Talk:Civil war

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[edit] this is very important you under stand this for your C.E EXams

I don't think that is quite right. The overthrow of the established regime is essential if either of the terms revolution or coup are to be applied. It is not the case though that every failed revolution is a civil war or that every revolution is a civil war. The term Revolution would not have been applicable to the US Civil war if the South had won.
In the English civil war there were two powers with rival (and substantial) claims to legitimacy. It is not a revolution as Parliament claimed to be acting to protect its existing rights not create new ones. The same is true in the US Civil war and the Spanish Civil war. The French Revolution was proclaimed as such, it war not really a civil war or for that matter much of a war of any sort. The same is true of the Russian Revolution. There was plenty of bloodshed but most of it happened after the new power was already in control. --Gorgonzilla 06:19, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The Mexican Revolution is indeed a good example of a revolution that was also a civil war. But the opening generalization is false. In the English Civil War the rebelling party won, yet it was called a civil war not a revolution. Also, although the Americans won their revolution and it was called a revolution, I am not sure I would characterize it as a civil war -- there is a strong argument that the revolution only happened after Americans stopped thinking of themselves a English (or at least, those Americans who revolted). Moreover, the revolutionaries were not fighting for control over England (as was the case in the English Civil War). In short, I agree that there is some overlap between civil wars and revolutions, and the article ought to address this. But the claim that "If the rebelling party was successful in overthrowing the established government, it is usually termed a revolution, but if they were not successful it is other termed a civil war." is at best helpful, at best, leading, AR

What is the English war between King Stephen and Empress Maud called? Surely that was a civil war that should be noted in this article. -- isis 3 Sep 2002

I am not sure but didn't the Holy Roman Empire have a civil war?
Traditionally (and not necessarily logically), the period of competition for the succession between Stephen and Matilda is referred to as "The Anarchy." This may be because it wasn't entirely internal. Matilda was the "empress" because she was sent to Germany at the age of seven to prepare for marriage to Henry V. Her 2nd husband was Geoffrey Plantagenet, Count of Anjou. For that matter, Stephen of Blois wasn't "English," either. With none of the principals being "English," it's never seemed like a "civil war." At least, that's how I've explained it to my own students! --Michael K. Smith 14:02, 15 March 2006 (UTC)--Michael K. Smith 14:02, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Contributors to this page may wish to know someone has stolen the content without credit, violating our license. See Wikipedia:Copies of Wikipedia content (low degree of compliance), section Civil-War.ws. You may wish to contact the site at info@civil-war.ws to voice a complaint. Derrick Coetzee 00:40, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

A civil war is a war in which parties within the same country or empire struggle for national control of state power.

I have a problem with this opening definition, in the context of the American Civil War. Without getting into the eternal, unwinnable political arguments of what the "causes" of that struggle were, it can be fairly argued that the goal of the Confederacy was not to take "control of state power" but to successfully secede -- i.e., to leave the Union and be left alone. You can make the same argument about Biafra's attempted secession and the resulting "Nigerian civil war." Thoughts, anyone? --Michael K. Smith 14:02, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] First sentence

"civil war is a war in which parties within the same culture, society or nationality." Is it just me or is this an incomplete sentence? I only ask because it's been this way for months, thought maybe I was missing something. --Joewithajay 20:19, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

At what point does the escalation become a Civil War? The escalating sectarian violence in Iraq, has not been declared a Civil War, yet. At what point, or how many Sunnis and Shi'a have to die before it is a Civil War? (RobertHC 11:17, 12 July 2006 (UTC))

[edit] First sentence

I agree. I took the liberty of changing it to something more complete by adding the words "fight for control" to the end of it. none of this is correct...i am right...you are wrong! ah hahahah!'

