Talk:Cinco de Mayo/archive1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Editors! Please lock this article!

Given that the last 50 edits are all anon vandalism, is it time to semi-protect this page. jmj 23:51, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

AGREE! There is actualy no more constructive contribution to give to this article. It should be locked!!--Magi Media 03:23, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

This is getting out of control. It's someone elses turn to try Requests for page protection It got knocked back last time as not enough vandalism. I think its much worse now. jmj 22:22, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I believe that some people might have erased information on Cinco de Mayo!Bethredhead 4 May 2007

Please watch this article for vandalism

This article undergoes a great deal of vandalism near the May 5th date. We request all editors be vigilant year round and remove extraneous remarks that add no value to the content of the article, especially racist remarks. Thank You! Magi Media 03:02, 29 June 2006 (UTC)Magi Media

The vandalism doesn't seem to be confined to the 5th of May time period either. Why not put a temporary block on editing this article? Alcarillo 21:31, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Maximillian Bonaparte?

Maximillian was not related to Napoleon III. Please fix this factual error.

Maybe not directly — but I thought I read he was the husband of a niece of a of a cousin, something like that. I don't think he was a random selection. Magi Media 13:51, 5 May 2006 (UTC)Magi Media


he was a cousin through marriage...that is correct...but way to state as fact that he "was not related" just because it was news to you...maybe next time you'll just realize that you are an ignorant tool instead of a self righteous teacher...

Am I crazy?

... or is this posting just a little bit racist?

Now, I'm no bleeding-heart Liberal, but don't you think:

- labelling Mexicans using the slur "wetbacks" and

- referring to the stereotype of "drinking tequila, screaming unintelligable slogans, and shooting guns into the air"

is vaguely inappropriate when explaining what some would consider a national holiday?

If I had more knowledge on the subject, I'd edit the posting. However, I don't.... so can I appeal for someone else to?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jacka16 (talk • contribs)

This page is suffering serious vandalism today. I'll go check to see if it got hit again. GRBerry 18:15, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

"French People"

Quote: "French people are not allowed to celebrate Cinco de Mayo.". Seriously, this article has had it all. It was one thing when people over-emphasized and even dimished it (i.e. "Peasants with machetes"), but I'm all for strict and enforced NPOV, so anyone care remove/elaborate on this new piece of rubbish? Heck, I'm a native mexican myself and am very proud of the battle incident and celebration, but even I will admit it's unfair to just toss "French people" in there. Granted there exists such a ban, it is very well in place to be more specific as to who it applies, e.g. French nationals/French immigrants and whether residing in Puebla/residing in US? Oleksandr 06:37, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Citations Missing

This is an informative article but is missing in-text citations and accompanying footnotes. Please add them where appropriate. Thanks! ~ask123

Battles

actually there is a lot that can be done to this page...it isn't exactly accurate...the person who reported got more than one battle mixed up...the mexicans won in Puebla in 1862, but napoleon III returned with 30,000 soldiers and crushed the mexican army. The french occupied mexico for a short time and a relative of napoleon III, Maximillian, was named as the ruler. The Mexican people remembered the victory at Puebla and celebrated Cinco de Mayo even while they were occupied by the French. Max ruled for a short time until P. Diaz (Mexico's next ruler) eventually led a Mexican army and pushed the French out of Mexico for good. Maximillian was executed by a firing squad and his bullet-riddled shirt still hangs in Mexico City...The Mexican army didn't accomplish this until 1867...well after the American Civil War was over. It took them nearly five years to defeat the French so they didn't exactly have anything to do with stopping the French from helping the South in the American Civil War. The French stopped short of aiding the South because when Abraham Lincoln made the Emancipation Proclamation he made public the North's intention of putting an end to slavery. Abe knew that by making this declaration that the French (who had already outlawed slavery years earlier) would have no choice but to stay out of the civil war. Napoleon III didn't want to help the North (because he feared a strong America) and, because of French public outcry (against helping the South maintain slavery) he had no choice but to stay away.

Just another excuse to party

I love it:

"Non-Mexican Americans also use the holiday as an excuse to party. Tequila consumption increases on this day."

