Talk:Cimmerians

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"In the early twentieth century the home of the Cimmerians in the Caucasus led to their association with the ancient Aryans."

Whatever is meant, it ought to be expressed clearly.

S.

-- alll i have to say is that ir eally love you!

User 194.44.198.45 inserted "Ukraine and" into the who lived in the south of modern-day Ukraine and Russia,. This sentence doesn't look consistent - if they lievd in the south of modern-day Russia, then they could live in the north of modern-day Ukraine. Despite it is possible that Cimmerians lived in territory of modern Ukraine too, I don't have documental evidences of this, and I wouldn't rely on words of 194.44.198.45 who is known for his biased Ukrainian nationalistic and often misleading changes. Therefore I revert insertion of Ukraine here. [[User:Drbug| Dr Bug ]] 11:30, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

This sentence doesn't look consistent - if they lievd in the south of modern-day Russia, then they could live in the north of modern-day Ukraine.
Please note
Perhaps You forgot the Crimean peninsula is a part of Ukraine?
I'm really tired by you Ukrainian nationalists. I didn't mean that Crimea is a part of Russian Federation.
I have fixed the article, now it should look fine. [[User:Drbug| Dr Bug ]] 21:37, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Contents

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[edit] Removed totally unsubstantiated edits presented as fact

I reverted Moosh 88's edits that stated the following:

1. The Cimmerians were an ancient Indo-European, who are believed to have been of Thraco-Phrygian origin.

  • We don't know for sure that they spoke anything like what we would call a Indo-European language, although if you have evidence that they did, or that they were Thracians, it would be relevant. Actually, the king name Sandakhshatra with -khshatra ending does seem to be Indo-European, but of the Indo-Aryan (satem) family, not Thracian or Phrygian (centum). Even so it is premature to conclude that the people were Indo-Europeans from this, since foreign-imposed kings often had such names, eg the Mitanni... More solid research needs to be added, not speculation.

2. The Cimmerians moved to the south of modern-day Ukraine (Crimea and northern Black sea coast) and Russia (Black Sea coast and Caucasus), a little after 1200 BC from an unknown location.

  • More speculation. Cimmerians are not mentioned in any records until the 8th century (see article).

3. Some scholors {sic} believe that the Cimmerians either came from Hungary or Romania or, less hypothetically, inhabited those countries as well.

  • Ok, this admits that it is speculation, so we might be able to stick this further along in the article, but probably not in the intro.

4. The Scythians took over the area around the 8th and 7th century BC.

  • Actually, this traditional view is based mainly on Herodotus, but it has been more recently called into question, so all sides of the story need to be presented. Codex Sinaiticus 22:04, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

5. something to speculate/ponder: I am 13 and did research in the Cimmerians. Most of their tools were crafted from wood or bone!

[edit] Celts/Germans

afaics, the question is whether Proto-Germanic or Proto-Celtic (or both) entered Europe with the Cimmerians. It's not a question of originating near the Black Sea, it likely originated there anyway, as PIE, but it's a question of reaching western Europe in 2000 BC vs. 700 BC. There may have been some influence by "Thraco-Cimmerians" on both Proto-Germanic and Proto-Celtic, but the point is that it was influence, not wholesale replacement. Incidentially, the arrival of the Indo-Europeans around 2000 BC will not have been wholesale replacement either. All these 'migrations' ever only concern a minority of population. The Anglo-Saxon invasion is considered an extreme case: They hardly interacted with the Britons at all, except for pushing them back. Yet genetically, only about 50% of the population was replaced. Less extreme invasions will replace even a lower percentage of the indigenous population. So even a Cimmierian superstratum of a few percent of the population could have changed the language completely. dab () 21:26, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

  • Hi, first off I'm really pleased with all the new information added to this article as more reliable knowledge comes in; I have learned much as the article is really starting to take shape. Thanks especially to dab and the others who have contributed lately.
There's no doubt a Cimmerian stratum might have been able to contribute in significant ways to the earlier strata; possibly even language itself. There is an Irish legend of a Phenius Farsa (abundant variant spellings) who allegedly "composed the Goidelic language and the Ogam alphabet" while in Scythia. Other lists do mention him as a king of Scythia, although ruling somewhat later on (the Irish legends place the events immediately after the fall of the Tower of Babel)... Then there is the "Germani" passage in Herodotus (detailing the makeup of the Scythian tribes). The link to "Regnal Chronologies" of the Cimmerians is particularly elucidating, tying in with the Sicambri. Regards, Codex Sinaiticus 21:51, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
I agree entirely that the migrations where cultural, not wholesale movements of people that completely pushed out the natives. But I'm not suggesting that, it's those who identify Celts and Germans as being Cimmerian in origin that are. Hence the disclaimers "An intepretation of the spread of Indo-European culture and languages as being the result of large-scale migration rather than a transfer of ideas" and "this intepretation of pre-history is considered controversial.".
Interesting. You also have Snorri Sturluson's account that the Æsir came from the Don region and settled in Scandinavia in the first part of the Heimskringla. It is usually seen as his own invention, but who knows?--Wiglaf 06:37, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

