Talk:Cindy Sheehan/Archive 1

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Contents

Anti-Semitism

If there's a way to put in the fact that Cindy Sheehan is an anti-semite, and believes that Mossad (!) was actually behind the 9/11 attacks without getting the NPOV folks in a knot, that would be great

Were you planning to find some evidence to support this claim or just going to slip an unsubstantiated claim off the wing-nut blogosphere in the hope it was true?--Gorgonzilla 03:04, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

If there's a way to calumniate Cindy Sheehan, let's do it.

ABC news Israel email

The following was sent to ABC via email:

Am I emotional? Yes, my first born was murdered. Am I angry? Yes, he was killed for lies and for a PNAC Neo-Con agenda to benefit Israel. My son joined the Army to protect America, not Israel.

ABC confirms this

The fact that Cindy Sheehan sent a letter to ABC is not in dispute; the contents are in dispute. The link above (an August 14, 2005 blog entry by Rich Lowry at National Review) does not say that ABC confirmed the exact contents. An August 16, 2005 report by Stephen Spruiell at National Review says ABC has not found the original, and is still looking for it.

Cindy says her e-mail was altered.

Another "big deal" today was the lie that I had said that Casey died for Israel. I never said that, I never wrote that. I had supposedly said it in a letter that I wrote to Ted Koppel's producer in March. I wrote the letter because I was upset at the way Ted treated me when I appeared at a Nightline Town Hall meeting in January right after the inauguration. I felt that Ted had totally disrespected me. I wrote the letter to Ted Bettag and cc'd a copy to the person who gave me Ted's address. I believe he (the person who gave me the address) changed the email and sent it out to capitalize on my new found notoriety by promoting his own agenda. Enough about that.


neo nazi support

Prominent American Neo-Nazi leader David Duke has also come out in strong support for Cindy Sheehan. In his most recent weblog he says

"Courageously she has gone to Texas near the ranch of President Bush and braved the elements and a hostile Jewish supremacist media to demand a meeting with him and a good explanation why her son and other’s sons and daughters must die and be disfigured in a war for Israel rather than for America.

Recently, she had the courage to state the obvious that her son signed up in the military to protect America not to die for Israel."

I've removed this link. Posting it is not-at-all subtle smear/POV. Duke is not writing in support of Sheehan, but using right-wing smears of her statements to bolster his anti-Semitic ravings. Yes, Sheehan has criticized the neoconservatives, who are by no means exclusively Jewish. Yes, she has called for Israel to get out of Palestine, which is NOT the same as the poisonous anti-Semitism Duke spouts. Shall we link to every crackpot who is for or against Sheehan? From a look at the current list, we seem to be headed in that direction -- Eleemosynary.

Israel / Anti Semitism Issues

Removed most to Talk:Cindy Sheehan/Archive 1



Drudge

Can we really quote Drudge?

He's a well-known conservative that is known for spinning all anti-Bush quotes to make the other side look bad; in this case, making Cindy look like a "flip-flopper".

Somebody obviously did (not me); I just edited the quote to make it NPOV, in particular removing the phrsae "flip-flopper" which even Druudge didn't use. However, Drudge usually tries to make himself part of any story that damages "the other side".. I think it's clear in this case that he's trying to spin it his way and I see no harm to the truth in making this apparent.--CSTAR 03:06, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
The first quote should come from Mrs. Sheehan herself. NPOV should defer to the original subject, no? Sympleko (Συμπλεκω) 16:53, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Fine with me. I'm just editing to balance a concerted effort among some anon editors to only include Drudge's distorted quoting of Sheehan. Whether or not Drudge is quoted is only of minor concern to me at least. --CSTAR 16:57, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

The picture

Geeh that picture could like like anybody's family reunion. Is that really G.W. Bush somewhere in there? This picture is useless, but more to the point it probably is a copyright violation since it appears to be pilfered from the web.--CSTAR 17:09, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Exactly, removed. --ThomasK 05:04, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

Media Matters has an extensive and very critical report on Drudge's false claims, as well as Fox News's recycling of them: http://mediamatters.org/items/200508100009 -BC

3RR violation

Anon user:70.33.80.97 has apparently violated the Wikipedia 3 revert rule [[1]] and should be blocked. As an admin I can do this, but will refrain from doing this in good faith, since I have edited the article (and the WP rules on this are very byzantine). If this antisocial behavior continues, I urge other admins to block this user.--CSTAR 17:49, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Minor Edits

Interesting article. I have taken liberty to move some of the sections into chronological order, format some items, correct some spelling and change some things to correct some gramatical errors. We need to find references to credible news sources for some of the sections. I will devote some time to look for those later. Kgrr 21:06, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Removal of important events

I strongly disagree with the removal of important events in the course of this story from this article (because it might offend your political views). Please restore the following three sections. Kgrr 16:18, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

President George W. Bush News Conference

- On 11 August 2005 President George W. Bush, instead of having Cindy Sheehan arrested, he spoke to reporters at his ranch in Crawford, TX and said the following: - - :"I sympathize with Mrs. Sheehan," Bush said. "She feels strongly about her position, and she has every right in the world to say what she believes. This is America. She has a right to her position, and I thought long and hard about her position. I've heard her position from others, which is: Get out of Iraq now. And it would be a mistake for the security of this country and the ability to lay the foundations for peace in the long run if we were to do so." [2] -

The entire Bush quote you include above is in the article, the last time I checked. The only item that is deleted is the phrase instead of having Cindy Sheehan arrested. There are a lot of "potential occurrences" that can be placed in there, sort of like the potential men in the fictional Wyman's doorway (Quine). We could for instance say something such as On 11 August 2005 President George W. Bush, instead of taking his chainsaw and going on a rampage cutting off the heads of protestors, spoke to reporters.....--CSTAR 16:32, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

==Threat of Arrest== + - On 9 August 2005, David Swanson, a member of the progressive web community Daily Kos, broke the story and confirmed via telephone with Cindy Sheehan that the police had threatened to arrest all protesters on site on Thursday, August 11th, when Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice will be at the president's nearby ranch. [3] + - + ==Congress== + - At least sixteen congressmen signed a letter on 9 August 2005 requesting that Bush meet with Sheehan and the other relatives of fallen soldiers. The congressmen call on Bush to ensure that no one will be arrested for having a peaceful demonstration. + - + - :"Since the loss of her son, Ms. Sheehan and other families have been committed to helping family members of other soldiers who have been lost in Iraq... For several days now, she has been waiting outside your ranch, hoping to meet with you about the loss of her son and the failure to discover weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Ms. Sheehan has indicated that she is planning to continue her vigil for the entirety of your vacation at your Crawford complex if necessary." + - + - Additional congressmen have signed the letter that reminds the president of the citizens right to petition the government. + - + - Source: Letter to Bush at RawStory.com + -

Open Letter to Mr Bush

I believe this open letter from Mrs. Sheehan to President Bush is also significant. However, I am afraid that the revisionist CSTAR will remove a reference to it. How should I proceed?? Kgrr 16:27, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Cindy Sheehan Thu Aug 11, 4:56 PM ET

This is George Bush’s accountability moment. That’s why I’m here. The mainstream media aren’t holding him accountable. Neither is Congress. So I’m not leaving Crawford until he’s held accountable. It’s ironic, given the attacks leveled at me recently, how some in the media are so quick to scrutinize -- and distort -- the words and actions of a grieving mother but not the words and actions of the president of the United States. ADVERTISEMENT

But now it’s time for him to level with me and with the American people. I think that’s why there’s been such an outpouring of support. This is giving the 61 percent of Americans who feel that the war is wrong something to do -- something that allows their voices to be heard. It’s a way for them to stand up and show that they DO want our troops home, and that they know this war IS a mistake… a mistake they want to see corrected. It’s too late to bring back the people who are already dead, but there are tens of thousands of people still in harm’s way.

There is too much at stake to worry about our own egos. When my son was killed, I had to face the fact that I was somehow also responsible for what happened. Every American that allows this to continue has, to some extent, blood on their hands. Some of us have a little bit, and some of us are soaked in it.

People have asked what it is I want to say to President Bush. Well, my message is a simple one. He’s said that my son -- and the other children we’ve lost -- died for a noble cause. I want to find out what that noble cause is. And I want to ask him: “If it’s such a noble cause, have you asked your daughters to enlist? Have you encouraged them to go take the place of soldiers who are on their third tour of duty?” I also want him to stop using my son’s name to justify the war. The idea that we have to “complete the mission” in Iraq to honor Casey’s sacrifice is, to me, a sacrilege to my son’s name. Besides, does the president any longer even know what “the mission” really is over there?

Casey knew that the war was wrong from the beginning. But he felt it was his duty to go, that his buddies were going, and that he had no choice. The people who send our young, honorable, brave soldiers to die in this war, have no skin in the game. They don’t have any loved ones in harm’s way. As for people like O’Reilly and Hannity and Michelle Malkin and Rush Limbaugh and all the others who are attacking me and parroting the administration line that we must complete the mission there -- they don’t have one thing at stake. They don’t suffer through sleepless nights worrying about their loved ones

Before this all started, I used to think that one person couldn’t make a difference... but now I see that one person who has the backing and support of millions of people can make a huge difference.

That’s why I’m going to be out here until one of three things happens: It’s August 31st and the president’s vacation ends and he leaves Crawford. They take me away in a squad car. Or he finally agrees to speak with me.

If he does, he’d better be prepared for me to hold his feet to the fire. If he starts talking about freedom and democracy -- or about how the war in Iraq is protecting America -- I’m not going to let him get away with it.