Guilty as charged! --mav

I wrote this from personal experience.  :) - Zoe

Aren't all national holidays used for the same purpose? This is not material for an Encyclopedia...sentences like: "but many people treat it as an opportunity to get drunk" are innecesary and diminish the seriousness of this article.

True though. If there are Martians, or Albanians, for that matter, here and saying "gosh, Americans are really interested in Mexican history. Irish, Italians, Jews, even French people are celebrating!" the article should disabuse them. --♥ «Charles A. L.» 01:10, 8 May 2AMY006 (UTC)

==Battling over the battle== chickennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

Isn't there rather too much battle stuff here, which would more logically be in the battle article instead? And (nitpick) shouldn't the article be "Cinco de Mayo" not "Cinco de mayo" (I don't know the fmsdnfjkadnjfnajksdnfajksdhfjspanish rules for capitalizing months)? -- nmxk KLJBNJK>FSLGHjflAHvcjbdlfgabvlfhdsbglbhjfkzsbhkbvglahbdvgdahflriFinlay McWalter | Talk 13:37, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Hold the mayo! I noticed this too. Months are ordinarily not capitalized in Spanish (or other Romance languages), but it is the name of a holiday. Perhaps its just dependent on the language its being used in, which in this case (the English-language Wikipedia) would mean using Mayo ("Cinco de Mayo" being a proper noun). –radiojon 19:52, 2004 May 5 (UTC)
Urgh, so really there's a good reason for it to be either way :) -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 20:10, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

The 5th of May is not Mexican Independence Day, but it should be! And Cinco de Mayo is not an American holiday, but it should be. Mexico declared its independence from mother Spain on midnight, the 15th of September, 1810. And it took 11 years before the first Spanish soldiers were told and forced to leave Mexico. fasdklf o[ kaeopfasdifud jfioehjg;iashufr8audio syaufidhaweui

So, why Cinco de Mayo? And why should Americans savor this day as well? Because 4,000 Mexican soldiers smashed the French and traitor Mexican army of 8,000 at Puebla, Mexico, 100 miles east of Mexico City on the morning of May 5, 1862.

The French had landed in Mexico (along with Spanish and English troops) five months earlier on the pretext of collecting Mexican debts from the newly elected government of democratic President (and Indian) Benito Juarez. The English and Spanish quickly made deals and left. The French, however, had different ideas.

Under Emperor Napoleon III, who detested the United States, the French came to stay. They brought a Hapsburg prince with them to rule the new Mexican empire. His name was Maximilian; his wife, Carlota. Napoleon's French Army had not been defeated in 50 years, and it invaded Mexico with the finest modern equipment and with a newly reconstituted Foreign Legion. The French were not afraid of anyone, especially since the United States was embroiled in its own Civil War.

The French Army left the port of Vera Cruz to attack Mexico City to the west, as the French assumed that the Mexicans would give up should their capital fall to the enemy -- as European countries traditionally did.

Under the command of Texas-born General Zaragosa, (and the cavalry under the command of Colonel Porfirio Diaz, later to be Mexico's president and dictator), the Mexicans awaited. Brightly dressed French Dragoons led the enemy columns. The Mexican Army was less stylish.

General Zaragosa then ordered Colonel Diaz to take his cavalry, the best in the world, out to the French flanks. In response, the French did a most stupid thing; they sent their cavalry off to chase Diaz and his men, who proceeded to butcher them. The remaining French infantrymen charged the Mexican defenders through sloppy mud from a thunderstorm and through hundreds of head of stampeding cattle stirred up by Indians armed only with machetes.

When the battle was over, many French were killed or wounded and their cavalry was being chased by Diaz' superb horsemen miles away. The Mexicans had won a great victory that kept Napoleon III from supplying the confederate rebels for another year, allowing the United States to build the greatest army the world had ever seen. This grand army smashed the Confederates at Gettysburg just 14 months after the battle of Puebla, essentially ending the Civil War.

Union forces were then rushed to the Texas/Mexican border under General Phil Sheridan, who made sure that the Mexicans got all the weapons and ammunition they needed to expel the French. American soldiers were discharged with their uniforms and rifles if they promised to join the Mexican Army to fight the French. The American Legion of Honor marched in the Victory Parade in Mexico, City.

