Talk:Clan Ross

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Okay, here's my first draft of a sample page. I haven't uploaded any images yet, but I wanted to mark their places for you to consider. The external link is merely the first one I came upon that looked likely. Except for the sept names (think of a sept as a family with a different surname, like a sub-clan, and some have their own tartans, and I marked the one on this list that does), I took the info only from my book; the sept names I copied from the external link, which had more sept names than my book, so I have to revise the maximum number of surnames upward -- it's more than 2 dozen.

This is because of the geographical/alliance nature of clans. Clan Chattan takes this to the extreme. It is composed of many clans and septs but has no clan chief. Instead there is a ruling council. -- Derek Ross

I don't know how the rest of you want to handle it: Do you want to all fiddle around with this one sample, or do separate ones for different suggestions, or do minor changes to this one and major changes on a new one, or what?

Let's work with this one. We can use the History if we want to base a new design on an earlier suggestion -- Derek Ross

Can one of you please do something about making a place for a sound clip? because I don't yet now how to handle anything but wav files, and I don't have time to learn before December. To give us something to work with, I've uploaded the file Simpipe.wav, which is "Simple Gifts" played on the bagpipes. -- isis 13:42 Oct 28, 2002 (UTC)

P.S. -- I left out the location/map of the clan because it's not in my book, but it IS on the page at the external link. -- isis 14:00 Oct 28, 2002 (UTC)

I've added sample images: the tartan at 250x250 and the crest and plant badges at 125x125. I don't have a war cry for this clan, but if I had one, I'd put it above 'Pipe music' in the same format. I've rearranged the motto and plant badge from my original draft to make room for the images in a line across the page (and I'm thinking the location/map might go there, to the right), and I've added the sound link. -- isis 15:13 Oct 28, 2002 (UTC)

Please use OGG format. WAV is huge. Wikipedia:Image use policy. -- Tarquin

I don't have hardware or software to do OGG, that's why I need for someone else to do it. The wav file is just a dummy to test the proposed format -- if you can convert it or replace with other bagpipe music, please do. -- isis 15:13 Oct 28, 2002 (UTC)

Derek -- I know it's too soon to start working on the content, but would you please start formulating a policy for how we want to deal with the title "laird"? Should it have its own page besides being dealt with in the 'clan' article, and do we want to use it in the articles and link it to the explanation, or what? -- isis 15:25 Oct 28, 2002 (UTC)

This is where the two cultures aspect of Scotland comes up. Clan chiefs are a feature of the Gaelic speaking Highlands. Historically they tend to be leaders of their people. Lairds are found in the Scots speaking Lowlands. Historically they tend to be feudal landowners -- not all of them are lords. The distinction between chiefs and lairds became more and more blurred post-1745. Throughout the 19th century, more and more "chiefs" started acting like "lairds" instead and either sold the clan lands to outsiders or cleared the land of people so that it could be turned to sheep or deer. That's why most of the clan maps show the clan positions, pre-1745. Migration and emigration has changed things completely today. However for the Highland clans it would be possible to create a lineage page for the chiefs. I'll have a think about it tomorrow. -- Derek Ross 23:35 Oct 28, 2002 (UTC)

I've put a caption under the tartan, and I've had second thoughts about putting the location/map to the right of the crest and plant badges, because if there's a second tartan, I'm thinking to put it under the first one. If there are three or more, I'm thinking to put pairs of them across the page under the first one and above the text info, with any odd one still taking that space to the right of the badge images. For the captions, I thought "tartan" if we don't know which it is, "dress tartan" or "hunting tartan" if we do. -- isis 15:52 Oct 28, 2002 (UTC)

I picked up an image of the Clan Ross hunting tartan off the Internet and added it to the sample page, although I don't much like the quality of it. Here's a link to a website with lots of clan tartans and crest badges, for anyone who wants to see what they look in photos: http://www.scottishcrofters.com/clan_crest_jewelry.htm.

The Clan Chattan sounds interesting in a number of ways, so I suggest once we settle on a standard format, we use that one to test it -- not only is it organized differently, but its plant badge is the whortleberry, which I've been meaning to find a picture of since I did some work on Farkle, because some of our colleagues are fascinated with the name "farkleberry," which is an alternate name for the whortleberry. And that will give us a chance, I think, to address the issue of whether to make separate articles for septs that have their own tartan, history, etc., enough to make a whole article. If our standard format works for that clan, it'll probably work for them all. -- isis 21:37 Oct 28, 2002 (UTC)

I think that we should make separate pages for the septs, since many of them have separate tartans and we would have tartan overload if we tried to put it all on one page. The sept pages won't need the complete details since they don't normally have their own chiefs, crests, mottoes, etc. -- Derek Ross 23:35 Oct 28, 2002 (UTC)

I think you're right. Would we want to use a simplified format, showing only what's different (like the tartan) and linking to the clan page for the rest, or repeat some or all of the clan info (like the crest)? And, back to the subject of "laird," should we try to keep up with who the chiefs are of all the clans by individual name? I wouldn't think so for the separate pages (too much upkeep), but I'm thinking either on the 'clan' page or (better I think) on a 'list of incumbents' page of its own? If we did, what source would we use to know when one of them changed? -- isis 23:51 Oct 28, 2002 (UTC)

Simplified format -- Definitely. I thought that we should only show what's different. Keep common stuff on the clan page. Re keeping up with present clan chief -- these people are reasonably long lived so the information shouldn't become outdated very quickly. Knowing when there has been a change is a bit trickier. The source for that information would have to be Lord Lyon, King of Arms, but I don't know if his website publishes the info or not. I'll have a look around and see what I can find.