Like I said, this is George Bush’s accountability moment. [4]

Response to removal of events

Whoa, revisionist? Please, sir: (primo) I don't think you know what side I'm on. (secondo) I made the deletions to make the article more to the point and useful as a source of information. I will not delete any reference that is legitimately connected to the story and certainly not the one you cite above. I deleted the section on the threat of arrest, because as far as I know, no arrest occurred on the day it was predicted. --CSTAR 16:48, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

CSTAR, but the threat of arrest of her and other protesters was real. In the town I live in, anti-war protesters are regularly arrested. It's really intimidating. Bush's comments to the press do state that he had to think about the proper response to her protest. He had to think a long time to conclude that she had the right to her opinion. This is a break from his previous reactions of creating "free speech zones" (portable prisons) where people got to say what they wanted but in cages miles away from the event that is being protested. It is important to state that no arrest occurred as predicted. Removing this series of events is definitelyrevisionism in my mind.

Also, I believe your new structure of separating her activism from the Bush response rather than tracking the events in a cronological order for now helps to disperse the exchange between the Sheehan and Bush camps. I don't think this organization helps anyone piece together the story. Kgrr 17:02, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Well I put back in the threat of arrest (in a modified form, suitable to the context in which I placed it). However, I think one should also try to present the article in a dispassionate form here on WP, however much sympathy one may feel for Ms Sheehan. If you think chronolgical order is important, start a section called "Chronology".--CSTAR 17:12, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

CSTAR, I will take your suggestion to open a section called Chronology. This will separate more long-term sections from the day-to-day evolution of this story. Kgrr 19:33, 12 August 2005 (UTC)~

Highly political subject

This article is a perfect example of the uselessness of Wikipedia. I mean, don't you all see it? This topic is going on as we speak. People from both sides edit the article coloring it to their particular point of view. At the very least this article should have a permanent POV warning tag attached to it.

Re: uselessness of Wikipedia. That's easy to fix. Don't read it. Try the creationist [5] wiki instead. Yo might like the stuff on Noah's ark. --CSTAR 20:37, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
So, fearless anonymous user, what should be done with notable contentious topics? Just not cover them? Have a blank article with only a title? Personally, I find it very useful to have Wikipedia as a central collection of known facts and links for extremeely current events. Witness the 2005_london_attacks' up-to-the second (at times) coverage, as well as the 2004_Indian_Ocean_earthquake coverage, which had the best summary of available information earlier than any other news source that I could find. But, of course, as the current tag states, this is coverage of a "current event", and the information may be either stale, innaccurate, or vague. That's enough of a warning for me. --NightMonkey 21:56, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

There is a difference between an event like the London attacks and the tsunami which are fairly void of politics to this event which is nothing more than a well-executed political stunt. Surely you would acknowledge that?

well-executed political stunt. Nice phrase. What else could we apply it to? --CSTAR 23:33, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
It might be a "well-executed political stunt." But, that's besides the point. It's a noteable event, based on major media coverage, public debate, reaction from public figures (the President, Congressmen, etc.), reaction from other veteran families, influence on public opinion polls, etc. Your argument about how this article shows how "useless" Wikipedia is in covering political events is without basis. Of course partisan edits occour (often from anonymous IPs...), even on "non-political" articles, but, usually, they are quickly corrected. If you see something that's factually wrong, non-noteable, heavily biased in style, or other problems covered by Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and have good references, just join in! Wikis are different in that it is a many-to-many medium - the tools for you to fix things are all available to you. And register, please, before editing. :) --NightMonkey 00:49, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

Good work, everyone

This seems like a good and factual article. I usually ignore the more controversial and current event topics on Wikipedia, but this does look pretty good. Congradulations to all the good-faith editors. JesseW 21:52, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

It depends on what state you happen to catch it in. It's pretty fluid right now.

Critics

Why was the critics section removed? The fact that there are critics is a fact, uncontroversial, and if stated as and assertion "there are critics, these are the critics and this is what they said" has little bearing on any argument either way.--CSTAR 21:55, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Oh, I already reverted it. I guess someone didn't want to hear any criticism.

I think that the criticism is actually more important than the protest. At the end of the day Sheehan is gaining tremendously from the sympathy she receives as the target of the right wing smear machine at full throttle. I strongly suspect that if Rove was not preoccupied with other issues he would be desperately telling the VRWC to lay off as it is ridiculously counterproductive. --Gorgonzilla 04:09, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Including comments from partisan organizations?

Is it just me or does it seem out of place to include various comments from partisan organizations? What do they have to do with Cindy Sheehan besides provide another soapbox for their POV?

The same argument would apply to delete Drudge's (out of context) quotes, wouldn't it? that is
What do his comments have to do with Cindy Sheehan besides provide another soapbox for his POV?

--CSTAR 23:44, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure what quotes you are referring to. The letter from her family is a material fact. I don't think Drudge has added any OPINION about this event such as you get from moveon.org.

The partisan organizations Sheehan belongs to are also material facts as are the political activities associated with Sheehan's protest. --CSTAR 00:01, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Although Matt Drudge champions himself as an independent populist, free from the influences of corporations, advertisers, and editors, he is aligned himself with many right-winged pundits - Ann Coulter, Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, Michael Savage, Sean Hannity. He claims to be fair and balanced ... just like Fox News. It's well known that he's reckless or careless for publishing erroneous rightwing smears. In fact he's been sued over it. I don't think he's a reliable source. In this article it's important to expose Drudge's disinformation with the appropriate evidence. Kgrr 00:52, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
The correct approach is to read the material, read the response and correct the false Drudge spin. According to Sheehan the aunt who wrote the letter never knew Cassey and she has the support of Cassey's father and three sibblings. So the claim of being attacked by the father's family is essentially a complete misrepresentation. But it is still an important part of the story because the issue being highlighted here is how Bush really treats vets and their families. If they challenge Bush he sicks Drudge onto them. -Unsigned by Gorgonzilla
Drudge has no credibility. I don't believe he deserves the term 'reporter' or 'journalist' near his name. His website is edited rapidly, and often outright falsehoods and rumors are put forth as 'flashes' and then quickly edited or expunged when they are proven untrue. An example would be in this story, his original title for his 'flash' on the email from Cindy's sister-in-law was "FAMILY OF FALLEN SOLDIER PLEADS: PLEASE STOP, CINDY!" Presumably he was told that it was a bit of a stretch to call an anonymous email allegedly from one aunt a 'family', so he changed it to "FAMILY OF BUSH PROTEST MOM PLEADS: PLEASE STOP...". He also edited the flash story to remove the aunt's misspelled last name without making any notation of that editing. There are other examples, but the point is that Drudge has less credibility and accountability than the average blogger and should be treated primarily as a third party opinion and POV. In this case, 'Cherie Quarterolo' hasn't even confirmed this anonymous email by way of even an on-the-record interview with anyone, the only thing that seems to be confirmed is that Cindy Sheehan did not deny that she had a sister-in-law named Cherie Quarterolo, and she indicated that they were not really a big part of Casey's life; she did not confirm that she has heard any criticism from them. -Kwh 10:31, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

Drudge is a pathetic waste of space, a vicious liar and attack dog for the GOP. But the fact that his is attacking Sheehan, almost certainly on Rove's orders or the orders of his minions IS important, it demonstrates how Bush really treats the famillies of the soldiers killed in his wars.--Gorgonzilla 11:28, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

24.128.88.42 US UNITED STATES, MAINE, KITTERY, COMCAST CABLE COMMUNICATIONS HOLDINGS INC - get an ID before deleting stuff Kgrr 01:01, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

What the fuck could you possibly be talking about? (anonymous edit by 24.128.88.42 (talk · contribs))

details on the IP address of an anonymous vandal Kgrr 12:11, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Use of Copyrighted Photo

The photo sheehan.jpg is copyrighted as follows:

© 2000-2002 North Carolina Independent Media Center. Unless otherwise stated by the author, all content is free for non-commercial reuse, reprint, and rebroadcast, on the net and elsewhere. Opinions are those of the contributors and are not necessarily endorsed by the NC IMC

It cannot be used according to the upload policy which states:

Please do not upload files under a "non-commercial use only" or "copyrighted, used by permission" licence. Such files will be deleted Kgrr 12:14, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Exactly how is it possible for a photo taken after her son was killed in the invasion of Iraq be (c) 2000-2002?--Gorgonzilla 15:58, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Kgrr - as I'm sure you may have noticed, this is one of many pictures posted in comments on that IndyMedia site. Indymedia can only claim copyright on that which is not contributed by other authors. For all you know, the author or a friend thereof uploaded the picture to en.wiki with the intention that it be distributed as PD. The author of the picture's email address is right there, jeff@paterson.net. If you want to be helpful on WP, you can:
  1. put {{copyvio}} on the image and add it to WP:CP
  2. send a form letter to Mr. Paterson asking if he gives permission under GFDL or PD.
  3. If so or not, document the permission or lack thereof.

In the end, that's a better result for Wikipedia than just deleting the content. -Kwh 12:31, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

KWH - I will make an effort to e-mail Jeff Patterson and ask him about the copyright. Kgrr 12:43, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Criticism Section

LOL!! Look at what the criticisms section has changed to. Right-wing smear? Oh brother.