[edit] Vandalism

This article has been vandalised so frequently, should it be semi-protected? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Draicone (talk • contribs)

I dunno. It often seems like no edits are done to this article except vandalism/reverts. See WP:SPP, this kind of falls in the grey area. It's not really kosher to just semi-protect an article perpetually because it might get vandalized. But then again, this article sees 10-20 vandal edits a month pretty much perpetually, spiking quite a bit when school is in session in the US/UK. But it doesn't seem to be anything we can't keep up with... so for now semi-protection doesn't really seem needed.or dose it.!!!!!!! --W.marsh 02:01, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Who the hell made Civil War refer to demons, the devil or HELL. This article is certainly vandalised and please have some integrety, It's not our fault you are stupid and uneducated. (I'm refering to the devil guy lol). And yes seriously the guy doesn't even know what the hell civil war is or what not. I came from a country that was in a civil war. El Salvador 1980 - 1992. Very recent huh? Anyways I agree with the dude above me. This should be protected (even thou its been a while). -- Xangel 07:02, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

The following passage uses condescending, unsupported and subjective terminology against monotheistic societies that do not respect Wikipedia's NPOV policy. I ask the moderators to please edit it with the following nuances (in bold text).

Quote: In the history of Abrahamic religions, civil wars fought over religion have tended to be reported more frequently in monotheistic societies than in polytheistic societies; one explanation is that the latter tend to be more easily "assimiliated" in terms of dogma, for being bound by strict articles of faith.

In its current version, the text not so subtly suggests that monotheists are bigots, whereas the destruction of Jerusalem by Saduceans Geeks and later Romans was caused by Greco-Romans' imposition of their worship views on Israelites, who refused assimilation. Likewise, early Christians were a persecuted sect under Roman polytheism, as are modern-day Falung Dung under Communist ideology in China. Conversely, Christianization of pagans during the Early middle ages showed an inverse movement against polytheists. The issue is that powerful groups tend to force their views over less powerful groups; the assertion hat monotheism is by default more enclined to civil war is a subjective and highly debateable opinion. In this article, teducing this complex issue to gross presumed tendency of monotheists to impose their faith on polytheists is not a NPVO. Hence I ask the moderators to nuance the facts therein.

Thanks - ENB, Canada (Oct 5 2006)

the whole article under Pre-modern civil wars should be deleted. First of all prior to the Middle Ages and during Civil Wars didn't occur, because there really wasn't nation states. The pagan Romans had many civil wars, often fought for control of the Empire, but the barbarians, who were not always pagans, lived in tribal societies, not nations. Perhaps it is a case of rural versus urban. Most wars then were conquests. Anyway everything else following also seems unencyclopedic, even if it is scholarly, it is an opinion and theories. Perhaps a list of civil wars based on religion would help. I believe the main difference between different Islamic sects is who is the rightful leader, in a way a political issue. Also, wars against catholics have been seen as wars against the Pope's political authority. These wars occurred in societies with a poor concept of the separation of religion and State. This includes polytheistic nations where the rulers were viewed as divine. Rds865 (talk) 21:14, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Criteria is"

The following sentence appears: "Other historians state the criteria for a civil war is that there must be prolonged violence between organized factions or defined regions of a country (conventionally fought or not)." be "criterion." I'm not a trusted member, or whatever it's called, so I can't change it, but I wish someone would. Plkldf 13:30, 7 October 2006 (UTCPTK, Batimore MD USA

[edit] Stone Arm's and Deadleg

There is a civil war story that hasn't been proved so is considered myth. The story of the two soldiers Brian Breeding and Micheal Lockhart. Brian "Stone Arm's" Breeding was a soldier who gave his life in battle and his friend Micheal "Dead Leg" Lockhart who did not leave Brian behind. Brian and Micheal was sent out into the field as scouts. The two were deep into the enemies territory when they were spotted and shot at. Brin was hit in the stomach and Micheal was fine. Brian died by Micheal's side. Micheal remembered a quote he heard long ago, "Never leave a man behind", and with that he carried Brian home. It took the two 5 days to reach the base. That is a hero if I've ever heard of one. (UTC)

what does that have to do with anything? Rds865 (talk) 21:34, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Revoltuion and Civil War - MUST BE CORRECTLY DEFINED

