Talk:Church of Christ (Temple Lot)

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Contents

[edit] Book of Abraham

Does any one know if the Church of Christ believes in Book of Abraham?

I believe they do to some degree, howver, you may want to ask User:John Hamer a Non-LDS historian who is familiar with many of the various sects. Drop him a line on his talk page. He'd know better than most. -Visorstuff 7 July 2005 00:50 (UTC)

The church believes the Bible and the Book of Mormon and only a few modern revelations. The church publishes a concise form of their beliefs in an "Articles of Faith and Practice," and they hold to it closely. They publish the Book of Commandments, but are quick to point out that this is not scripture, but simply a collection of revelations, each of which must be read carefully to determine its origin. You may find a member here and there who reads and accepts such works, but not as a whole.

[edit] Copyright problem?

The recent edit claims to be from a publication from said church. This looks like a copyright problem. Val42 July 7, 2005 01:44 (UTC)

So you should have done something about it. Reverted to previous. -- Cyrius|✎ 08:06, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Is this a faction of the Church of Christ with the Elijah Message

Church of Christ with the Elijah Message talks a lot about this group, and mentions the Article of Faith and Practice. How are these two groups related. It is not clear from either article. Bytebear 00:22, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

This is one of the Fetting Groups; Otto Fetting was an Apostle who was excommunicated about 1930 due to a controversy concerning the exact design and location of a proposed Temple. Fetting led off a splinter group. This group is an extension of one of the splinters led by W.A. Draves. Both Draves and Fetting were visited by the resurrected and glorified John the Baptist (Elijah) in person who dictated messages to them. Dab295 Dab295 15:21, 24 October 2007 (UTC).

[edit] David Whitmer

The article is difficult to word and source properly, especially the section regarding David Whitmer's enormous, almost exclusive influence on the Church's theology. I keep having to go back and edit my own work, because every nuance is important, and should be stated properly. Doniphan 21:56, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

It seems like some good information was lost in this edit. Would someone who knows this topic particularly well mind figuring out what has been taken out that should be reincluded? The Jade Knight 08:37, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
(I moved your query here instead of under a subsequent heading 'recent additions/deletions'). The edit was made by myself, I only forgot to log in first. As I explain, "I [kept] having to go back and edit my own work..." Doniphan 12:53, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Membership numbers?

This Temple Lot-ers article specifies 5K members, and 12K Elijah-messagers. The Succession crisis article specifies 12K Temple Lot-ers and an unknown number of EMers. Anyone able to reconcile those numbers? Thx. -- TheEditrix2 17:13, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Church burning incident

The identity of the vandal of the 1990 burning of the church on the Temple Lot has been given as [name redacted] by a number of sources, which I have added. There's been a history of attempts to quash inclusion of this name here in the past, which have led to edit blocks, and any further attempts to do so by reversions will be duly investigated. Snocrates 21:04, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

For my reply (and an explanation of why I changed Snocrates' slanderous heading) please see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Temple_Lot#Jordan_Smith_as_Civil_Rights_Activist

Jsmith 51389 (talk) 22:52, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

    • Please. [The man] was convicted of arson. There was no intent to slander, only represent facts gained from sources. Snocrates 01:07, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I've just restored the information Snocrates deleted on December 3, before citations were added. In other words, Snocrates mistakenly(?) deleted "facts gained from sources." If the article names the protester, it should also mention that he pleaded not guilty to those particular charges "on First Amendment grounds" and the article should also state that he claimed the incident was a protest: Verifiable facts which are described or alluded to in the existing citations. Jsmith 51389 (talk) 21:03, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

No, the information was purposefully removed because it was uncited. The current edit's cited reference does not say the First Amendment was argued. The entire article reads:

"A 26-year-old man has been convicted of breaking into a historic church in Independence and setting it ablaze. A Jackson County Circuit Court found [name redacted] of Independence guilty Wednesday of second-degree arson and second-degree burglary. Jurors recommended that [name redacted] serve four years in prison on the arson charge and one year on the burglary charge. Sentencing was set for March 1. [name redacted] earlier testified that he torched the 88-year-old Church of Christ (Temple Lot) on New Year's Day in 1990 on an apparent directive from God. He said his dreams the night before convinced him that God wished him to make a public point. 'At all times, I felt I was obeying a higher power,' [name redacted] said. He said he used a cigarette lighter to ignite parts of the church. Officials saved many church documents and artifacts, but the structure was destroyed."

