Talk:Civic Platform

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How is PO a "liberal conservative" party? In my mind, liberal conservatism is the result of either 1) a conservative party that adopts some liberal policies to appeal more to voters in the centre (like the Moderate Party in Sweden; their new leader talks a lot about "exclusion" and wants tax cuts to favour low- and middle-income earners) or 2) a liberal party that adopts some conservative policies to appeal more to voters on the right (like the Liberal Party in Australia; I refer especially to their immigration policy). In my mind, PO is a liberal party (or free market liberal if you want to be more precise). Their policies and general ideology seems to me to be thoroughly liberal, with the emphasis on freedom for the individual that goes with it. Tamino 12:59, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I've just been on their website. They say they represent a "synthesis of liberal, conservative and Christian democracy" so I'll change it back to saying that the party is "liberal conservative". But I would recommend changing the name of the article to "Civic Platform", as this is their translation. In my view, the party's translation should be used - consider the confusion if the Danish party name Det Radikale Venstre (the Danish Social Liberal Party) was translated literally to "The Radical Left"! Tamino 13:09, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree with the namechange - "Citizens platform" has been a permanent eyesore imho. In fact, since they translate their own name as "Civic", I think I'll do a redirect right away. Deuar 13:32, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Or maybe I won't - the name is already taken by a redirect, it appears. I'll try to implement the procedure... Deuar 13:39, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Civic Platform" or "The Civic Platform"?

Is "Platforma Obywatelska" definate or indefinate in Polish? I have always heard PO referred to as "Civic Platform" (indefinate), rather than "The Civic Platform". Tamino 20:07, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

...and PO refers to itself as "Civic Platform" (indefinate) on its website. Tamino 20:09, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

That's a bit of a hard question, actually. In Polish definate or indefinate are not so strictly defined as in english -- there's no counterparts for "the" and "a". Instead variable word endings are used. When a noun is used in a sentence, you can tell from the surrounding endings and/or the context whether it is being used as a definate or indefinate form, but when the noun is just by itself it's not clear. I'm trying to think what the convention is in articles about parties in english speaking countries, and I think it varies. Also, somehow I have a gut feeling that putting "the" in front of "Civic platform" is not right. Just "Civic platform" in the article title seems to better convey the feeling of the name, if you like. The name in polish doesn't particularly convey the notion that it's the only platform for civic expression. But that's just a vague impression I have. Deuar 21:33, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree that just "Civic Platform" does sound better, and avoids implying that PO has a monopoly of representing citizens. Tamino 10:27, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that 'civic' relates to a city or town, 'civil' is much more general and is identified with the whole country. The name 'Platforma Obywatelska' means 'Platform of Civilians' more than 'Platform of Citizens' so I am convinced that 'Civil Platform' is the best option. Secondly platform is definite, you should use 'The Civil Platform' as far as you would use 'The Labour Party' in the same context. rabjan

I dunno - I don't think 'civic' refers particularly to a city or town, although it sometimes can. For example "civic duties", "civic expression" are not at all related to towns, but to being a `good citizen'. "Civil" on the other hand seems too vague, like "Publiczny" (public), "Urzedowy" (public/official), "Cywilny" (civillian) or "Cywilizowany" (civilized) in Polish. Deuar 20:16, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. Also, I don't understand why "platform" is necessarily definate - there is such a thing as "a platform", after all. Tamino 14:49, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Liberal conservative, not liberal

The issue of classifying PO has been discussed above. Although their policy platform is strongly influenced by free-market liberalism, they describe themselves on their website as "a synthesis of Liberal, Conservative and Christian-Democratic beliefs". Thus "liberal conservative" is more appropriate than liberal. They are certainly similar to other liberal conservative parties, for example the Moderate Party of Sweden. Tamino 18:47, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

The current article only states their economically liberal policies - it has no mention of their Christian conservative views. It should mention why they are termed liberal conservative. Joffeloff 22:01, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] International affiliation

