Talk:Circle of fifths

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Wikipedia:WikiProject Tunings, Temperaments, and Scales This article is part of the WikiProject Tunings, Temperaments, and Scales to improve Wikipedia's articles related to musical tunings, temperaments, and scales.

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[edit] no c-flat

Why is there no C-flat in the picture of the circle of fifths on this page?

--Phil Kirlin 15:43, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Probably for the same reason there is no E-sharp, A-sharp, G-sharp, etc. Having them would clutter the diagram. Probably anyone who knows what C-flat is knows that it's enharmonic to B. Merphant 05:34, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Any of the rules of spelling notes are there to make reading music easier. B-natural and C-flat sound exactly the same. They are the same tone, but there are reasons to spell it one way or the other.

  For instance,  The C Major Scale is spelled like this:
       C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C 
  There is one of each of the letters (with the last being the same as the first)

  The G-flat scale is spelled like this
       Gb-Ab-Bb-Cb-Db-Eb-F-Gb
  There is one of each of the letters (with the last being the same as the first)

Scales need one of each letter so that they will read nicely on the staff. It won't do to have a Bb and a B-natural in the same scale. It would make for difficult reading.

While C-Flat is the enharmonic equivalent to B-natural, it definitely has it's place in the circle. As you travel counter-clockwise from the top of the circle, you encounter keys with 1 flat, then 2 flats, then 3 and so on. C-flat is the key with seven flats. That is one flat for each of the seven notes A through G.

The Circle of Fifths is a wonderful tool with no exceptions. It is invaluable to any student of 12 tone music

Marcos

[edit] Alternate version

Here's an alternate version of the article:

A term used in music theory to relate the greek modes.

being a circle it can be travelled around either clockwise or counter clockwise, one direction resulting in fourths.

B E A D G C F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb (B)

(note that this is written with flats. the enharmonic sharp equivalents are just as valid)

left at an alternative page name by 147.126.46.147 at 00:31, 22 Jan 2005; archived here. Noel (talk) 14:54, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Major scale articles

Recently, I completed the list of Wikipedia articles for major keys, which include:

  • The scale (with the arpeggio notes strongly bolded, namely, 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8)
  • The key signature
  • The relative minor
  • The Circle of fifths template
  • A category, Category:Musical keys

Anything else to include in each key article?? Georgia guy 00:53, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

WHY do we need a separate article on every key? —Wahoofive (talk) 15:58, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There should be an article on every frequently used key, such as C major, D minor, etc. Someone perusing Wikipedia articles on composers is likely to wonder "What's so special about that trumpet sonata being in E-flat?" or "Is there a reason there are more violin concertos in D major than there are piano concertos in that key?" As for the less frequently used keys, such as G# minor, it would be just for the sake of completeness. Del arte 19:18, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I still don't get it. If you go to the E-flat major article and it says exactly the same thing as every other key, that doesn't help answer what's special about a concerto in E-flat. It seems to me that readers will learn much more by reading more comprehensive articles such as Key (music), Scale (music), and Key signature. —Wahoofive (talk) 20:28, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
That's the sort of thing we need to add to the article on E-flat major. User:Georgia guy has taken care of writing a lot of the repetitive verbiage, now you and I ought to fill in what's special about each key that it doesn't have in common with all the other keys. Right now, the articles on C major and B-flat major are better representatives of the potential of these articles. Del arte 20:51, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Well, good luck. I don't see much potential there myself. So some keys are easier to play in for some instruments, and occur statistically more often in some composers. Are you planning a comprehensive list of all pieces written in D major? —Wahoofive (talk) 21:56, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Thanks. Those comprehensive lists have already been compiled, and musicologists agree on some points, debate others. Del arte 17:14, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

All keys are equal. There is nothing special about E-flat major. It may be made special by context, but this is still only in relation to another key. Hyacinth 21:03, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm also skeptical about the key articles. At least so far, they look to me like repositories for trivia. Trivia collecting is fun for Wikipedia editors, but it's not helpful for our readers, who deserve systematic coverage.
For instance, I think it is of interest to know what keys Haydn liked to write symphonies in, but this information should go in an article about Haydn's symphonies, and not scattered through the various articles about keys. Likewise, the fact that violin concertos are often in D is a fact about the violin, not about D, because it follows from the structure of the violin. (There are many violin concertos in G, A, and E, too.)
As the saying goes, scholars should try to "carve nature at the joints." You put the information in a place where, juxtaposed with other information, it will give you a pattern and not be arbitrary. Opus33 05:32, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ear's perception of major keys

Does anyone have an opinion on the ear's perception of certain major keys?? For example, some keys might be percieved as happy an pleasant; others as sleepy; others as boring; etc. Georgia guy 8 July 2005 00:04 (UTC)

In my personal experience, that doesn't have to do with keys, but rather with scales and modes. Uttaddmb 00:18, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
See perfect pitch and equal temperament. Hyacinth 08:16, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sharps

Perhaps it's just me, but in the section talking about moving from C to G, my browser is showing that you move the F to F? not F#. In fact all through the article where there should be a # sign there is just a question mark.