How laughable it is with Gorgonzilla's profile that he would engage in childish POV vandalism. (anonymous comment left by 24.128.88.42 (talk · contribs))

Your arguments would carry more weight if you refrained from personal attacks against other editors. Past comments like "Some moron got rid of the POV tag"[6] and your current comments about "laughable" items and "childish" editors do not appear to assume good faith, Please keep discussions civil. Eclipsed 12:35, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
The only critic listed by name in the section is Drudge. The other criticisms are unsourced and come ENTIRELY from the right wing blogosphere. Even Bill O'Rielly and Limbaugh have been carefull to avoid attacking Sheehan directly. Why don't we just label the section 'Criticism by Drudge'? --Gorgonzilla 12:54, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Although at least one critic[7] argues that O'Rielly did personally attack Sheehan. Eclipsed 12:58, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Even so O'Rielly and Drudge are hardly disinterested critics. They are both frequently accused of being prime movers of the Right Wing Smear machine. The critics section should note the partisan nature of the criticism. It should probably also include Malkin's claim that Sheehan is an extreeme lefty (or something like that she is not very cogent)--Gorgonzilla 13:05, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
What's laughable to me is people who can't work on editing an encyclopedia without wearing their political opinions on their sleeve, and bringing in the same-old-same-old "little end vs. big end" debates into every single article. I agree that Gorgonzilla's edit is wanting on POV, but it did add content to the article. If it peeves you off, find a way to save the content and remove the POV. Blogs are for opinionated debate. We are editing an encyclopedia here, so propose a different edit. -Kwh 13:07, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
The point here in case the anon poster missed it is that the criticism of Sheehan is causing far more damage to the WH than to Sheehan, even though it mostly comes from a tiny number of partisan bloggers rather than the WH itself. I re-edited the piece to name the pundits which is better from the NPOV. I also edited the 'flip-flop' charge which made no sense. --Gorgonzilla 13:26, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Actually as I tried to source the criticism it all seems to point back to Drudge, should this simply be 'Criticism by Drudge?'.--Gorgonzilla 13:42, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
I'd suggest just 'Criticism' for now. That there is criticism is a fact, but who/what is the "main source" of criticism is, currently, a theory. Eclipsed 13:51, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
O'Reilly cites Drudge as the source. Of course Drudge does not quote his own sources so even though most of the criticism traces back through Drudge... I edited the comments by O'Reilly to make them more NPOV, originals were straight from left wing wing-nut sites.--Gorgonzilla 14:20, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Err why is it necessary to repeat the 'far left elements' claim by O'Reilly? On 9 August 2005 Bill O'Reilly on his Fox News television show criticized Sheehan as a victim of "far left elements" who are exploiting her for their own purposes. [8] The next day O'Reilly criticized Sheehan for refusing to appear on his show and claims that Sheehan is being exploited by "far left elements".

Sources

The critics need to have sources that are showing that they are actual criticising Sheehan, rather than people in general. Right now, the first paragraph in this section does not have sources for any of those listed. See below:

"Sheehan has been criticized by Matt Drudge, Michelle Malkin, Bill O'Reilly, Charles Johnson of Little Green Footballs, Christopher Hitchens, one of Casey's paternal aunts, and a few parents of other soldiers killed in Iraq."

Primarily for my reference, here is the definition from Merriam-Webster...

"1 a : one who expresses a reasoned opinion on any matter especially involving a judgment of its value, truth, righteousness, beauty, or technique b : one who engages often professionally in the analysis, evaluation, or appreciation of works of art or artistic performances 2 : one given to harsh or captious judgment"[9]

It seems to me that 1.a is the definition to use, and that in defining a person as a critic, it makes sense to find a source that shows this. The names of people should not be included until that evidence is found. Americanus 12:22, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

This article may not conform to the neutral point of view policy

If you want to discuss POV .. let's do it here. Kgrr 12:39, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

It seems the biggest problem is the number of edits going on with this article currently. One minute it might seem fairly neutral, and the next minute all sorts of POV additions have been made. POV destroyer 00:51, 14 August 2005 (UTC)


700 at Camp

"CINDY SHEEHAN: We had over 700 people come through our camp yesterday, and we are expecting thousands this weekend. It is just so incredibly amazing to me. I think people in America just needed a way to stand up and have their voices count. And for some reason, this is a way for them to do it." [10]

"Before we get to the less than negative things that are happening out at Camp Casey and in the world at large today, over 700 people showed up at the Camp today." [11]

There is plenty of proof ... and plenty of revisionists. You might argue that the actual number reported is far less and simply remove a line. Quote your "official" right-wing news source for your numbers instead of deleting facts as reported from Crawford, TX. There may be a reason why the commercial media may not want the real numbers out.

I think that it's legitimate to include a claim as fact if there is no competing claim of equal or greater veracity. 705 is put forth as an 'official count' by the organizers so I would say unless someone else is there counting heads (and some blogger saying "I drove by and I saw like 100 people" doesn't cut it) it should stand. But I would point out something interesting; according to Wikipedia, the 2000 Census population of Crawford, Texas is 705. To me that seems an odd coincidence, and makes me wonder if someone said "gee, we've doubled the population of this town" and the figure might have come out of that. Just speculation. -Kwh 13:46, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

I don't like this POV in the article: "12 August 2005 Camp Casey protest draws hundreds of supporters, with a constant presence of just over 100.[24][25][26]." I gave you three references for the fact that there are over 700 protesters there. Please read them. In addition there are about 100 pro-bush protesters there. I gave you a reference for the count of the support our troops camp as well. (This may be the 100 you are referring to). Please restore the cronology with the correct numbers. Kgrr 18:37, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

I listened to Sheehan on "Democracy Now" and it was my impression that her statement meant that over the course of the day 700 people had come through (maybe spending an hour or two at a time), not that there were that many people based at the camp. People are drifting in from all around the country, but most don't have the committment that Sheehan has to sticking it out day and night by the side of the road. My reading of the articles (I read a lot of them from different sources) was that the permanent presence was just over 100 but that hundreds of people came in and out of the camp. If you've got the sources and they're clear about this, then you can feel free to change it back. Whatever appears in the article should be absolutely accurate and factual. Don't assume the edit lowering the crowd estimate was due to POV, as I'm the one who made it and doesn't have anything to do with my personal POV, just making sure (per Wikipedia principles) that the numbers of permanent/temporary visitors to Camp Casey are stated factually. Badagnani 22:48, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

The numbers are stated factually. I watch Democracy on channel 9415. I have two satellite dishes on my house... so what. Let's say you had a concert or convention, you count the people attending during the day, not the people overnighting there. All three articles quote over 700 people there. Let's stick to the facts instead of your POV. Kgrr 23:34, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you on this; if it's made clear that not all the folks are overnighting there (which I had assumed from the way the previous version was worded) then the 700 figure should be used, though all of the three sources given are anti-war ones and have their own POV. I think I had changed 700 to "hundreds" because one of the "mainstream" media sources (not cited by you) gave a figure of 500. I'd like to ask if you might consider kindly laying off the POV insinuations about my edits; you don't know what my POV is and it doesn't come across as very nice. I've listened to Amy every day for years (even though that doesn't matter) ;-) Badagnani 00:18, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

'Cherie Quarterolo' Letter

The Cherie Quarterolo letter should be properly sourced to Melanie Morgan, apparently a co-host of a conservative radio drive-time show on KSFO in San Francisco (or conservative co-host of a radio drive-time show, or co-host of a drive-time show on the conservative KSFO). Perhaps Drudge was cc:ed on the email. She claims to have verified the source of this email, though no proof is given but another alleged email. There's also other opinion that states that none of the related people mentioned in Casey's obituary from the LA Times actually signed their names to the email.

All in all, it sounds like it can be averred that Cheri[e] Quarterolo, Pat Sheehan's sister, is critical of Cindy, and claims to speak for the entire Sheehan family. -Kwh

Rewriting Chronology

I would dearly love to pitch the whole Chronology heading and rewrite. There's no reason why an encyclopedia needs to include a dramatic blow-by-blow of every letter written and press conference held day-by-day. The news should be on WikiNews, the encyclopedia should be written with historical perspective. Below is my rewrite, keeping only what I see as relevant in the Chronology; please help me edit it and flesh it out:

KWH Chronology Rewrite

On 4 April 2004 Casey Sheehan was killed in an ambush in Sadr City, a division of Baghdad. He volunteered for a mission to rescue some fellow soldiers trapped in a firefight, although as a Specialist Humvee Mechanic, he was not obligated to.[12] This needs to be fleshed out just a little with how it happened.

On June 18, 2004, two months after Casey's death, Sheehan was among grieving military family members who met with US President George W. Bush at Fort Lewis, near Seattle, Washington. [13] Sheehan later claimed that Bush showed disrespect in this meeting by treating it as if it were a "party" and by referring to her as "Mom", and that she was hustled out of his presence without the ability to voice her concerns about the war.

On December 22, 2004, Cindy Sheehan wrote a critical letter to the editors of Time Magazine in response to their choice of George W. Bush for "Man of the Year"[14]

On March 19, 2005, Cindy Sheehan spoke to three thousand people who converged on Fayetteville, North Carolina to mark two years of war and occupation in Iraq. [15]

On August 4, 2005, President Bush began a planned five-week vacation at his Prairie Chapel Ranch in Crawford, Texas. According to Sheehan, she decided to go to the ranch at this time to personally confront the President and demand a second meeting to voice her concerns over the original reasons for the War in Iraq, and also to set a timeline when other troops would come home from Iraq.

Sheehan and a number of supporters arrived in Crawford in buses and cars, setting up a roadside camp directly outside the President's ranch, named "Camp Casey", as well as coordinating with the local Crawford Peace House.

On August 6, 2005, the White House sent National security adviser Stephen Hadley and deputy White House chief of staff Joe Hagin to meet Cindy Sheehan. She said... what did Cindy say about this meeting?