This is Xangel and I gotta tell ya there is confussion wit revolution and civil war. The Sub-artice Revolution is completely false. I hate it in fact. "A revolution is generally seen as a civil war fought over issues of ideology" - IT IS NEVER AN IDEOLOGY. Ideology is simply a basis to implement the change needed. And that what a revolution is it is change. The Industirial Revolution is an major economic change and is not around ideology. olution refers to change, and a civil war can lead to a revolution. In the case of the United States of America, they had the American Civil War between the Americans and the British. Two parties fighting each for their own purpoor reason. The Americans were fighting against the tyanny of the British and for their liberty from them. The British, I assume, retaliate to gainack th power. When the Civil War ended with the Declaration of Independance now the American Revolution began, implementing the change of a new democracy for the United States. Revolution an civil war are not the same. I don't think you can ever say a revolution is a civil war becse they are two different phases in history. And certainly what I've been taught in History class is that the Civil War is the Pre-condition and Critical Period for the American Revolution.

Also with reference to Russia, Red Guards organized by Leon Trotsky initiated a coup. It was certainly quick in which always there is that confusion that a revolution is quick which in fact is never an element for a revolution. Also you were wrong Gorgonzilla, there was barely, or at most no bloodshed for the October Revolution (Russia had three Revolutions in case you didn't know: the March Revolution of 1901, the February Revolution of 1917 and the October Bolshevik Revolution of 1917 that formed the Soviet Union). Now this was a coup, a quick overthrow of a regime which then initiated the Communi Bolshevik Revolution. There was no civil war. The only civil war Russia had was when the interventionists compose of the allied parties, the White Army from the other opposition parties fought against the Bolsheviks. Another group included the Greens a peasant oppositi group that is against the both Reds and Whites. Now this is a civil. Several parties fighting against each other within a nation. But it is not a revolution, in fact if the Whites had won it is the destruction of a revolution.

This article is completely wrong and I disagree with it fully. I would like it to be changed completely or at least cleaned up.

Revolutions
A revolution is generally seen as a civil war fought over issues of ideology, over how power should be organized and distributed, not merely over which individuals hold it. The classic example of a revolution, and by some arguments the first is the French Revolution, which is seen to have pitted the middle class and urban poor of France against the aristocracy and monarchy. Some argue that revolutions are a modern continuation of the peasant revolts of the past. Unlike peasant revolts, however, revolutions are almost always led by members of the educated, but disaffected, middle class who they the large mass of the population to their cause. Others see ideology as merely replacing religion as a justification and motivation for violence that is fundamentally caused by socioeconomic factors. To be successful revolutions almost always require use of armed force and sometimes escalate to a civil war, such as in the Chinese Civil War. In some cases, such as the French and Russian Revolutions the revolutionaries succeed in gaining power through a ick coup or localized uprising, but a civil war results from counterrevolutionary forces organizing to crush the revolution.

Peasants revolts?? Always led by members of the cated, but disaffected, middle class?? What the *&$% (excuse my language lol) but seriously this generalisation has gotta stop. A Revolution is never ever a fight. Look at Venezuela. President Hugo Chavez Frias initiated the Bolivarian Revolution (still going on by the way) which is economic, social change and is not a fight or civil war.

By the way I'm sorry that I have given a lecture. I tend to do that in order to achieve a point. Sorry. But yeah a revolution is not a civil war and only refers to change.