Christian Democrat International no longer exists, because it was renamed in 2001 to Centrist Democrat International. There are no informations about Civic Platform affiliation to any of these organizations on the Internet, at least I haven't found any. If anyone can confirm that they are member party of CDI (or any other political international) and provide some reference, do it. Otherwise, information about their international affiliation will be deleted. Ammon86 14:19, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Information deleted. Ammon86 18:24, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Civic Platform is a member of the European People's Party, the main Christian Democratic and conservative grouping in the European Parliament.84.26.1.92 07:27, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, it is already written in the article!!! --Checco 11:11, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I was asking about Centrist Democrats International, not the European People's Party. Perhaps I have wrong sources, but on the CDI website [1] Civic Platform is not mentioned. Ammon86 16:52, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

You are right and we should also correct the article on Centrist Democrat International right now. --Checco 17:31, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] PO and trade unions

Plaese, don't paste the information about the trade unions. It's not true. I am sorry for my English. Encepence 13:28, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Please find a source: that informations has been there for months and I think that it is a qualifying ponit for a liberal-conservative party as PO is. --Checco 01:19, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Sources:

program_wyborczy_po7-ebook.pdf,

program_po_1216116511.pdf,

suplemnt___rozdzia__xi___wolni_obywatele_w_bezpiecznym_panstwie.pdf,

program.pdf,

panstwo_dla_obywateli.pdf,

powrot_do_domu.pdf Encepence 09:54, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok, as I can't speak Polish, for now I give up with this discussion, but I'm sorry that your move could undermine the profile of the party, if that information was correct. --Checco 12:49, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

From program_wyborczy_po7-ebook.pdf, page 8-9 (exactly the same in program_po_1216116511.pdf, Page 11):

„Polskę ogarnia fala stagnacji i niewiary w przyszłość. Główną przyczyną jest paraliżowanie rozwijającej się przedsiębiorczości i obywatelskiej inicjatywy przez biurokrację, złe prawo i grupowe interesy związków zawodowych. Nie ma innej skutecznej polityki gospodarczej – jak polityka konkurencji, ochrony własności prywatnej i twardego rozprawienia się przez państwo z przyczynami paraliżu przedsiębiorczości.”

(„Poland is engulfed by wave of stagnation and lack of faith in the future. The main reason is parylysing of developing entrepreneurship and civic initiative by beaurocracy, bad law and group interest of labour unions. There is no other effective economic policy – like policy of competition, protection of private property and tough crackdown by state on reasons of entrepreneurship paralyse.“)

From program.pdf, page 6:

„Wolność gospodarcza nie może być skrępowana nadmiarem barier związanych z prawem pracy, systemem podatkowym czy obciążeniami związanymi z ubezpieczeniami społecznymi, gdyż w efekcie hamuje to procesy inwestycyjne takie jak rozbudowa infrastruktury i komunikacji. Restrykcyjna regulacja życia gospodarczego przez państwo skutecznie odstrasza, zwłaszcza młodych ludzi, od podejmowania własnej działalności gospodarczej. Zmiana tego stanu rzeczy jest podstawowym zadaniem Platformy Obywatelskiej.”

(„Economic freedom cannot be hindered by an excess of barriers connected with labour law, tax system or burdens binded with social insurance, because in effect it hampers investition processes such like expansion of infrastructure and communication. Restrictive regulations of economic life by state efficiently drives away, especially young people, from undertaking own economic activity. Change of this state of affairs is the basic objective of Civic Platform.”)

From panstwo_dla_obywateli, page 81:

„Potrzebna jest również liberalizacja prawa pracy. Wiele regulacji polskiego prawa pracy jest bardziej restrykcyjnych niż wymagania Unii Europejskiej. Regulacje te przeszkadzają firmom w dostosowaniu do zmieniających się warunków konkurencji (m.in. utrudniają bardziej elastyczne regulowanie godzin pracy oraz zatrudnianie pracowników tymczasowych), tym samym podnoszą koszty oraz ryzyko pracodawców związane z zatrudnianiem pracowników.”

(„Liberalization of labour law is also needed. Many regulations of polish labour law are more restrictive than requirements of European Union. These regulations are disturbing companies in adapting to changing conditions of competition (among other things they are hindering more flexible regulations of work hours and engaging temporary emploees), so they are raising costs and risk of employers connected with engaging employees.”)

Ammon86 (talk) 16:32, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough, then. Thank you! --Checco (talk) 03:04, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no source about the "reducing of the power of trade unions", only about the "labour law reform". 83.9.243.24 (talk) 13:18, 7 December 2007 (UTC)