Talk:Clan Moffat

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If someone can find references, this interesting fact should be added: Clan Moffat is the only clan to be so honored by parliament as to be designated "a lawless and unruly clan." We could probably leave out any politically incorrect facts about Moffats being prone to stealing cattle and mooning people they wish to taunt.

Thank you to everyone who has been contributing to this article. It has been coming along nicely!!!

5/28/07

Discussion on origin of the name "Moffat": Whenever a clan and a place have the same name, there usually develops a discussion of "which came first," id est, did the family give its name to the place or did the place give its name to the family? Exempli grati: Johnstone. It comes from "John's toun," Gillibertus de Johnistoun appears in Annandale between 1194 and 1214. His father John, first laird of Lochwood, lived in the latter half of the 12th century. Presumably, therefore, John gave his name to the district he settled, and then his son Gilbert took his name back from it. Regarding the name "Moffat," an historical basis is not as simple, partly because of its extreme antiquity, and partly because of a number of eminent scholars with differing ideas, who have looked in great depth into limited scopes, usually ignoring other fields of research. Chalmers, in his "Caledonia," holds that the Gaelic Magh fada derives from the Erse Mai fad, both of the meaning "long plain." Long, in "The Names We Bear," theorizes Moffat was corrupted from the Erse "oua vat" meaning "a long deep mountain hollow." Johnston's book, "Place Names of Scotland," says the Welsh "maf ffetan," which means "breaks out or forms a cluster sack." A different theory is that the name is of Norse origins, stemming from Movat, like Mowat did. Meiklejoh, who wrote on the Normans in Scotland, said, "Another Norman baron, Robert de Montealt had his name corrupted into Mowat and left it to the town of Moffat." Anderson's "The Scottish Nation," says, "Mowat, a surname originally Montealt... and in the course of time eventually softened into Moffat." In "The Genealogy of the Grants," Chapman (in 1727) writes, "Andlaw, alias Allan, Grant came to Scotland from Norway during the 10th century. He was succeeded by his son Patrick in the lands of Fruichy (ancient Grant lands on Speyside). Fergusia, one of his four daughters, was married to Hacken, a Norway Prince. Moral, the third of his duaghters, married Dunbar, Earl of March, and Colabella, the youngest, married William de Monte, progenitor of the Movats, alias Moffats." Normans were Northmen, or Norsemen, sho had previsouly moved down from Scandinavia and settled in what was to become known as Normandy. The Normans came as conquerors to England, but to Scotland as individual groups of visitors and settlers from the days of St. Margaret (1045-93) and for at least a century thereafter. There is a "Willielmus de Monte Alto" listed in the Ragman Roll of 1296. Possibly, either William de Monte or Robert de Montealt, both Norman barons, gave his name to the area, and through the passage of time, with help from local dialect such as "Magh fada," softened into Movat, Mowat, and Moffat. In light of the numerous spellings of surnames, it is logical that both men bore the same surname. There is also heraldic evidence that both the Mowat and Moffat came from "de Monte Alto." Mowat of Buchollie in Aberdeenshire and Moffat of Wachopegill near Langholm at one time bore identical Arms: On an argent field, a lion rampant sable with claws and tongue gules (silver shield with a black rampant lion with red claws and tongue). This is clearly a Norman symbol, and a variation of the pre-1190 Bruce shield, and is also shown on two de Monte Alto seals dated about 1300. The seal ascribed to Robert de Moffet, who, with Thomas de Moffet, also of Dumfriesshire, in a document to Edward I in 1296 bears the fleur-de-lys and the inscription "S. Roberti Movest," which is not so different from Movat and very easily corrupted into "Moffet." Also, on the ragman roll, two Moffats and one de Monte Alto appear together, which may perhaps indicate some softening of the name to its modern form had begun to occur.

Also, it should be noted that on present day Ordnance Survey maps the name "Moffatdale" is very different from what it used to be. From very early times, and until at least as late as 1567, the whole upper valley of the Annan Water was known as "Moffatdail." The present smaller area associated with the name "Moffat" has become much smaller than it used to be. Therefore, considering the much greater area known by the name "moffat" and the numerous historical Norse links, it is hasty to assume that the town was simply named after a geographic feature.

Insightfullysaid 18:43, 28 May 2007 (UTC)Insightfullysaid

[edit] clan vs place

i said this on the town article but the romans found the town moffat and the clan named theselfs after it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.201.197.61 (talk) 19:46, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

References Please, this is interesting material, and I have never heard of it before. Cheers. Insightfully-said