It might be a historical stretch to credit the survival of the United States to those brave 4,000 Mexicans who faced an army twice as large in 1862. But who knows?

In gratitude, thousands of Mexicans crossed the border after Pearl Harbor to join the U.S. Armed Forces. As recently as the Persian Gulf War, Mexicans flooded American consulates with phone calls, trying to join up and fight another war for America.

Mexicans, you see, never forget who their friends are, and neither do Americans. That's why Cinco de Mayo is such a party -- A party that celebrates freedom and liberty. There are two ideals which Mexicans and Americans have fought shoulder to shoulder to protect, ever since the 5th of May, 1862. VIVA! el CINCO DE MAYO!!

First, this is directly copied. Second, it's false. Learn some about Napoleon III and then say thats right. it's not. Learn your History! That is "Historical Fiction". and plagiarism. its at this webpage, based in TEXAS not Mexico. If you read through, you'll notice the following historical fallacies (and many more)
  • "Emperor Napoleon III, who detested the United States, the French came to stay." Napoleon 3 was too busy with the Prussians and his growing "empire" to care about the US. And they were tearing themselves apart anyway.
  • "Napoleon's French Army had not been defeated in 50 years," Maybe nitpicking, but first off, the Bourbons returned after Napoleon Bonaparte, and he lost only 47 years earlier. And note the change in Napoleons.
  • "General Zaragosa ordered Colonel Diaz to take his cavalry, the best in the world, out to the French flanks" whoa... The mexicans had the best calvary? Then why didn't they conqueror anyone? Oh wait. They didn't. The Poish, French of Prussians did. Reality check.
  • "French did a most stupid thing" DId this come from the persons who said the french have never won a war? Because that's how you would win a battle. Protect your flanks.
  • "Indians armed only with machetes" not sure if this is true, but isn't that kinda stereotyping?
  • "won a great victory that kept Napoleon III from supplying the confederate rebels for another year" Look, the rebels were screwed. They had money based in the north and almost no industry. Not to mention a crappy navy. Besides, the British wanted to supply the rebels... Not the French... and then we released the Emancipation Proclamation, stopping that.
  • "Union forces were then rushed to the Texas/Mexican border under General Phil Sheridan, who made sure that the Mexicans got all the weapons and ammunition they needed to expel the French" What?
  • "It might be a historical stretch to credit the survival of the United States to those brave 4,000 Mexicans who faced an army twice as large in 1862. But who knows?" Whoa... An army of 8,00 could have taken out an army of 150,000? Thats a pretty sweet army... I want one...
  • "That's why Cinco de Mayo is such a party" Here is the truth. It's a party in America. Very little celebration (not none, very little)

Now I'm spent Motor.on 01:28, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I am reading these accounts above and have not been able to come to terms with it all based on the research of the battle I have made. This battle is the pinpoint of a big needle, significant in one way, miniscule in another. Please read the latest account of the Battle of Puebla as I have posted it. It at least keeps with the basic story that is consistent with three or four accounts, and begs to dispense of myths and Hollywood enhancements. Magi Media 14:52, 12 August 2006 (UTC)Magi Media