Good news! Burkes Peerage is finally going to list Clan Chiefs -- Derek Ross

Derek -- I know you're not done playing around, but here are some of my opinions so far:

I pretty sure we don't want to have "modern" and "ancient" tartans because of the variation in monitors -- there's no way we can make the distinction well enough for people to see it; even if we could, there's no more information in the second one -- the information is the pattern. On both my monitors, for example, many of the tartans on the external page I linked to are black -- I had to download the one I used and lighten it even to see what color it is. So all we can hope to illustrate is the pattern, not the variations in shade/hue.

That's a pity. The variations show up quite well on my screen. The exact hues don't matter too much since that depends on the manufacturer to some degree. -- Derek Ross

I'm very much in favor of having tartans where they'll show when the screen comes up, so if we're going to put them side-by-side, I'm going to lobby vigorously for having no more than two across (to keep the screen where I don't have to use the bar to move back and forth to read the text) and right under the introductory sentence or two. (And under Wikipedia guidelines, the images should not be more than 400 pixels wide, so even two is stretching the limit.)

I find blocking the tartans together aesthetically offensive, and those border things around them are extremely annoying, aside from the fact that they're always screwing up the formats by overwriting other stuff in other articles. Principles of good page layout call for balancing the elements, and our tartan blocks are the "heaviest" elements, so they need to be strewn about the page with other elements around them, not massed together in a block. -- isis 00:53 Oct 29, 2002 (UTC)

No problem. It was just an experiment. I'm sure that I'll make a lot more mistakes before we're finished! HoweverW, we will have to handle more than two tartans for many clans. Even for Ross there are three basic different patterns, Ross (Red, Blue and Green), Red Ross (Red and Black) and Hunting Ross (Green, Black and Red). I would like the images to be smaller than they are in any case. That would help with the heaviness. -- Derek Ross

I didn't mean to sound critical -- I know from long experience that the only way to do layouts is to play around with them (and I tried it many different ways before posting the one I did), but I did want to remind you of the general principles you're stuck with, to save you some wasted effort.

What smaller size are you thinking of for the tartans images? The Ross tartans could certainly go smaller, but we're looking for a standard size (although we don't have to have them all the same size, and there is something to be said for making them different sizes in the interest of visual diversity), and some of the "busier" ones -- like Grant, most of the MacDonalds, and Ogilvie of Airlie -- have so many tiny stripes I'm afraid they would get lost if we went much smaller, or else we'd have to focus in to where we lost the "repeat" of the pattern, which I believe is crucial. I'm also thinking that someday someone is going to convert all the JPG images to PNG (or something) and some of the detail is going to be lost.

Yes, I, too, am concerned over blocking even three tartan images together. I keep flip-flopping between wanting to do them as a sort of checkerboard with the various text elements in the other positions and wanting to do them in pairs as dividers between the text elements, with any odd one next to a block of text. Or we could put them and the list of septs in two columns down the page. I think the location/map is going to have to be a good-sized block, too, if we're going to use the same map of all Scotland to make comparisons easier.

The main thing I don't want you to lose sight of is how fascinating the rest of us find your tartans (not the clan thing, mind you, but the tartan thing), and if you haven't seen what User:Ram-Man said on my talk page, you might want to take a look at it -- he never heard of a tartan (or the clans, I gather) until the topic turned up in this project, but didn't it suck him right in? The tartan images are the "hook" that will draw readers in, too, and we want to use them to the best advantage, because the 'pedia is a wasted effort if readers don't learn something from it. -- isis 14:00 Oct 29, 2002 (UTC)

http://www.tartans.scotland.net/ is an interesting site. -- Derek Ross 12:38 Oct 29, 2002 (UTC)

Part of what sucked me in was the origin of my name. I know that my family's name "Ramsey" comes from the British Isle, and I think it may come from Scotland. I looked at the website and found some entries for "Ramsay", which is a just a variant spelling I am sure. That and being a Wikiproject troll/spider/whatever. Still the tartans are, at least to me, the most interesting part of the project. I wouldn't mind learning more about where my name came from (even if it turns out that it isn't scotish) -- Ram-Man

You're right, their tartans are numerous and documented well, and the images are so good I can make out the lighter ones on my monitor. They're 320 x 240 pixels, so if we went with 240 x 240 for our standard tartan image, it would make producing all the images much easier. -- isis 14:16 Oct 29, 2002 (UTC)

I've reduced the tartan images to 240 x 240. -- isis 15:13 Oct 29, 2002 (UTC)

suggestion for the crest and plant badge is to make a link to a full size one. - fonzy