At least sixteen congressmen signed a letter on 9 August 2005 asking that Bush meet with Sheehan and the other relatives of fallen soldiers, as well as calling on Bush to ensure that no one will be arrested for having a peaceful demonstration.[16]

A rumor circulated around "Camp Casey" that on 10 August 2005, Sheehan and her companions would be arrested as a threat to national security, owing to the visit of Condoleezza Rice and Donald Rumsfeld to the President's Ranch on 11 August 2005.[17] Ultimately, however, no arrest was made.[18]

-Kwh 14:40, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

maybe also mention founding of Gold Star Families for Peace organization. (January ??, 2005)[19]. Eclipsed 15:05, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
The problem that I have with thinning down the cronology so soon (not to say it won't happen later) is that small events that happen may seem insignificant at first become important pieces of the puzzle later. I vote not to do this at the moment. If need be, we could create a separate page that captures the progress on the story Cindy Sheehan Timeline and one that reflects the more static article Cindy Sheehan. This has been done with Valerie Plame and Plame scandal timeline. Kgrr 16:06, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
A chronology is more meaningful to The Plame Affair since the relative timing of events, and especially when different people did what, is meaningful to the legalities of what is happening in that case. And I agree, in the case of the Plame affair, that there were certain small details that took on great significance in light of later revelations. I don't think so in this case; it's simply bad writing style to fall back on a chronology as the bare minimum way to represent this info. But now that I look at Plame affair I see that it suffers from similar problems; it's way overweight and the style is tone-deaf.
Anyways, I wasn't asking for a vote, I was asking for help fleshing out an edit. Can you say what particular omission you are worried about in my edit above and possibly edit it back in? I would say that if your only concern is that every event be kept for possible future significance, then the chronology can be copied to the Talk page as a means of "keeping notes". -Kwh 17:26, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

Mission statement

I reverted an edit that supposedly included the "mission statement" of GSFP. That wasn't the mission statement of that organization as can be seen from its website at the link www.gsfp.org ----CSTAR 16:38, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Return of the vandals

The following anonymous ip's are suspected of vandalism: Eclipsed 03:00, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

70.176.183.170 (talk · contribs) (is this the pages first Hitler reference?[20])
24.18.128.52 (talk · contribs) ( 4+ reverts )
207.136.9.106 (talk · contribs)
68.23.100.34 (talk · contribs)
71.112.175.247 (talk · contribs)
see Wikipedia:Vandalism_in_progress#Cindy_Sheehan

Quotes

When you make a "Quotes" section, aren't you usually supposed to pick a few of the best ones instead of about 50 of them (comprising almost the entire text of a speech)? Maybe I'm wrong about this. Badagnani 02:49, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

-- Good point. List shortened. TexasDawg 03:21, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the quotes are too long to read. Some of the quotes all come from the same sources. Simply put the links into the Links section and label something like Text of Speech to whoever. Americanus 03:31, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
I shortened the Quotes section down to just a few short quotes; I put the links to the transcripts of the speeches and articles containing the lengthier quotes in the Links section. When I went to post this edit, the page had been locked. TexasDawg 03:55, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
I think there's way too many there. If someone really loves 'em, send 'em over to wikiquote and use {{wikiquote}}. This article needs to get back on track, the use of headings and subheadings doesn't conform to any outline logic and starts to look like Borges' Chinese Encyclopedia. -Kwh 05:16, August 14, 2005 (UTC)
So... remove the whole quote section from this article, branch it to wikiquote where it can be worked on separately. Then go on with narrative here, and only include quotes when relevant and notable. Thus: Eclipsed 05:28, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
pick the four or five quotes that really set Cindy Sheehan apart from others saying the same kinds of things for the article. Here are the three that I think are keepers:
"My first born was killed violently for a neo-con agenda that only benefits a very chosen few in this world."
"You tell me the truth. You tell me that my son died for oil. You tell me that my son died to make your friends rich. You tell me my son died to spread the cancer of Pax Americana, imperialism in the Middle East. You tell me that, you don't tell me my son died for freedom and democracy."
(even this one is too long)
"Why does Terri Schiavo deserve to live more than my son, Spc. Casey Austin Sheehan?"
These need to be the short and sweet quotes that define Cindy Sheehan.Kgrr 16:18, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Let's move the quote discussion to the Cindy_Sheehan page on wikiquote.Eclipsed 17:42, 14 August 2005 (UTC)


While making an edit, Badagnani said, "Italicize indented quotes. btw this was a pain. If you're going to revise so extensively, at least spend enough time here to know how it's done." My feeling exactly. Italicizing indented quotes is unnecessary and it is poetic that it took you so long. From the Manual of style "There is normally no need to put quotations in italics unless the material would otherwise call for italics (emphasis, use of non-English words, etc.)." I hate having to waste my time correcting italics-happy editors. Why don't you be a dear and clean up your mistake.Pencil Pusher 20:54, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

  • You're right--I'm wrong. I apologize for the misinformed (and thus rude) comment and will clean up. Whatever the choice (italics or none) it should be consistent throughout the article, which it was not. Obviously after this public tongue lashing I'll never forget this element of WP style! Back to work. Badagnani 21:03, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
didn't mean for it to be a tongue lashing, sorry if it came across that way. Pencil Pusher 21:18, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Page protection

I've protected this article due to the request over at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection and the apparent edit warring going on here. Once a consensus is reached on the talk page here over the content in question I'll unprotect the page. -- Longhair | Talk 03:58, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

I think that the sources of the quotes need to be looked at pretty closely. Some are bordering on being personal web sites or web logs. Wikipedia:Reliable_sources has some information on this. Americanus 04:45, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
I say pitch the entire chronology heading. The majority of these items are redundant with events described elsewhere, many are not worthy of mention in historical context, and it's extremely poor in style.
Pitch the majority of subheadings under Background. Stick to one factual narrative telling the reader the story of why Cindy is noteworthy. Her son went to Iraq, her son died, She met with Bush, she became an activist, she went to Crawford, people took notice. Inclusion of various speeches given, people met, etc. is only necessary inasmuch as these facts are exceptional to the general narrative.
In addition to the one factual narrative, do a heading for Controversy and break it down, case by case. What are the controversies? Cindy allegedly changed her "tune". Who said what? Put forth 1 piece of the best evidence for each side and let the reader decide. Cheri Quarterolo allegedly wrote an email. Cindy is allegedly being controlled/used for political purposes by the far left. Each of these items is currently getting 5-6 sentences and 2-3 grafs. I would put forth the challenge that with good writing, this can be done with 1 graf of 2-3 sentences for each controversy.
I don't think this subject needs much more treatment than that, unless something really significant happens in the future (e.g. Bush meets with Sheehan, renounces all his policy, resigns and begs for forgiveness). Trim the fat and there's not much room left for POV to hide. As it is, this article would alternately bore hell out of or confuse a reader who came to WP to ask "who is this Cindy Sheehan person I heard about?" -Kwh 05:51, August 14, 2005 (UTC)
Re-reading the chronological narrative, I see that the chronology probably could indeed be worked into a narrative, with headings discussing the various key points. I don't personally see anything wrong with the chronology as it is (it is definitely not boring, as you imply!) but I can see how some might prefer a narrative. In this case, the chronology did serve its function, almost like a set of "training wheels" for the article, keeping important developments arranged in chronological order, all backed up with sources.
Your use of the word "pitch," however, seems flippant. If most of the important points could be kept, the reworking could work. I trust you'll keep important content in doing so, as many people have worked hard to include important facts in the chronology.
Let's have input from other contributors on this. Badagnani 06:12, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
I think it is important to keep the chronology. Should a mass riot break out, then we will have captured what led up the event. I personally believe that the Crawford camp is potentially a tinderbox that may either errupt into violence or continue peacefully (depending on how it's managed). Eventually I do believe this story will have its part in bringing an end to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Longhair: Please add the current event to the chronology, it's significant: 12-13 August 2005 Demonstrators backing President Bush's war effort arrive at Camp Crawford [21]

Kgrr 16:52, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Longhair: Please add this curret event to the chronology: 14 August 2005 Shots fired near protesters. [22] A neighboring rancher discharged a rifle several times near the protesters. He said "I shot at a bird, and missed it a while ago." (Who shoots birds with a rifle???)

Kgrr 23:40, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Fox News Channel

As far a left goes, Fox News goes to the blame game. The blame game...."Some People Say..." As far as that little phrase goes, remember the words of Fox News. "Some People Say!" After hearing Bill O'Reilly, Michelle Malkin and John Gibson go after Cindy, Ms. Sheehan says Bill O'Reilly's Show is an "Obscenity to Humanity" and continuously retorts the right-wings smear campaign! Then Fox News gives a grieving mom gets a makeover. Picture this, Ms. Sheehan now she's a far-leftist, Michael Moore supportive, anti-war mom, who hypocritical crusade to get President Bush to force the U.S. troops come home so that the terrorist could win, that's ludicrous! Now c'mon, can't we get a right to protest outside (9 miles) of the Crawford ranch (to at least say President Bush) made a mistake. Oh, I forgot Fox News is the cheerleader for Bush and his people. Karl Rove is more important than Sheehan's protest. LILVOKA 15 August 2005 12:13 (EST)--------Sorry I didn't catch it in time to sign! Thanks Eclipsed.

ummm.... So chopping out all of that POV -- are you saying that "Bill O'Reilly and others are criticising Sheehan"? I think that's already in the article. Also, please sign your comments. Eclipsed 17:39, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