Comment directly from Mexico

As you probably will notice while you read this I am Mexican (spanish-mexican),5 de mayo is definitely not a representative Mexican holiday; when I read about the strategy and tactics used in the fight, the gallantry of those men fighting against the unbeatable legionaries and regular French Army, I feel myself proud of my country men, however that's because I am Mexican, I like history and war events but celebrate that date is for Mexican's as much as Chapultepec's battle in September 13th against US Army, or July 1st when the Mexicans fought and won against Hernan Cortes and his Spanish troops. If the people in US found 5 de mayo as a day to identify themselves with their roots that's fine, sometimes is Mexico when the national football team wins a match is almost a national holiday, but we must stay clear in the fact that 5 de mayo is an important day just for the people in the states, if American, European, African or Asian guys want to be part of the celebration that's great because "Is a day to get party in the US". I have celebrated St Patricks Day's twice, I went to an Irish Pub (here en Mexico city) get drunk with a couple Guiness, and none of the English guys around my had a complain about me because I was celebrating in that important day for them... what did I say?? English? wrong right? No offense I am trying clarify that sometime we don’t know why is the reason of a celebration, in fact I was not really sure if they were Irish, Scottish, English, Germans, French, Americans or Mexicans, we were all celebrating must of us with no idea why we were doing so. Upon the euphoria my girlfriend asked me why is SPD celebrated and I was unable to answer her, I feel ashamed of myself then I decided to check wiki because I felt that it was a quite strange being drunk having no idea why. Anyway some facts about the Battle of Puebla would be nice to see in the article, for example there were indians with machetes fighting against Suavos, the Zacapoaxtlas indians (and other Puebla's native groups)formed a battalion recruited by the Mexican Army, indeed they were fighting with carabins and machetes, this wasn't a disadvantage because they knew perfectly their surroundings of course they were not the main force but guerrilla warfare was used, much like the Vietnamise recruited by green berets against Viet-Cong. I would like to add this kind of information about the battle but first of all as you probably have realized I must improve my English.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Skull13 (talk • contribs)

I think Skull had a few too many before he wrote this!!--Magi Media 06:23, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
If you have information to add about the battle, please add it to Battle of Puebla if it is not there already. This article is about the US celebration.--Rockero 19:54, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree I'm married to one..he thought it was an American holiday..he was so ignorant about the history..never knew about the French. --Rosa 04:19, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Alternative History

I am a history student attending a university located near Cancun in a ciudad called Herradura. As an elective I chose a course on Counterfactual history.( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_history) Ancient text found at many worship sites have made mention of the birth of a savior who would bring the mexican peasants to an age of Leche e Miel <Milk and Honey> The legends are simliar to those of the Catholic belief. Sadly the birthing did not go as one would hope and the birth mother passed. To top it off the child was born with physical defects. This obviously was unacceptable by those who chose to belive. For the fact that this miracle child would not be less than perfect. They moved to another room and decided since the mother had passed that it would be best to destroy the child and tell the masses that the child was taken to a place where it would be taught the ways of an avatar. This way they could keep the "hope alive". One of the women who was there as a mid wife heard this in disbelief and quickly wisked the child away. This did not matter to those with the belief as the problem they had encountered had "solved itself" and the masses were told the child who would save them was born and they all celebrated with happiness in there hearts the date of this was May 5th. Unfortunately, The mid wife being past her prime was unable to nurse the child properly. In order to keep the child healthy she would in the night creep to local farms and milk the goats so that she could nourish the child. This however did not give the child the nourishment it needed. The mid wife tried one more thing to mix protien rich blood with the milk. A newborn child needs many feedings and the constant blood letting of the mid wife was taking its toll. Although the childs strength had grown the mid wife had been getting older and eventually passed leaving the mishapen child to fend for itself. Being raised on goats milk and blood, the child needing milk had found its way to a local farm and tried to suckle a mother goat. The goat would not stand still and the child on accident grasping the mother goat had cased the goat to fall on something < a branch or a farm tool maybe> and the goat was killed. The child began to suck on the mother goats udder as now the animal was no longer moving. The farmer hearing the odd noises coming from his yard came outside to see a misshapen child covered in blood nursing itself on his goat. He was terrified and staggered back into his farmhouse. When his wife asked him what was wrong all he could say was Chuppa kabra. So May 5th is the celebrating Chuppa Kabra's Birthday.

I am not a fan of history revisionism (alternative history). I am also very suspicious of stories that begin: "An ancient text found near a long-lost burial site..." Just go straight to: "Once upon a time..." The above story is horrorific. Let's tell the one about the boy raised by wolves again. And so much for a college degree from Cancun!--Magi Media 13:40, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Lost in translation?

Americans more than likely choose to do it there way because it is their country. In order to help respect the history or belief of anothers country Americans have CHOSEN to compromise. Not all Americans are aware of the history of Mexico, just as you would not expect all Mexicans to be up on American History. If there is a "lost in translation" issue I would say it was a minor point. If Americans choose to do it there way or they use capital letters, the meanins are the same.