Sounds good. Go ahead! -- Derek Ross 21:35 Nov 4, 2002 (UTC)

Just to give you my impressions, I think there needs to be a bit more basic info. Maybe it should be at clan and tartan and the like instead of at each clan, but I don't think I really understand what this is in Scottish culture. Is it simply an extended family that chooses a motto and official pattern? Is a tartan just a pattern on cloth or is it the cloth which is only used for kilts or whathaveyou? How and why are tartans and mottos chosen? Is anybody with the last name "Ross" automatically a member, or do you have to apply and do you have to actually have that name to be a member? Who decides what is a clan and what isn't? If I moved to Scotland and declared myself a clan (Clan Tuccinardi), would I have to apply to a board or would I be rejected simply by being ignored? What, exactly, is a clan and why does anybody care about them? Tokerboy 03:31 Dec 9, 2002 (UTC)

I think this is a call for someone to write an article on the Tartan and the scottish clan. -- Ram-Man

It looks like it. I'll have to put something together. In the meantime here are answers to Tokerboy's questions.

A clan is an extended family or group of families which used to act under the leadership of a clan chief. That means that, several hundred years ago, they referred to him to settle internal disputes and to organise cattle raids/protection against rival clans in the lawless West (of Scotland).

The mottoes and the official patterns are irrelevant really, but Scots have always liked heraldry, coats of arms, etc., so nearly all clans have them.

Tartan is just a pattern. It was originally woven into woollen cloth as different coloured threads but it can be printed and often is nowadays on cheap souvenirs. It's not just used for kilts. You can get tartan scarves, tartan waistcoats, tartan trousers, tartan wallpaper, tartan socks, tartan tablecloths, tartan bedspreads, tartan umbrellas, tartan teapot cosies, etc., etc., etc. The list is endless as you will see if you go into any souvenir shop in Scotland. No tartan paint yet but no doubt someone is working on it. A few of the oldest tartans are traditional (ie no one knows who invented them) but the vast majority were invented by someone and registered. This is still happening and you too can do it. It's a bit like registering your own domain name.

How are tartans and mottoes chosen? It depends. If an organisation decides to use a tartan it probably uses focus groups, market research, and the rest of the marketing stuff to choose it. For a clan, it's unlikely that the tartan was chosen unless the clan didn't have a tartan until very recently. For older clan tartans, the tartan was possibly associated with the area where the clan was based (because weavers in the area used it as a kind of trademark) and it became associated with the clan as a result. As for mottoes, some of them are battle cries, others are boasts or statements which some clan chief liked at some time, I suppose, so they were registered with the Lord Lyon, King of Arms, as the official motto for the family.

Anybody with the last name "Ross" is a member of Clan Ross. It doen't matter whether you're Cameron Ross from Skye or Diana Ross from Detroit, you're in on the basis of your last name as it's assumed by other clan members that you are either a descendant or want to be part of the clan. You don't have to have a last name of Ross but if it's not Ross, it should be one of the associated sept names. This is no problem in Scotland for people wanting to join a clan since the law allows you to change your name any time you like without any legal process but it is trickier in more authoritarian parts of the world.

The Lord Lyon, King of Arms, is probably the only person who might legally be able to decide what is a clan and what isn't. However a clan is a Celtic concept, so Norman Heraldic law doesn't necessarily apply. I would certainly describe the Mafia families as clans (very much so) and if you want to declare yourself a member of the Clan Tuccinardi, I for one won't argue your right to do so (even if you don't move to Scotland). Most Italian families don't have tartans or heraldic mottoes but only because they haven't been registered yet. If you want a Tuccinardi tartan, you need to design it and register it with the Tartan council. Of course, another Tuccinardi may already have done this. The coat of arms and motto is a bit trickier but you could apply to the Lord Lyon's court for help with the process.

Finally, who cares about clans? Well, clans aren't directly important to modern Scotland. You won't see much evidence of them in daily life unless you're a tourist. The clan system (as a social system) broke down as a result of Government hostility, the potato famine, the Industrial revolution and the Highland Clearances. By the 1870s it was basically gone. Nowadays it's only of historical and nostalgic interest. However these interests are very important to many people, particularly Scots overseas. It has been observed that the further you move Scots from Scotland, the more Scottish they become. The clan system has been something that Scots could hold on to even though they were forced to emigrate far from their homelands. That is why clan associations and so forth are more common and more important for Scots overseas than they are for Scots in Scotland itself. -- Derek Ross

[edit] Munro Clan

The Munro clan was only a Sept of Ross until about the 11th or 12th century, until they got their own territory and there own castle and then they themselves were in control of Septs in their own lands. However they did remain good allies with the Ross Clan.

[edit] Broken Link

Looks like the first external link is busted. Mojo Tooth 08:01, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I'll check it out. -- Derek Ross | Talk 15:41, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hawkhead or Halkhead?

The article mentions a Lord of Hawkhead and a Lord of Halkhead. I assume one is a mistake. Maproom (talk) 15:43, 31 May 2008 (UTC)