An Outsider's View

As a non-American, it has amazed me to see the amount of derogorative coverage Ms. Sheehan has garnered from the US right-wing media simply for excerciseing her right in wishing to make the country's ultimate public servant, President Bush, accountable for his actions. This, and much of the events of the last several years, leads me to believe that very few people actually know what democracy is or how it works. The leval of venom displayed towards her is utterly appalling, and yet another blow against the image of the USA in the rest of the world. You'd think we'd be used to this kind of thing by now, but just when you think you've hit rock bottom along comes someone with a jackhammer .... Fergananim August 14 2005

  • I think you mean the liberal media, don't let the intense hatred of liberals fool you, they're all a bunch of secret liberals!! - anon

Unprotected

Unprotected, as no discussion on talk. All protection seems to be vandal related. Recommend quick-blocking of any vandalism for 1 day periods, without excessive warning --depending on the severtity of the vandalism. -St|eve 02:04, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

  • I will add a commented out section at the top of the page to warn vandals of this policy. It seems better than protection given that it's a current event. David | Talk 11:08, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Anti-Semitism

The article linked in the claim that Sheehan has been accused of anti-semitism does not actually make the charge, nor is it necessarily a notable claim. If the Israeli Embassy, a senior Israeli or Jewish politician or a leading Jewish figure or anti-anti-semitism campaigner made the charge it would be notable, same if it was made by a major named columnist or US politician. A wingnut publication with no real readership is not notable. Plus the article does not have the guts to call her an anti-semite directly, instead its the old trick of saying she 'associates' with unnamed anti-semites. --Gorgonzilla 02:23, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

If David Duke says he is a big supporter of George Bush that does not mean it is a notable comment that should be listed in an article. If Sheehan wellcomed the support or invited Duke on stage etc. there would be a connection. As it stands this is simply a way to perform a very POV guilt by association tactic. Making false accusations of anti-semitism for political purposes is generally considered to be insulting to the victims of anti-semitism. --Gorgonzilla 04:15, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Casey Sheehan

Why isn't there an article on Casey Sheehan himself? I think there ought to be to clearly demonstrate every fact of what Cindy Sheehan is doing in the least.

Vandal

192.88.132.242

Namespace:

(Latest | Earliest) View (previous 50) (next 50) (20 | 50 | 100 | 250 | 500).

   * 13:55, 15 August 2005 (hist) (diff) Cindy Sheehan (top)
   * 13:44, 15 August 2005 (hist) (diff) Cindy Sheehan
   * 13:35, 15 August 2005 (hist) (diff) Cindy Sheehan

Kgrr 14:00, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Blocked 24 hours for vandalism. David | Talk 14:07, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

[And who is now making a full apology for his actions. My actions were stupid, and without merit... I don't know how many of you will accept this, but I am sorry for my actions here.]192.88.132.242

  • Here's another IP for blocking--deleted entire page twice on 8/17. ==> User:68.79.134.87 Badagnani 02:28, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Here's a new vandal: 24.18.128.52

Vandalized page, as well as the Democratic Underground page, several times.

Repeated vandalism going on -- kindly block IP 69.111.91.19. Badagnani 04:56, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

::Hey Elee...why delete vandalism report (the most recent one, IP 70.etc.) with no comment? Badagnani 05:14, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

:::Did I delete a vandalism report? If I did, it was inadvertent. Very sorry if I did. Please rv for me, because I'm not sure where this happened. Eleemosynary

This one is even worse. Hope there is an admin on duty! 70.176.183.170 Badagnani 05:07, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Vandalism, please ban 24.166.144.178 Badagnani 07:52, 20 August 2005 (UTC)


Sheehan's age

Sheehan appears to have been born in 1957, with most sources claiming she is 48 [23][24][25]. --Viriditas | Talk 12:32, 16 August 2005 (UTC)


Breaking Public Criticism into sections?

Anyone have anything to say about it? POV destroyer 14:59, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

I was looking at a slab of two screenfuls of text. Most of which say little more than the section headings. This is going to expand further to follow events, adding headings discourages people from duplicating, if Drudge has said something the same accusation from O'Reily a day later is not notable. Two things are important here, the first is the criticism comes from a particular group of GOP supporters that are not part of the administration, and not Rove's principle circle. Second some people like drudge have made incompatible charges. --Gorgonzilla 15:06, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Furthermore all mention of the anti-semitic claims has disappeared from criticism, even if it is a canard, it should be there. There should also be criticism of the criticism.--Gorgonzilla 15:13, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
I think it got wrapped into the Political Activism section. POV destroyer 15:18, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
I added a small section. I don't think that this attack comes from anyone notable at this stage but some think it is significant it is being made. --Gorgonzilla 16:13, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
On the Flip flop Section heading, this is actually the phrase being used by the critics. The use of the term is also highly indicative of the type of criticism made. Flip flop is a pretty vaccuous criticism at the best of times, calling a change of view on the Iraq war after her son is kiled a 'flip-flop' is utterly bizare and more of a commentary on the terms of US political debate than anything else. So even though it appears to be POV, the headline is a very appropriate summary of the criticisms made by Drudge, Malkin and o'reily. It is also indicative of the savage nature and the pointlessness of the attacks. --Gorgonzilla 16:13, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Flip flop is a metaphor that is okay to use in quoting the critic, but not an appropriate section title. The line would go something like this... "Drudge refers to Sheehans change of position as a 'flip-flop' (make link to appropriate explanation of the metaphor). A primary or secondary source must be cited for this. Americanus 17:00, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Hey what happened to the criticism section? There is now no reference at all to either the 'change of mind' or the 'extreeme left wing' attacks. Instead we have the completely irrelevant refusal to appear on Bill o'Really's shout radio show. A refusal to attend a debate on equal terms might be relevant, but refusing to appear on a partisan radio show where the host specializes in shouting down guests is standard procedure for anyone with any sense. George Bush has refused to appear on Air America, big deal. This is really not representative of the criticism being made, not even by O'Rielly. --Gorgonzilla 03:33, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

  • That's the sound of POV chipping away so subtly that you don't even notice things are gone. I think some objected to the spurious, substance-less, and partisan nature of the attacks, as well as the fact that the seemingly pro-Bush quotes given by Sheehan in the interview after her first meeting were not accompanied by the anti-Bush ones from the same interview. Why not dig back about 100 or so edits and put some of the criticism back, if you think it's notable? Badagnani 03:40, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Fear

'"I’m not in favor of what she (Sheehan) is saying," Healy said. "But, I’m absolutely proud she has the right to say that. It’s really the triumph of our democracy, but I’m fearful the enemies will use it against us."' --- Natalie Healy [26]

The only thing that this comment shows is that Healy is experiencing fear; fear that something will happen somewhere, sometime, somereason, and in some way precipitated by Sheehan.

Healy speaks of an enemy although does not define it. Fear of something unseen, undefinable. She seems to be saying that she's afraid of fear or terror itself. It could be that she is fearful of change from the status-quo and the uncertainty of what that change would be.

'"...the only thing we have to fear is fear itself—nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance. In every dark hour of our national life a leadership of frankness and vigor has met with that understanding and support of the people themselves which is essential to victory."' [27]

Healy also points out that all Gold Star Families are do not agree with Sheehan. I don't think that is implied anywhere, but if so, it would be okay to add that to the page on Gold Star families.

Americanus 20:10, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

The O'Riely thing

The first section in criticism is now a refutation by Sheehan. That is not NPOV folks. Bizare thing is here that it seems to have got that way because right-wingers wanted to remove the now disproven 'flip flop' charge. As it is the section does not work even as POV since the reader is not told what Sheehan is reacting to. --Gorgonzilla 03:46, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I edited this down to just the quotes with verifiable sources. Also put in chronological order. Americanus 11:13, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

White House meeting?

Is this article inaccurate in stating that there was also a White House meeting between Bush and Sheehan? http://www.lewisnews.com/article.asp?ID=105971 Badagnani 03:35, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I was confused about that too. I removed that citation as it went with the Fort Lewis meeting. I haven't read about a private White House meeting anywhere else. POV destroyer 03:48, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Must have just been a misunderstanding on the part of the journalist regarding the location, then. Ironic that the paper based in the town where the meeting took place got the location wrong! Badagnani 04:04, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Slate

Just added stuff from the new slate article on her. i left links on the page to the article, and to a david duke article i also referenced.

Please sign additions. The Slate article does not say anything other than what has already been said in this article. Americanus 10:43, 17 August 2005 (UTC)



False Attribution

Removing mention of the false attribution of comments by Drudge is not only POV it means the reader loses critical context for the rest of the story. When Sheehan is calling O'Reily a liar it is the repeat of the Drudge allegation she refers to. Just because Drudge and O'Reily are trying a different attack today does not mean that their previous attack is no longer notable. --Gorgonzilla 15:37, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Links for Comment Before Adding

I've seen most of the following sites before, and was hoping for some input on which ones might be appropirate or germaine to the article.

Which is most worthwhile?

Americanus 17:14, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Iraq Coalition Casualty Count, it is the most neutral of the sites, just the facts, it is also regularly updated and has been widely linked to. --Gorgonzilla 20:19, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Emphasis on the Article

How ridiculous is it that we have an article about this crackpot wench and not her son? TDC 17:22, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

  • From TDC's own user page TDC: "Described as one of the most prolific troll from my friends at Nazimedia and banned from too many chat rooms to mention, I feel Wikipedia is both an opportuntiy to inform as well as persuade." I couldn't have said it better. Badagnani 17:27, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
You could have not said it at all and spared the servers the memory. That would have said it better TDC 17:30, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Criticism/praise

I notice that the criticism section (including excruciating detail from every Tom, Dick, and Rush) has grown quite large--nearly half the length of the entire article. In an effort to emulate FOX and be fair and balanced, should we not add a section including five or six long testimonials from those praising what Sheehan is doing, stating its importance to contributing to an end to the war and the troops coming home, etc.?