Is this something fancy the author was trying to do that didn't work?

Someone recently changed all the "#" signs to unicode sharp signs. I think this is in keeping with some Wikipedia style guide, but it seems to be messing with your browser. Tymoczko 21:56, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree. The flat signs do not show up either on my computer. I get these little boxes (like when your computer does not support a certain language format) where the symbols should be. Dachshund2k3 23:55, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I updated the article to make use of the {{music}} template. This should improve display of Unicode sharps and flats. See Template:Music for details.--Dbolton 02:45, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chromatically-altered Circle of Fifths

Has anybody ever heard of this term? I was taught this concept in a 20th-century harmony class at University, and it specifically focused on the music of Alexander Scriabin. Basically, it's a progression that follows an "altered" circle-of-fifths passage, usually by using a bV-of-something (i.e. A-Db-G-C). I found it very fascinating, as it turns out to be a defining feature of MUCH of Scriabin's music (piano-music especially), and has helped me on MANY occassions to make sense of much of his music (the "middle" period-music, for the most part). Is there another name for this type of progression? Should it be included in this article? thoughts? --Crabbyass 05:27, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Example for an easy to use table

Look in the Categorie for more Informations...

used for German Wikibooks (Gitarre)

[edit] Layman's terms

Not only is the phrase "layman's terms" kind of condescending, but it's hilarious that that section includes this passage:

The frequencies of two notes that are a perfect fifth apart differ by a ratio of approximately 3:2 = 1.5. A ratio of exactly 1.5 sounds best, and this explains why a perfect fifth sounds consonant, though for mathematical reasons it is not possible to get the circle of fifths to 'join up' (i.e. return to the original pitch after going round the circle) unless a close approximation to a perfect fifth is used, namely 2 to the power 7/12 = 1.498.

Way to simplify it for the average person!! Anyone would understand the circle of fifths after reading that. —Wahoofive (talk) 02:51, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I just tried to improve this section a little. It still reads awkwardly though. Pfly (talk) 07:25, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
And, for what it's worth, the original addition of the "In Layman's Terms" section can be seen here. Looks like someone was just trying to explain what a fifth is. Pfly (talk) 07:31, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unprintables

01-June-2007: Some of the most unprintable characters are the unicodes for sharps/flats: they have been reverted to '#'/'b' several times over the past year in other music-key articles. For more precise sharp/flat symbols, the superscripted pound/bee characters could be used (see below: Symbols for sharps/flats). However, there is no need to persecute '#'/'b' since they work well for all 12 notes, even "Eb"/"Ab", and more importantly, they create chords/notes that are searchable by search-engines. Guitar players have complete sets of chord notations that are easy to write, read, and are SEARCHABLE by search-engines: for example, look at these brilliant notations for D-sharp diminished, minor/major, 7th chords: D#dim D#sus D#sus4 D#m D#m7 D#maj D#maj7. There is little need for the obsession over unicode sharp/flat symbols. Although music-miming computer languages have become trendy (such as C# coding, F# coding and Db), the notes/chords are still searchable within music articles (hunting G#, Bb, C#, Eb, etc.). Try to avoid those get-a-life unicode characters for sharps/flats; they just aren't needed in the modern age. -Wikid77 10:00, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Symbols for sharps/flats

01-June-2007: Over the past 2 years, the unprintable sharp/flat unicodes have been reverted in articles to use simple # / b; however, superscripted codes seem more accurate and universal. For more precise coding, that shows on most PC screens, use superscripts:

  • For flats (b), use "<sup>b</sup>"
  • For sharp (#), use "<sup>#</sup>"
  • Double-sharp, use "<sup>##</sup>"
  • Double-flats, use "<sup>bb</sup>"

Results: F#, C#, Bb, Eb, C##, Gbb. In general, the simple "# / b" characters are close enough, such as F# or Bb, especially considering the tedious coding of superscript expressions. However, because Wiki articles feed other sources, worldwide, avoid unicodes for sharp/flat or use words (such as: F-sharp, A-flat or C-natural). The more precise superscripted forms support music elitists as well as the vast general public on an amazing variety of PCs or Wifi Internet devices. -Wikid77 10:00, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

In general good, except:
(1) double-sharps don't look like that
(2) this discussion would be better placed at Wikipedia:Manual of style (music)
—Wahoofive (talk) 20:46, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Problem

Why does this article have absoloutly nothing on how to use the Circle of Fiths. After reading it over it says (much like many of Wikipedia's music theory articles) that this is what X is in several different ways, while avoiding any mention of how to actually use it, or any mention of ways it has been used with given examples.

Someone fix this, please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.68.218.80 (talk) 05:07, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

It does say: "Tonal music often modulates by moving between adjacent scales on the circle of fifths." And goes on to describe why modulation is easy between steps of the circle. It follows you could use it for modulation purposes. There could be something about secondary dominants I suppose. But is the circle of fifths all that useful for composing music? I always thought of it as a mainly theory-oriented way of showing scale and key relations. Pfly (talk) 05:35, 11 April 2008 (UTC)