Talk:City upon a Hill

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This page needs a notice saying "the neutrality of this article is disputed" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.213.97.35 (talk) 14:59, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Should this be "City on a Hill", "City Set Upon a Hill", "City set upon a hill", or what? -- Someone else 22:01, 12 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Good question. People are just so weird in this community

Just as a suggestion, I think City upon a Hill might be best, since what Winthrop actually wrote was "Citty upon a Hill". With redirects all around for City on a Hill, City set upon a Hill, City set on a Hill, etc. -- Someone else 22:14, 12 Sep 2003 (UTC)

John Winthrop's City upon a Hill, 1630 Now the onely way to avoyde this shipwracke and to provide for our posterity is to followe the Counsell of Micah, to doe Justly, to love mercy, to walke humbly with our God, for this end, wee must be knitt together in this worke as one man, wee must entertaine each other in brotherly Affeccion, wee must be willing to abridge our selves of our superfluities, for the supply of others necessities, wee must uphold a familiar Commerce together in all meekenes, gentlenes, patience and liberallity, wee must delight in eache other, make others Condicions our owne rejoyce together, mourne together, labour, and suffer together, allwayes haveing before our eyes our Commission and Community in the worke, our Community as members of the same body, soe shall wee keepe the unitie of the spirit in the bond of peace, the Lord will be our God and delight to dwell among us, as his owne people and will commaund a blessing upon us in all our wayes, soe that wee shall see much more of his wisdome power goodnes and truthe then formerly wee have beene acquainted with, wee shall finde that the God of Israell is among us, when tenn of us shall be able to resist a thousand of our enemies, when hee shall make us a prayse and glory, that men shall say of succeeding plantacions: the lord make it like that of New England: for wee must Consider that wee shall be as a Citty upon a Hill, the eies of all people are uppon us; soe that if wee shall deale falsely with our god in this worke wee have undertaken and soe cause him to withdrawe his present help from us, wee shall be made a story and a byword through the world, wee shall open the mouthes of enemies to speake evill of the wayes of god and all professours for Gods sake; wee shall shame the faces of many of gods worthy servants, and cause theire prayers to be turned into Cursses upon us till wee be consumed out of the good land whether wee are going: And to shutt upp this discourse with that exhortacion of Moses that faithfull servant of the Lord in his last farewell to Israell Deut. 30. Beloved there is now sett before us life, and good, deathe and evill in that wee are Commaunded this day to love the Lord our God, and to love one another to walke in his wayes and to keepe his Commaundements and his Ordinance, and his lawes, and the Articles of our Covenant with him that wee may live and be multiplyed, and that the Lord our God may blesse us in the land whether wee goe to possesse it: But if our heartes shall turne away soe that wee will not obey, but shall be seduced and worshipp other Gods our pleasures, and proffitts, and serve them, it is propounded unto us this day, wee shall surely perishe out of the good Land whether wee passe over this vast Sea to possesse it; Therefore lett us choose life, that wee, and our Seede, may live; by obeyeing his voyce, and cleaveing to him, for hee is our life, and our prosperity.

Okay. Will do. Also, where did you get that excerpt? Would it be OK to incorporate parts of it into the article? --Alex S 22:19, 12 Sep 2003 (UTC)

That's from here. I'm sure that a 1630 text is public domain, I put it on talk just cause it wouldn't generally be considered acceptable to have the whole thing in the article.

P.S. I saw one website where this sermon was called "A Model of Christian Charity" but I don't know if that's a common name for it or not.

--- note from [cnelson]: "A Model of Christian Charity" is the actual sermon. In ap language arts, we had to read it and discussed it in relation to the US's moral superiority. In our book (The Norton anthology of american literature) it is title this.

FWIW, ten years later in 1640 Peter Bulkeley, a prominent New Englander, wrote, "We are as a city set upon a hill, in the open view of all the earth; the eyes of the world are upon us because we profess ourselves to be a people in covenant with God, and therefore not only the Lord our God, with whom we have made covenant, but heaven and earth, angels and men, that are witnesses of our profession, will cry shame upon us, if we walk contrary to the covenant which we have professed and promised to walk in." -- Someone else 22:22, 12 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Thanks. --Alex S 22:32, 12 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Glad to help. Also, I think I remember Ronald Reagan making a "City on a Hill" speech, and I think there was a filmed documentary with that title, though I think it used it ironically. -- Someone else 22:40, 12 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Do you believe that modern america could be considered a city upon a hill in winthrops view?

Winthrop's sermon is a very misinterpreted piece of literature. Sometime when I have more time I will have to rewrite this article. Winthrop never intended America to be an example for the rest of the world. If you want to know more, read Perry Miller's An Errand into the Wilderness, as well as articles debating him. If you need more help just ask. --Lord Voldemort 20:51, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

My mistake... I meant Miller's Marrow of Puritan Divinity. Sorry for the mistake. --Lord Voldemort 20:56, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It's been rewritten since you wrote that, Voldemort. It did misinterpret the statement; it now more nearly reflects his original meaning. Please discuss if you plan to revise the interpretation substantially. flux.books 21:48, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

This page really needs more background information; possibly about what else was going on in America, and Great Britain. --Cmbankester 12:34, 26 Sept 2007 (UTC)

[edit] (expletive deleted)

William Penn used the phrase too. I think this is a very biased article. 129.107.240.248 19:36, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Sources, links, facts - anything other than your own opinion? The phrase is in the bible, so it probably inspired other commentary. But there's no question this is the most cited reference to the phrase.

I deleted another vandalistic edit in the page. At the bottom it simply said 'yeahh' I believe this is in breach of policy.Tuesday, May 15 07 -Rob

[edit] editorializing?

"Of course, breaking a covenant with God has dire results (as Noah's fellow men learned the hard way)." Is this really fit for an encyclopedia? 209.6.3.46 01:46, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Stable Society

"molded an extremely stable and rigidly-structured society" I wouldn't say the Puritans were always very stable. Bradford discusses outbreaks of "wickedness" and they had many cases of bestiality along with other problems. They did everything to remain stable but eventually their society fell apart.--Krezer 01:17, 17 October 2007 (UTC)