comment is germane as he was both involved in the prosecution and is the AG of California. The Terry Davis quote is what, some politician with a comment? Should we include Mike Farrell as well?

-- Kah13 10:29, 16 January 2006 (PST)

Well, the guy is secretary general of the Council of Europe, and so basically speaks in the name of the Council. I thought it could be relevant to emphasize European views about the case. What do you think ? -- Ze miguel 09:20, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Pulled it. It didn't fit anymore. Unless someone wants to include a section "people for/people against killing this guy", which would be a little silly for what is supposed to be a biographical article.

-- Kah13 07:02 17 January 2006 (PST)

[edit] Murder

The first sentence of the article has the word murder (or variations) eight times. Can someone clean it ? -- Ze miguel 11:51, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disgusting

Allen, who was legally blind, deaf, could not walk and suffered a near fatal heart attack in September only to be revived and returned to death row, was assisted into the death chamber by four correctional officers shortly after midnight.

That sickened me to the core, as an international observer, I am apalled that a so called 'first world country' carries out such animalism on it's prisoners. Gaol is worse than death in most instances, especially life (as in the real life, not just 25 years) in prison. However killing people is never justified. 211.30.80.121 12:42, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I completely disagree. The only disgusting part of this is that it took this long to put an end to his miserable life. If our system here in the U.S. was designed differently, this s.o.b. would have been executed back when he was still hale and healthy. The only injustice I see here is the fact that tax dollars kept this killer alive all these years, provided him a roof over his head and 3 square meals a day, not to mention medical care.
The U.S. needs to redesign their appeals process so that people like this slimebag don't get to live off of taxpayers for over 20 years before we are finally able to kill them.
No it doesn't.
Yes, it does, insofar as it can maintain the integrity of the post-conviction review process.
This article is about Clarence Ray, not your personal opinions on the U.S. Judicial system. (Notorious4life 22:56, 25 January 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Disabilities

There is not a single news source onlince that I am able to find that says Allen was not blind, deaf, or used a wheelchair (I even searched Free Republic). Please provide sources claiming that Allen's condition may be fake. -- Ze miguel 08:43, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

It was all contrary to the impression given by his backers for months that he was an old man so feeble he would be unable to see anything, and would probably have to be carried bodily to the gurney. Such robust ability in someone whose eyesight was compromised by diabetes and who suffered a full heart attack just four months ago may have surprised some in the witness room -- but not prison officials who had been keeping close tabs on Allen.

"No shock to those of us who knew him," said San Quentin spokesman Vernell Crittendon, who also witnessed the execution, and all 12 others that have come before Allen since the state resumed executing inmates in 1992 . "I've watched him walk and read his own mail for a long time now."

I came onto the talk page to complain about that very point, which I'm now going to WP:Be Bold and remove. Go look at the article on blindness, heart attacks and similar topics. You can read mail, and still be legally blind. Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 12:17, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References

Removed link to a Reuters article, as it was a dead link (page displayed, but no content...). --83.77.79.57 19:37, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 03:32, 10 November 2007 (UTC)