This isn't meant to be funny; the article, like all on WP, should be encyclopedic and free from bias, thus balanced in terms of who is praising and who is criticizing. Those with the power (i.e. holding the microphones) don't necessarily believe the same way as the public, a large percentage of whom seem to be behind Sheehan, if not so vocal about it. I think there were about 1,600 vigils in support of Sheehan around these 50 states yesterday so someone out there isn't quite so critical of this grieving mother. Badagnani 19:23, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Very good point. Some articles have proponents and opponents. The article should definitely have some good proponent sources. Very well known and respected people. Americanus 20:16, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
I think that there should be some comments from critics of the critics. For example media matters has exposed Drudge as an outright liar, crooks and liars has documented numerous ridiculous chages (including his latest bizare claim that Sheehan's story is fake, is Rush loosing it?). Salon has an article on the attacks, there are articles in several of the papers. Much of the criticism stands for itself, Limbaugh and O'Reily were both chickenhawk draft-dodgers and they are busy sliming the mother of a fallen soldier. --Gorgonzilla 20:24, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Salam Pax "Quote"

Prominent Iraqi blogger, Salam Pax, wrote an open letter...

The link to this "Salam Pax Quote" [28], is on the site of a different blogger, "Iraq The Model". Am I missing something completely dumb, or is this quote misattributed to the wrong blogger? --Bletch 21:18, 18 August 2005 (UTC)


Sheehan's comments on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict

From the article:

Concerning the Israeli-Palestinian conflict she has said, "you get America out of Iraq and Israel out of Palestine and you'll stop the terrorism."

Someone added the assertion that Sheehan denied making this statement, and cited this to support it. I reverted the edit because I don't see Sheehan address this particular quote anywhere in that article. Davetrainer 23:49, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

The denial is sourced a heck of a lot better than the accusation. This looks to me like an excuse to put words in Sheehan's mouth and then demand a categorical denial for each one. The onus is on the people making the initial claim here.--Gorgonzilla 00:10, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

The article listed the allegations arising from the ABC memo twice. That is wrong. Sheehan has actally denied all the allegations [29]:

COOPER: You were also quoted as saying, "My son joined the Army to protect America, not Israel. If you get America out of Iraq and Israel out of Palestine, and you'll stop the terrorism." How responsible do you believe Israel is for the amount of terrorism in the world?
SHEEHAN: I didn't say that.
COOPER: You didn't say that? OK.
SHEEHAN: I didn't say that my son died for Israel. I've never said that. I saw somebody wrote that, and it wasn't my words. Those aren't even words that I would say.
I do believe that the Palestinian issue is a hot issue that needs to be solved, and it needs to be more fair and equitable, but I never said my son died for Israel.

POV Trainer

"Along with criticizing the Bush Administration and the War in Iraq, Sheehan has been vocal in her attacks on Israel and US foreign policy. Concerning the Israeli-Palestinian conflict she has said, "you get America out of Iraq and Israel out of Palestine and you'll stop the terrorism." [10]. Cindy Sheehan denies ever making such statements [11]."

This wording states that it is a fact that Sheehan made the statement. No proof has been provided to disprove the denial. Ergo at the very least the wording is highly POV.

But if you read the article linked you will discover it is actually sourced back to the same ABC letter that is discssed in the very next paragraph. So quit the revert war. --Gorgonzilla 02:47, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

All I can say is that Sheehan's email sent to Nightline is posted on a Google group in March. Unless she is stating that it was altered when it was posted by her friends to their own Google group, it seems unlikely that that original posting from March 2005 has changed, as it was 5 months before this current controversy. POV destroyer 02:48, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
That is in the paragraph that is still there. The paragraph I deleted was a repeat that preceded it and cited a wingnut blog rather than ABC.--Gorgonzilla 02:51, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
I believe the "Israel out of Palestine" remark was a quote from her speech to Veterans For Peace convention. I'm not sure how you prove she didn't say it unless you listen to a recording of her speech and you don't hear it. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to cite half the press sources that we use for quotes and such. Are you saying the original source for the quotes from her speech is unreliable? Is there a recording of her speech? POV destroyer 03:01, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
OK here is what I have discovered, we are both right
  • The ABC letter is quoted as the source of 2 sets of comments about Israel, one the PNAC one in the article, the second the 'Israel out of Palestine' comment
  • The Google groups comment only contains the PNAC comment
  • Ergo the Google groups message actually proves Sheehan's denial of the Israel out comment.

--Gorgonzilla 03:02, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

BTW saying that the PNAC folk are pro-Likud is not exactly a controvertial claim. Nor does it seem to be one of the things being denied.--Gorgonzilla 03:02, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

I found the authentic transcript which proves she did say "Israel out of Palestine": [30]
She said it, but not in the email. Where is a cite that alleges she said it in the email? If you want to put in a new paragraph saying she believes isreal should not be in palestine, fine, but it apparently has nothing to do with the email controversy Pencil Pusher 03:57, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Critics section

Why is there a section that breaks down "critics" person-by-person? I've never seen this done on any of the 4900+ other articles I've ever edited. Half of these folks are from Fox News. Shouldn't they all be clumped under one title, ie "Rupert Murdoch"? Seriously though, this section is ridiculous. At the very least, the subheading names need to be elminated, and probably most of the quotes can be trimmed down or removed without losing any information. — BRIAN0918 • 2005-08-19 03:51

I've removed most of the unnecessary quotes. If people want quotes, they need only click the citations. I've also removed the subheadings and the criticisms from random unknowns (although I've heard of Fred Barnes, he is by no means as notable as Drudge, O'Reilly, or Limbaugh). — BRIAN0918 • 2005-08-19 04:14

Excellent points. The "Critics" section had become a transparent campaign to discredit the article's subject through a "data dump" of Fox/Drudge/National Review smears. The full transcript of G. Gordon Liddy's (!) smear on Sheehan took the section from the deplorable into the laughable. Thanks for fixing it.

User:Pencil Pusher (who has made all of 42 edits) has made the most POV edit I've ever seen. Somehow, this user has fluidly converted the section from "criticisms" into "accusations", and endorsed all of these views as legitimate based on their existence alone! What a feat! — BRIAN0918 • 2005-08-19 04:21

have you read the section? actually read it? cause I have news for you, the POV you think i have is exactly wrong. Pencil Pusher 04:29, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
You need to read WP:NPOV. Do you even realize how ridiculous your edits are? It's extremely POV before the reader even gets to the content. Don't you realize this? — BRIAN0918 • 2005-08-19 04:30
Nice. You admit the content is NPOV, but the very existance of the section is POV. Very Nice. See my other comment below. Pencil Pusher 04:40, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Hey, Pencil Pusher: I get a kick out of reverting pathetically POV edits. So, if you manage to sneak any of your nonsense past Brian, I'll be happy to revert it. And Brian: You are doing excellent yeoman's work keeping the page honest. "Pencil Pusher" realizes exactly what he's doing, and should seek work writing captions on Fox News. -- Eleemosynary

I'm trying very hard to not call you both names. CS has been slimed by the right wing media. They have pulled out the stops to trash her. This is very much a part of the story. If either of you WOULD HAVE BOTHERED TO READ THE SECTION you would have seen that ever single right wing slime was, in a total NPOV fashion, discredited. Reading comprehension is your friend. Pencil Pusher 04:39, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Nice Try, Pencil Pusher. Sorry; it won't wash. Here's an idea: Try not publishing discredited smears. That helps to, um, discredit them. Yeesh. And, by the way, I DID READ THE SECTION (see, I can use CAPS LOCK too) and you made NO MENTION that the SMEARS were DISCREDITED. -- Eleemosynary
yes, that would be violating NPOV. To say bill o'reily was talking out of his ass would be inappropriate. Instead I put each criticsm into context so... get this... so the reader can decide whether the criticsm was warranted. Pencil Pusher 04:58, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

No, what you did was to attempt to legitimize the smears, and then attempt to hide behind "hey, I was just letting the reader decide" nonsense. Sort of like "We report; you decide," huh?

Hey, man. You got caught. Sucks for you. Get over it.