very interesting stuff. We need a Phenius Farsa article. It's so charming because it's really at the edge of historical tradition. It seems quite clear that something came out of "Scythia". In Assyria, the Cimmerians were just barbarians who had to be driven back. In Europe, they (viz., their fellow migrants who were pushed west rather than south) made a lasting impression. The Urnfield culture starts to transform around 750 BC. The Nordic Bronze Age follows suit around 600 BC; it appears that the European Iron Age was triggered by this migration. I do not suppose that either the Celtic or Germanic language came to Europe then, we need them here earlier, for "Italo-Celtic" and "Balto-Germanic", as well as for Centum reasons. But both the Celts and the Germans thought that the migrants were so cool that they named their dynasties and tribes after them, as well as keeping legends of Scythian origin. I think this is comparable to the Varangian migration to Russia (where they established dynasties, while the language remained unaffected), and the Norman invasion of England (where there was some lasting superstratum influence on the language, but still the conquerors switched to the language of their subjects after 300 years or so). Is there an academic term for all this? Maybe we can gather it all on European Iron Age, since this article should probably remain confined to the Cimmerians that pushed across the Caucasus, not the European "para-Cimmerians" ("Thraco-Cimmerians"). dab () 07:19, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Hi dab, it took me long enough, but I have finally made a Fenius Farsa article; just a stub for now, but click on "What links here" for that page to see all the variant spellings I have found (so far) across the wiki! There is so much data on this guy, let alone spellings of his name, that a lot could be added here, should be fun... Also we will have to get some info from "Regnal Chronologies"... ፈቃደ 17:02, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
This article might interest you, although Thor Heyerdal puts the migration to a later date. I personally don't believe that 60 BC is reasonable because, Snorri aligns Fjölnir with Augustus and so Odin has to be several generations earlier. I must warn, though, that this is a favourite domain for crackpot amateur historians in Scandinavia.--Wiglaf 07:40, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
I've heard of it :) Heyerdahl may have been a good sailor, but that theory is nonsense. The Aesir have a good Proto-Germanic etymology. "Azov actually did have a population at the time of the emigration of the Asas" so what? So did the Easter Island. We are looking at the Cimbri/Gundestrup cauldron connection of course; sure, there were connections between Eastern and Northern Europe all the time, but Germanic paganism must have almost reached its historical form by then. Not so in 600 BC, those are Proto-Germanic times, and the Cimmerian connection runs much deeper than a note by Snorri. Snorri may have borrowed a vague "Scythian" tradition when he tried to rationalize the Aesir as a historical dynasty. dab () 08:56, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes it is possible that Snorri recorded traditions of a group of tough Cimmerians who created the Yngling dynasty. That their location of origin was maintained intact is realistic. Hervarar saga shows that even numerous Black sea region place names could be maintained intact during 1000 years of oral transmission, and Scandinavia always had good contacts with the Black sea region (early chariots and stirrups).--Wiglaf 09:15, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
How is that for the appeasement of Anti-Normanist Pan-Slavicists? The Rus were really just Cimmerians returning home to the motherland after an extended Holiday in Denmark :p dab () 10:36, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Cimmerians as the Aesir

There are actually a number of Swedish novels that set the immigration of the Aesir to Scandinavia at 700 BC, here is one of them.--Wiglaf 09:31, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