--Xangel 07:05, 9 December 2006 )
The Wiki policy is No Original Research--definitions and analysis must be based on the consensus of experts and fully referenced. IF Xangel wants to point to some studies we should look at, please cite them.Rjensen 06:40, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


Scholars who are experts on revolution disagree about the definition. Samuel P. Huntington has a narrow definition, excluded wars of independence, coups, and other wars that change only politics, and also requires violence for it to be a revolution. On the other hand many scholars define the American Revolution, English Revolution and India's struggle for independence, revolutions, as well as any communist movement. Huntington says the point of a revolution is to expand participation, but that it also has social and economic changes, as well as political. The basic agreement is that revolution is about rapid change, as opposed to reform, which is about gradual change. That is revolutionaries want a new system, reformers want to fix the old one. As far as this article is concerned a civil war can be a revolution, but not a revolution is not a civil war. Rds865 (talk) 20:14, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] International and Military Definitions

The Final Record of the Diplomatic Conference of Geneva of 1949, (Volume II-B, p. 121) does not specifically define the term ‘civil war’. It did, however, describe the criteria that separate any act committed by force of arms (anarchy, terrorism, or plain banditry) from those qualifying as ‘armed conflict not of an international character’ (including civil wars). Among those conditions listed are these four basic requirements.

• The party in revolt must be in possession of a part of the national territory.

• The insurgent civil authority must exercise de facto authority over the population within the determinate portion of the national territory.

• The insurgents must have some amount of recognn as a belligerent.

• The legal Government is “obliged to have recourse to the regular military forces against insurgents organized as military.”

The ICRC further clarified the nature of ‘armconflicts not of an international character’ that was referred to in Article 3 of the Geneva Convention. They stated that this type of conflict “generally refer to conflicts with armed forces on either side which are in many respects similar to an international war, but take place within the confines of a single country.” http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/COM/375-590006?OpenDocument

The U.S. military has adopted the tenets set forth by the Diplomatic Conference of Geneva for their definition of a civil war. Their definition, however, includes an additional requirement for identifiable armed forces. The December 1990 version of FM 100-20 (Military Operations in Low Intensity Conflict) defines a civil w “A war between factions of the same country; there are five criteria for international recognition of this status: the contestants must control territory, have a functioning government, enjoy some foreign recognition, have identifiable regular armed forces, and engage in major military operations.” --Uwops 20:45, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

At the end of the first bullet it states (currently) that "This is surprising." It does not expand on this statement, nor does it seem to to the information contained therein. -fauxanadu

[edit] Political Scientist vs. Scholars

I moved the sentences that defined civil war based on the view of 'political scientist' to the section on definitions. Most of that content was already here and was redundant. I also corrected 'Political Scientist' to 'Scholars' to acctely reflect the citation. The citation did go on mention one political scientist, but he offered no opinion on the definition. Also, this citation required a subscription to read. Is it possible to limit citations to articles that do not incur costs? --Uwops 13:19, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with cleaning this article up a little. I don't disagree with it totally, though. Someone pay attention to the precise wording in this article, please.

i added a comma where it was needed

[edit] Interwiki

Since I don't have an account on the en-Wikipedia, could you please add the lb-Interwiki Link ? -> [[lb:Biergerkrich]]. Thx. --62.178.100.7 22:38, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 'pre-modern civil wars'

I removed the para about religion, ideology or nationalsim not playing a apsrt in 'pre-modern civil wars'. First of all, that is demonstrably not true. Look at the French Wars of Religion, the English Civil War, the Fronde, the Dutch Revolt, the Irish Rebellion of 1641 etc etc. While feudal and dynastic factors may also have been important, this does not mean that religious, ideological or ethnic factors did not play some part. In any case, it is far too broad a statement for the opening paragrap of the article and far too pov. Jdorney 15:04, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Definition

For some reason, a dictionary definition is absent in article. I placed the MW defintion of civil war under 'definition'; MW being a commonly accepted dictionary. The content that was there was placed under 'scholarly opinion' as the citations do not refer to anything other than selected scholar's opinion of the classification of the Iraq War. Angncon (talk) 06:38, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] American Revolution

is it really a civil war? a civil war is different than a war of independence, although it isn't always clear. Rds865 (talk) 20:16, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] grammar, grammar, grammar

1st sentence as of 5/30/08: "A civil war is a military conflict what arises..."

"what" should be "that"

Okay, I'll assume it's a typo, not poor grammar.

198.133.245.253 (talk) 21:41, 30 May 2008 (UTC)