No, what sucks is that there are so many of you who are so dense and so paranoid that you can't even recognize a friend. Pencil Pusher 05:29, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Why don't you take a look at my history of edits before you say "nice try" for example: changing
In interviews about this meeting given more than a year later she states that she was offended by how Bush behaved at the meeting. She states that Bush acted is if the meeting were a party, rather than a somber meeting with families of slain veterans, that he kept calling her "Ma" or "Mom," and that he didn't seem to know the gender of her child, referring to him only as "your loved one."
to
The following July 4th she gave an interview [31] where she described the meeting as "one of the most disgusting experiences I ever had and it took me almost a year to even talk about it." In that interview, she described President Bush as being "detached from humanity." She said, "His mouth kept moving, but there was nothing in his eyes or anything else about him that showed me he really cared or had any real compassion at all." She claimed, "He didn’t even know our names," asking "Who we’all honorin’ here today?" when he first entered the room, and then referring to her as "Ma or Mom."
or
She believes that the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars are merely part of "a neo-con agenda that only benefits a very chosen few in this world." [32]
to
In a letter to author William Rivers Pitt, she stated, "And most importantly and devastatingly, this war is based on lies and betrayals. Not one American soldier, nor one Iraqi should have been killed. Common sense would dictate that not one more person should be killed for lies. One of the people, my son, was more than enough for me and my family. I will live in unbearable pain until I die. First of all, because my first born was killed violently, and second of all, because he was killed for a neo-con agenda that only benefits a very chosen few in this world. This agenda and their war machine will chew up and spit out as many of our children as they can unless we stop them now." [33]
or
She has also referred to President Bush as "Führer" in an editorial relating her experience on a recent Larry King Live show. [34]
to
In another editorial relating her experience on a June 28th, 2005 Larry King Live show she described President Bush as having "moronic and callous foreign policies" and said Senator John Warner "fell in lockstep behind his Führer." She said, "this war is a catastrophe" and "we should bring the troops home and quit forcing the Iraqi people to pay for our government's hubris and quit forcing innocent children to suffer so we can allegedly fight terrorism somewhere besides America. How absolutely racist and immoral is it to take America's battles to another land and make an entire country pay for the crimes of others? To me, this is blatant genocide." [35] Pencil Pusher 04:51, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for claiming to be "on her side". Rather than babble on about something as pointless as your view, I will summarize: allegation != criticism, and the opinions of non-notables like Fred Barnes and some random people with internet connections, (ie, "bloggers") do not matter to this article. By laying out all of their opinions as "criticisms", and giving them all their own headings, you're saying that Wikipedia not only fully believes these opinions, but endorses them. I'm not saying you can't include their views; they could be quickly summarized, such as "other claims include...", but giving them their own headers is ridiculous, and all that quoting is completely unnecessary. — BRIAN0918 • 2005-08-19 04:46
Did I introduce a single criticm? Was it me who put a single critic in the article? No. I took every existing criticism, put them in context. I say again: part of this story is how the right has reacted to CS. Glossing over this fact makes an incomplete article.Pencil Pusher 04:58, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

No, what you did is try to legitimize the smears. The issue of the right-wing attack on the subject is addressed clearly in one sentence at the top of the criticism section. You must be very bored tonight. -- Eleemosynary

No, what i did was put every single one of the smears in contex. When someone put in a criticsm that "she changed her position" I put in the relevant sections from article, showing she was, at best conflicted. Pencil Pusher 05:20, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Okay, PP, it's getting sad now. You're grasping at straws, and posting paragraphs of posts/revisions that have nothing to do with the point at hand: You attempted to turn the page into a laughably POV screed, were caught and reverted, and are now trying to save face. Lucidity might be a friend with whom you may want to acquaint yourself.

Does paranoia work for you? Not everyone is against you. Any fair minded, rational person would see you are... well... i let them insert the correct term. Pencil Pusher

And you'll be addressing my question when, exactly?

What was the question, exactly? Pencil Pusher 05:16, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Why are you hiding behind "I was just trying to let the reader decide" when you clearly had a POV agenda?

Why do you have such a hard time with reading comprehension? Once again, part of the story is how the right wing treated CS. The article had a number of right wing critisms when I got here. I changed each one to more accurately reflect the truth. As is common with right wing criticsm, there was a kernel of truth in each one. I put the context in each one so that any reader with above an 80 IQ could decide for themselves that the critisms were baseless. This is a critical part of the story. Unfortunately, I've encountered a number of borderline-retarded editors who simply can't comprehend this. Pencil Pusher 05:29, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

No problem whatseover with reading comprehension. I have a problem with liars, of which you are one. Now that you've been cornered, your anger and frustration are bleeding into your self-righteous justifications for your POV edit. It was only a matter of time.

I am always angered and frustrated at people who are so dense that light bends around their heads. BTW, you were the one who started with the attacks, I just decided to dish it out as good as I got. You say I made 42 edits. Isn't it curious that not a single one was reverted until now? Isn't it curious that people were watching each one of my edits and believed them to be fair. Isn't it curious you can't come up with a single NPOV word that was written by me, and your only argument is, "but you acknowledged that critism exists." Well, you may not be able to appreciate these nuances, but luckily others around here have some pretty solid heads on their shoulders. Pencil Pusher 06:00, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
  • May I try to mediate here? I've been working with this article for a while now and believe the criticism section needs to be factual and concise. I agree that there should not be a subsection for each RW critic, as they are all more or less on the same page. But it is important that each criticism be described, as they seem to come in waves and show a coordinated smear campaign. First criticism: she changed her story; second criticism: she is a pawn of "far-left elements"; third criticism: her story is "not real"; fourth criticism: she's an anti-Semite. Please do not purge such criticism under the belief that anyone who mentions them is in tacit agreement with them. Let's work together to create a factual, concise section summarizing the critics' tactics concisely. In fact, making note of the things that have been said to try to impugn this woman (including the earlier, discredited statements like the one implying that her story has been inconsistent) say a lot more about the critics than the subject of the criticism. Badagnani 05:34, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Halleluiah! Someone with a brain! May I suggest using as a starting point the 1400 words that were deleted before the "anyone who mentions them is in tacit agreement with them" crowd got their hands on the article. Pencil Pusher 05:38, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

"Pencil Pusher's" nonsense notwithstanding, I would propose we do not list the RW smears under the heading of "Criticism," which lends undue credence to the smearers. Perhaps a heading of "Smear Campaign" or "Attacks" would be more fitting. "Criticism" implies thoughtful, cogent reasoning. It's also not necessary to post such ridiculous things as the Liddy Transcript, or what one National Review editor said about an unknown blogger. The amount of RW criticism that was left in the article AFTER Brian0918's rv should suffice. Eleemosynary 05:38, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

  • "Attacks" does makes sense as well. To be honest, I thought the section was fine before Pencil Pusher's additions, as afterwards it became too long and had many long direct quotes (esp. the Liddy transcript) which could have been summarized in a few words, with links to the original articles. This article has to remain readable and the "criticism"/"attacks" section shouldn't give the impression of dominating the article. Similar attacks were made against Martin Luther King but wouldn't it be weird if a long "criticism" section full of desperate smears against him ("he's nothing but a left-wing rabble rouser") appeared in an article about him? Badagnani 05:51, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
I didn't put in the Liddy transcript. The Liddy transcript was a late addition. Actually, as I said before, I didn't put in a single critism. I added context to each critism so that they could be analyzed. Yes, context adds length, but how else can you diffuse "she would also object to her son being killed in afghanistan" or "she said the president was sincere". Pencil Pusher 06:00, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Seriously, give it up.
One can only hope.

For posterity, this was the section whose mere mention was NPOV...

Good thing it's gone.

Criticisms

Since embarking on her vigil in early August 2005, Sheehan has been criticized by various individuals. Media criticism of her has been most vociferous from the right wing.

Inconsistent position

On 7 August 2005, Internet news analyst and conservative talk radio host Matt Drudge alleged that Sheehan had been inconsistent in her support for the war. He cited a 24 June 2004 interview article with Sheehan, which took place after her meeting with him.[36]. The article [37] describes a conflicted Sheehan:

But as their meeting with the president approached, the family was faced with a dilemma as to what to say when faced with Casey's commander-in-chief. "We haven't been happy with the way the war has been handled," Cindy said. "The president has changed his reasons for being over there every time a reason is proven false or an objective reached."
Cindy said she felt [a form letter expressing the President's condolences] was an impersonal gesture.
"I now know he's sincere about wanting freedom for the Iraqis," Cindy said after their meeting. "I know he's sorry and feels some pain for our loss. And I know he's a man of faith."
Cindy spoke about Casey and asked the president to make her son's sacrifice count for something.
While meeting with Bush, as well as Sen. John McCain, R-Arizona, was an honor, it was almost a tangent benefit of the trip. The Sheehans said they enjoyed meeting the other families of fallen soldiers, sharing stories, contact information, grief and support.
"That was the gift the president gave us, the gift of happiness, of being together," Cindy said.

Refusal to appear on The O'Reilly Factor

On 9 August, The O'Reilly Factor television program host Bill O'Reilly announced that Sheehan would appear on the next evening's episode of his program. During that same show he said various things about her, including:

"I think she has been hijacked by some very, very far left elements."
"She has thrown in -- there is no question that she has thrown in with the most radical elements in this country."
"Other American families who have lost sons and daughters in Iraq, who feel that this kind of behavior borders on treasonous."
"There are some people who hate this government, hate their country right now, and blaming Bush for all the terrorism and all the horror in the world."[38]

On 10 August, O'Reilly wrote:

"Ms. Sheehan told us she would appear on “The Factor” this evening, but she backed out a few hours ago, saying I lied about her."[39]

That same day she told a blogger, via telephone:

"Well, I’m not going to go on his show because, you know I don’t like it when people lie about me and attack me for exercising my freedom of speech. You know, it’s one thing for Bill O’Reilly to disagree with my politics and my view on the war, but it’s absolutely another thing that he attacked me personally about it. And he actually asked me to go on the show again today, and I said - my first reaction was all right I’ll go on it if he publicly apologizes for lying about me but then my second reaction was no, I’m not going on it, I’m not going to dignify his show by my presence because I believe his show is an obscenity. It’s an obscenity to the truth and it’s an obscenity to humanity."[40]

Falsified story

On 11 August 2005, during Fox News Channel's "Special Report with Brit Hume", political commentator Fred Barnes said:

"My view is, is there any left-wing publicity hound who the media won't build up? You have Joe Wilson, you have Bill Burkett, you know the guy that sold CBS on the story about Bush last fall and now you have this woman. This woman wants to go in and tell the President that the war is about oil because the President wants to pay off his buddies. She's a crackpot, and yet the press treats her as some important protester."[41]

On the 15 August 2005 episode of The Rush Limbaugh Show, host Limbaugh said:

"I mean, Cindy Sheehan is just Bill Burkett. Her story is nothing more than forged documents. There's nothing about it that's real, including the mainstream media's glomming onto it. It's not real. It's nothing more than an attempt. It's the latest effort made by the coordinated left."[42]

Disagreement with relatives

In an email conversation with Matt Drudge, Casey's paternal aunt Cherie Quartarolo is quoted as saying:

"We do not agree with the political motivations and publicity tactics of Cindy Sheehan. She now appears to be promoting her own personal agenda and notoriety at the the expense of her son's good name and reputation. The rest of the Sheehan Family supports the troops, our country, and our President, silently, with prayer and respect."