Also, the quote that says the protest involved the claim that "war is coming to America" does not appear in any of the 4 sources that are cited. A reference is needed for it; I've added a {cn} tag. Snocrates 21:55, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
The watchman.org article contains a detailed explanation, read the part which refers to the biblical book of Ezekiel. Gee whiz. And I told you already, PLEASE DON'T POST QUOTATIONS FROM POORLY-RESEARCHED ARTICLES INVOLVING MY NAME HERE WITHOUT FIRST POSTING YOUR NAME. You are harrassing me, plain and simple. Please stop, now. Jsmith 51389 (talk) 23:29, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
The watchman does not include that phrase, which is included in quotes. If you want to cite the watchman, then it needs to be rephrased to have it not look like the article is quoting a source. Don't edit my own comments again or I will report you for vandalism. I am not harassing you; I think we happen to have the same pages on our watchlist and are both actively engaged in editing and commenting on the articles. There is a difference. Snocrates 23:47, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
hm....I hadn't quite thought of it that way, and maybe I should...my chief concern is that some others besides yourself will come in, and sabotage what we've accomplished so far. And soon, I won't have as much time to watch the page and make edits and corrections, etc. I'm realizing that if you can keep an eye on the page, or ask another experienced editor or administrator to do so in your absence, then I can probably rest easier. P.S., the quotation marks around "War was coming to America" is because that's a paraphrase, not because it's a direct quote. The more exact quotation(s) were expressed on multiple occasions, including in a private meeting with the Church Representative, December 5, 1989. The ridiculous misquote about 'communists invading Missouri with chemical weapons' was a result of that discussion. The man who supposedly said that (to the Kansas City Star reporter), recently told me he did NOT say that...& that to his knowledge, the reporter had misquoted every single comment made to her. Jsmith 51389 (talk) 00:18, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] URGENT RE: SECTION DELETED

As per advice from several relevant authorities, I have deleted the offending paragraph in the Temple Lot article, and the identical one at 'Church of Christ Temple Lot.' I am not doing this as an amateur Wikipedia editor, but as the private citizen who is being 'outed' and defamed in two Wikipedia articles (so far). I have been advised to delete the offending passage, and then wait and see who exactly restores it. That person (unless it is a SmackBot, an automatic revert), will in turn be 'outed' and 'named' as the subject of a criminal investigation. Yes, this is a 'legal threat,' and I don't appreciate various inept Wikipedia administrators threatening me in order to dissuade me from complaining to law enforcement about a crime which is being committed: the willful invasion of privacy, and defamation of a U.S. Citizen, in contravention to numerous local, state, and federal laws, as well as in contravention to numerous strict and explicit Wikipedia policies regarding inclusion of a person's name in a Wikipedia article. The following excerpt is just one example of Wikipedia guidelines which have been willfully, persistently and openly ignored and defied by Wikipedia editor after Wikipedia editor. Again...whoever restores the defamatory passage which includes my name--or ANY paragraph, sentence or article which includes my name--will be investigated and [hopefully] prosecuted for doing so. In other words, I WILL PRESS CRIMINAL CHARGES against the perpetrator.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:BLP#Privacy_of_names
Privacy of names
Caution should be applied when naming individuals who are discussed primarily in terms of a single event. When the name of a private individual has not been widely disseminated or has been intentionally concealed (such as in certain court cases), it is often preferable to omit it, especially when doing so does not result in a significant loss of context. When evaluating the inclusion or removal of names, their publication in secondary sources other than news media, such as scholarly journals or the work of recognized experts, should be afforded greater weight than the brief appearance of names in news stories.
Editors should take particular care when considering whether inclusion of the names of private, living individuals who are not directly involved in an article's topic adds significant value. The presumption in favor of the privacy of family members of articles' subjects and other loosely involved persons without independent notability is correspondingly stronger.

Jsmith 51389 (talk) 21:13, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Given that there are so many cited media sources which state his name, I can't justify removing omitting it against consensus.. however, we should consider that this sort of situation is what the Privacy of names portion of WP:BLP was intended to address. While I can see both sides of the argument here - I have to think of how I'd feel if it was me, who many years ago whilst in my own little corner of the world, did something that was against the law and happened to get a bit of press coverage, and now many years later I come to discover it is memorialized for eternity on a top 10 website. Despite the legal threats, for which I've blocked Jsmith_51389 - please consider omitting the name from the article as a courtesy to another human being in the digital age, who must support himself & his family - despite things in his past. --Versageek 21:30, 18 December 2007 (UTC)