The first lines say: War is approaching Vanaheim (i.e. Uppland). Farms are burnt down and pillaged by Aesir who have intruded from the east. The priestess Freya travels to the enemy to broker peace, but the meeting with the chieftain's son Thor changes everything. Because a more forbidden love has never been. It is all about the formation of Proto-Germanic culture and mythology at the end of the Nordic Bronze Age.--Wiglaf 09:34, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

interesting, and very Cimmerian-like :) but the Aesir of course were the PIE Ansuros, "deities, spirit-like beings"; they didn't just "intrude from the East" one morning. dab () 10:39, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
If it was derogative such as "demon", it could have been an effective ethnic slur :).--Wiglaf 12:32, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
you wouldn't dare to mock demons, in those days. If they help you, they are gods, if they harm you, they are demons, that's the whole difference. Of course you'd pretend even the demons would help you, not to give them any mischievous ideas :) wearing your horned bronze helmet, standing on a hilltop during a thunderstorm shouting "all Ansures are bastards!" was only for the lunatically brave dab () 12:58, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
You could also explain it as ehumerism, like Snorri. Snorri wrote that the Aesir became gods after their deaths. Presumably, a Cimmerian aristocracy could become Aesir after their deaths. Still in the Viking Age, dead people could become elves.--Wiglaf 13:08, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
euhemerism it was; we would call it snorrism today, had Euhemeros not beaten Snorri to the idea :) of course even true pagans are "euhemerists" to a certain extent, in as much as they claim descent from gods for their royalty. So there may be something pre-Christian to Snorris tale: Wermund is, after all, Odin's grandson, and the great-great-grandfather of Icel. dab () 13:25, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Dang, I never learn to spell that word. Nothing, though, beats the divine origins of the Yngling family tree ;-).--Wiglaf 13:40, 13 September 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Cimmerians Britannica

Per people's information I found this in Britannica 2006:

begin:

Cimmerians

member of an ancient people living north of the Caucasus and the Sea of Azov, driven by the Scythians out of southern Russia, over the Caucasus, and into Anatolia toward the end of the 8th century BC. Ancient writers sometimes confused them with the Scythians. Most scholars now believe that the Cimmerians assaulted Urartu (Armenia) about 714 BC, but in 705, after being repulsed by Sargon II of Assyria, they turned aside into Anatolia and in 696–695 conquered Phrygia. In 652, after taking Sardis, the capital of Lydia, they reached the summit of their power. Their decline soon began, and their final defeat may be dated from 637 or 626, when they were routed by Alyattes of Lydia. Thereafter, they were no longer mentioned in historical sources but probably settled in Cappadocia, as its Armenian name, Gamir, suggests.

The origin of the Cimmerians is obscure. Linguistically they are usually regarded as Thracian or as Iranian, or at least to have had an Iranian ruling class. They probably did live in the area north of the Black Sea, but attempts to define their original homeland more precisely by archaeological means, or even to fix the date of their expulsion from their country by the Scythians, have not so far been completely successful. One theory identifies them with what is known to archaeologists as the “Catacomb” culture. This culture was ousted from southern Russia by the “Srubna” culture advancing from beyond the Volga just as the Cimmerians were ousted by the invading Scythians, but that upheaval took place in the second half of the 2nd millennium BC, and a gap of several centuries separates it from the appearance of historic Cimmerians in Asia. Some authorities identify them with “Thraco-Cimmerian” remains of the 8th–7th century BC found in the southwestern Ukraine and in central Europe; these may perhaps be looked upon as traces of the western branch of the Cimmerians, who, under fresh Scythian pressure, eventually invaded the Hungarian plain and survived there until about 500 BC

[edit] Alyattes?

How could Alyattes II rout the Cimmerians in 637-626, if he was reigning from 619-560? Soczyczi 18:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Maybe Alyattes was a general before he became king. Or someone made a mistake with the dates. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.253.103.116 (talk) 00:34, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Gomer?

"As the eldest son of Japheth and the father of Ashkenaz, Riphath and Togarmah, his descendants thus represent one of the major branches of the Japhethic race."

There's no such thing as the Japhetic race. This is parahistorical nonsense. Whether "Gomer" and "Cimmerian" are related I don't know, but unless you're a biblical literalist, calling the Cimmerians "Japhetic" is ridiculous, and I think it should be removed as it's irrelevant. MaryJones (talk) 04:38, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I am also in agreeance that it should be removed. As to how you can put there is a reference to Cimmerians as Gomer is crazy as there is no solid eveidence to support this and there are many theories that contadict it.

One example of a theory is that the sons of Joktan were the original Iranian (Indo-European) people (i.e Samatians, Persians, Medes, Scythians etc). Surely the Cimmerians could have also fallen under these people? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.45.96.74 (talk) 21:21, 13 May 2008 (UTC)