Quartarolo signs the email:

"Casey Sheehan's grandparents, aunts, uncles and numerous cousins."

Quartarolo does not mention the individual names of the aunts, uncles, or cousins.

During a series of interviews published on several websites, Sheehan said:

"My in-laws sent out a press conference disagreeing with me in strong terms; which is totally okay with me, because they barely knew Casey..."
"We have always been on separate sides of the fence politically and I have not spoken to them since the elections when they supported the man who is responsible for Casey’s death."[43]

Sheehan also told Salon.com:

"...my immediate family, Casey's dad and my three children and my sister, we're all on the same page. And I really think that some of my husband's siblings are with us too." [44]

Dede Miller, Sheehan's sister and Casey's aunt, is supportive of Sheehan's actions and joined her at Crawford early in the protest.[45]

Disagreement with other families

On 15 August 2005 Matt and Toni Matula, parents of the late Matthew Matula, a Texas Marine killed in Iraq, requested that the white cross representing their dead son as a victim of the war in Iraq be removed, stating that they did not wish their son's name to be part of an anti-war demonstration. Mr. Matula said, "It's fine for people to grieve their own way. It aggravates me to see them using other people's names to further their cause." [46]

Treatment of 9/11

Stephen Spruiell from National Review’s Media Welbog also criticized Sheehan for an April 27 2005 speech given at San Francisco State University for imprisoned NLG member Lynne Stewart, where Sheehan raised questions about the September 11th attacks. [47] In the speech Sheehan said:

"I’m going all over the country telling moms: his country is not worth dying for. If we’re attacked, we would all go out. We’d all take whatever we had. I’d take my rolling pin and I’d beat the attackers over the head with it. But we were not attacked by Iraq. {applause} We might not even have been attacked by Osama bin Laden if {applause}. 9/11 was their Pearl Harbor to get their neo-con agenda through and, if I would have known that before my son was killed, I would have taken him to Canada. I would never have let him go and try and defend this morally repugnant system we have. The people are good, the system is morally repugnant." {applause}[48]

Anti-semitism

On 17 August, on Fox New's "Hannity & Colmes", G. Gordon Liddy accused Cindy Sheehan of being an anti-semite. According to the partial transcript from the show posted on MediaMatters.org:

LIDDY: Well, I think that it's true that there are Americans who feel the way Cindy Sheehan does. Unfortunately, they are Americans who are very anti-Israel and, in some ways, anti-Semitic. She uses the term how the "neocons" are doing this thing -- that's code word for "the Jews in the Pentagon." She has made statements such as --
ALAN COLMES (co-host): Are you calling her anti-Semitic?
LIDDY: Yes. If she gets Israel out of Palestine, then we can get out of Iraq. I mean, check out her statements, she's way out there.
COLMES: Cindy Sheehan's anti-Semitic?
LIDDY: Yes.
COLMES: That's outrageous.
SEAN HANNITY (co-host): It's outrageous what has been said.
ELEANOR CLIFT (Newsweek contributing editor): That is almost not worth responding to.
LIDDY: Look at her statements. Look at her statements and judge for yourself.
CLIFT: Look at your statements.

Vandalism by POV Destroyer

POV 'Destroyer' has turned to outright vandalism. He removed the context for a quote saying he 'did not see the need for it' yet does not seem to want to debate the change. In fact he has reverted three times now giving a completely misleading explanation of the edit. I find the title 'POV Destroyer' to be insulting and arrogant, it essentially accuses other wikipedians of bad faith when they oppose his highly POV edits. He appears to be intent on pursuing a partisan political agenda here.--Gorgonzilla 02:19, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

POV 'Destroyer' also removed a sentence stating that "Media criticism of [Sheehan] has been most vociferous by right-wing personalites." I fail to see what about that sentence merited its removal. It does not disparage the right-wing personalities, nor does it praise Ms. Sheehan. It's a statement of fact, and should remain. Gorgonzilla makes a good point. --Eleemosynary 02:19, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Eleemosynary, you state "three examples follow". I recommend that you reword/style that by simply providing the specific attributions. For example, on the Comedy Central's Jon Stewart's Daily Show I believe Wednesday August 17 (need a fact check) he showed about four rapid fire attacks on Sheehan's credibility by the opposition that looked like they were taken off FOX news channel. In any case "three examples follow" reads like a term paper. Kyle Andrew Brown 05:24, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, actually, we've been through the "specific attribution" controversy before in the talk section. I'm just going to remove the "three examples" sentence. -- Eleemosynary

Whoa, whoa whoa. What are you talking about? The fact that I thought mentioning the bike ride and which reporter wrote his quotes down was an unimportant detail? Do we mention what anyone, who is quoted by the media, is doing while being quoted? Or the name of the reporter that is quoting them? That is why I thought it an unimportant detail. Gorgonzilla, from reading your contributions to this discussion page I think you ought to be looking at yourself as far as partisan bias. I have gotten rid of right-wing POV as well as left-wing POV. And Eleemosynary, you don't think "vociferous by right-wing personalities" is POV? I don't know what to tell you. I think some of you don't really understand what neutrality in writing means. POV destroyer 11:34, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

No, "POV Destroyer," "vociferous by right-wing personalities" is not only non-POV, it's also far more accurate than the version to which you changed it. Is it POV to call Drudge, Limbaugh, and O'Reilly "right wing"? Of course not. Is it POV to characterize their quoted statements (and other statements made in the media by Liddy, Horowitz, Barnes, et al. as "vociferous"? It may not be pleasing to right-wing supporters, but it's not POV. You are exhibiting a rather rightward bias in your edits. And, contrary to your presumptuous and boorish handle, you are exhibiting a good deal of POV. In short, remove the plank from your own eye. I'll be watching your edits for further POV, and reverting them.

Eleemosynary

And I'm calling you out Gorgonzilla, you show me one example of a "POV edit" that I have done. I have worked with others here to present just the facts on this topic. You and other overt partisans on here seem to be the only ones who have a problem with me. I think you need to read my quote. It fits you perfectly. POV destroyer 11:46, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I think I see what is going on here. Last night I made one edit and every time I went to save it, it gave me an ERROR. So I kept clicking on Refresh and clicking Retry to try it again. After looking at the history it appears that all of those saves eventually made it into Wikipedia's database thus making it look like I kept reverting back changes others had made. POV destroyer 11:53, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Larry King

In this section it starts: "In another editorial" which should probably be reworded, because when the guests are on the program they are not usually described as giving editorials.Kyle Andrew Brown 03:06, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Bike Ride

the reason it has been showing up as "bike ride" is because that is how Ken Herman reported it in his nationally syndicated column. I'm not sure about changing his wording. He was not trying to be formal. What think all? Kyle Andrew Brown 05:55, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

It's not that big a deal but this is an encyclopedia article and you'd never see it as "bike" in that context. If it was part of a quote, then it would be fine. Badagnani 06:59, 20 August 2005 (UTC)


I see that the stated reasoning for keeping the detail about giving an interview before going for a bike ride was to "show Bush's priorities". Now I'm asking everyone, does that sound neutral? POV destroyer 11:55, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

I kinda think Bush and aids set up the quick standup in the context of the bike ride as a backdrop - they knew what would be videod and the scene of the interview. When a president speaks in Washington it is routine to report that "in the the East Room", "in the Rose garden", "on Air Force One." For some reason it is American journo style to state the place and circumstances of presidential remarks. Maybe it is partly because it provides the tone of softness or hardness of the presidential comments.
Here to include the bike ride setting establishes it was not a "major address" in prime time tv, rather a casual standup that - and by White House standards should be considered made in a more casual rather than formal context. The setting of presidential remarks IS carefully choreographed and I would suggest appropriate to report. Kyle Andrew Brown 14:01, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

The quote immediately following comments directly on Bush's priorities. And most news accounts of the quote put it in the context of the bike ride. Removing it three times without refering to talk was not acceptable. As for bicycle/bike, he was on a mountain bike, has anyone ever heard of a 'mountain bicycle?'. Should the article on record player be headed 'gramophone'?--Gorgonzilla 12:28, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Myself, I'm leaning towards bike ride because that is how the journo tabbed it and Gorgonzilla's point about going on a bike ride like a mountain bike sounds more, well :sporty, than a merry bicycle ride in the 50's.
Also, If any reverts were made after Talk started that is a not good form. This article is not going to become a Revert Warriors site. The battle lines are in the real world! Thanks for noticing that.

Anyway, let's get this refered quickly. And demostrate we can do it. Kyle Andrew Brown 13:53, 20 August 2005 (UTC)


Talk Archieve

I deleted it because the back end server kept barfing on attempted updates, probably because the log was 114K. There is a link to the archive. I am trying to search the archive to copy the still relevant material back here. Trying the opposite way round simply wasn't working, the server kept giving edit conflicts because you were editing. Feel free to rescue anything. I stuck some subheads in to make parallel edits possible. --Gorgonzilla 14:22, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

The server itself was suggesting it was too long each time an edit was added. Furthermore everyone seemed to be ignoring previous comments on topics which suggested to me the log was too long for people to bother reading. Everything is in the archived talk. --Gorgonzilla 15:35, 20 August 2005 (UTC)