Talk:Cirith Ungol

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle-earth, which aims to build an encyclopedic guide to J. R. R. Tolkien, his legendarium, and related topics. Please visit the project talk page for suggestions and ideas on how you can improve this and other articles. Note: Though it states in the Guide to writing better articles that generally fictional articles should be written in present tense, all Tolkien legendarium-related articles that cover in-universe material must be written in past tense. Please see Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle-earth/Standards for more information about this and other article standards.
Assessment Start This article has been rated as start-Class on the quality scale. Mid This article has been rated as mid-importance on the importance scale. Article Grading: The article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet. If appropriate, please review the article and then leave comments here to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article and what work it will need.

Actually, in the book, it says that Shelob was in Cirith Ungol before even Sauron arrived at Mordor. -- SFH 23:02, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

This page should be merged with the article Tower of Cirith Ungol

[edit] Notability tag restored again

This article does not establish the real-world significance of the subject, and does not establish the notability of the subject by reference to non-trivial coverage in multiple independent sources per WP:NOTE and WP:FICTION.

The {{notability}} tag which I added on 26 October was promptly removed without comment in this edit by IronGargoyle (talk · contribs). I reinstated the tag and tried to discuss the isisue on IronGargoyle's talk page, and the discussion closed with IronGargoyle's comment on 27th October that "I have no interests in editing on this topic in the near future due to my busy schedule".

However, in this edit on 31 October, IronGargoyle again removed the tag, without mentioning that fact in the edit summary.

If anyone wishes to claim that this article has established notability without references, please can they discuss that point here here rather than simply removing a request to improve the article? Thanks! --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:25, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

But the tags have just been removed again after the addition of a single secondary source, in a further series of edits. :( I have reinstated them, because multiple secondary sources are required, and I have also added a {{inuniverse}} tag, because there is no real-world perspective in the article. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:52, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

The History of Middle-earth, vol. V, The Lost Road and Other Writings: "The Etymologies," entry for UNG is a secondary source. IronGargoyle 23:57, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Please read the guidelines: the requirement is for reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Tolkein's son, literary executor and posthumous co-author is not an independent source. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:03, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I guess that's just where we will have to agree to disagree. IronGargoyle 00:10, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Hopefully someone else will improve the article and add more sources, thereby making the issue irrelevant. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:27, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't consider this article in any way superfluous, as there are many articles about fictional places by many authors in Wikipedia, and if Cirith Ungol should be removed, so should e.g. Tlön, Uqbar, Orbius Tertus. The sources from the primary author should also have primarity when such literary -- and in this case unquestionably culturally important -- fictional places are concerned. Cirith Ungol plays a major role in the plot of The Lord of the Rings, and as there are articles on Tolkien's languages (which do not play important roles in the published prose works, only a peripheral mood-setting as in place names and a few poems). While one might argue against Tolkien's works being 'culturally significant', I wouldn't make that argument, since the number of quotes popping up from Tolkien speak against such a notion. I think the nick-naming of Homo florensis as a 'hobbit' should be proof enough of the prevalence of Tolkien in Western culture, not to mention The Lord of the Rings as being voted many times as the most important book published in the last century. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.155.201.80 (talk) 15:46, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Interesting tidbit

"Sam's finding Frodo in Cirith Ungol by singing was inspired by a legend of Richard Lionheart". Don't have time to add this, but do a search on Google. Carcharoth 00:40, 6 November 2007 (UTC)