Talk:Chung Do Kwan

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Chung Do Kwan article.
Article policies
Martial arts Portal
This page is part of the Wikipedia Martial arts Project.

Please use these guidelines and suggestions to help improve this article
if you think something is missing, please help us improve them!

You may also wish to read the project's Notability guide.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.

Contents

[edit] History

I have editted the Hanja and Hangul that were originally provided for the Cheongdogwan. The Cheongdogwan, founded by Lee Wonkuk, was the House of the Blue Wave. The previous incorrect Hanja were for a Cheongdogwan offshoot, the Jeongdogwan, House of Right Stepping, founded by Lee Wongyoo in 1954.

The Hanja for Chung Do Kwan is wrong. The Hanja DO means WAY, as where the Hanja in Chung Do Kwan means WAVES. Two different ones. April 2007, Bigzilla

That would be LEE, Young Woo. --Bigzilla 05:07, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Also, LEE, Young Woo just passed away in August 2006.--Bigzilla 05:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Um Woon Kyu, is one of the most senior Taekwondoin in the world today, however, he is not the highest ranking or most senior. He is among many 9th Dan, but not the most senior.

Also, the Kwans formed the KTA, not the WTF. The WTF was formed by members from a group of nations, not from just members of the KTA.

The Kukkiwon was developed from the KTA--Bigzilla 05:08, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

It is incorrect to state that schools from the Chung Do Kwan line have less emphsis on competition sparring. All Kwans lines were and are equal in their support of competition. Actually today, the idea of Kwan affiliation has almost completely disapeared. Yes, a few schools, mostly in the USA, teach about their Kwan roots, but that is rare. --Bigzilla 06:13, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Is that so rare? I'm a couple 'generations' removed from learning from Duk Sung Son, but have trained under him, and I have been made known of our Kwan history. 須藤 14:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Indeed it is. Your Kwan history would be Duk Sung Son's personal Kwan (do you know the name of his Kwan?), which has not been Chung Do Kwan for a very long time now.--Bigzilla 06:52, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

He told us he train under Won Kook Lee and was his most senior student. He said he trained under the name Sung Do Kwan. Others (his direct students) have told that this became Chung Do Kwan, and was brought under the more umbrella term of Tae Kwon Do later. Son doesn't talk all that much, though. 須藤 14:31, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

All very interresting. In our school, we have Pyong-An I through Pyong-An V, and Kuk Mu I through Kuk Mu V. We have others, such as Chul Gi I & Chul Gi II, Pal Say, Ship Su, and Yumbi (unsure of the spellings). 須藤 06:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Son was his second most senior student. Here is a list of seniors: (1) Yoo Ung Jun, (2) Son Duk Sung, (3) Uhm Woon Kyu, (4) Hyun Jong Myun, (5) Min Woon Sik, (6) Han In Sook, (7) Jung Young Taek, (8) Kang Suh Chong, (9) Baek Joon Ki, (10) Nam Tae Hi, (11) Ko Jae Chun, (12) Kwak Kuen Sik, (13) Kim Suk Kyu, (14) Han Cha Kyo, (15) Jo Sung Il, (16) Lee Sa Man, (17) Rhee Jhoon Goo (Jhoon Rhee), and (18) Kim Bong Sik.

Son made his own Kwan years ago, calling it "Kuk Mu Kwan" after the Kang Suh's Kwan.--Bigzilla 04:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Here is a translation of a Korean Taekwondo history book, Enjoy! http://www.martialartsresource.com/anonftp/pub/the_dojang/digests/history.html --Bigzilla 04:56, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Um Woon Kyu, the President of Kukkiwon, wrote an article about how to write Taekwondo. He said it was written today as one word, like baseball is no longer written as Base Ball, Taekwondo has become recognized world wide and should be written as one word. Taekwondo, not Tae Kwon Do.--Bigzilla 04:11, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

It is ridiculous to ask that most Americans consider Jhoon Rhee, Chung Do Kwan and Chang Hon forms to be the original Taekwondo. You have been to like, what, 10 Taekwondo schools in the USA to make such a determination? So I changed it.

Also, UM, Woon Kyu disagrees with you about the Chung Do Kwan belt color system you listed, and the Poomsae for each. Simply write him, or Hae Man Park at the Kukkiwon and ask. So I deleted that wrong information. Oh, Taegeuk 8 is required for 1st Dan/Poom, not Koryo, that is for 2nd Degree, and that website, it is not a good source since it goes against Taekwondo Chung Do Kwan, Korea policy on Dan promotion regulations. --Bigzilla 08:35, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I am glad I came upon a Kwan that teaches it's history if it is so rare. Quietmartialartist 20:29, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

All Kwan's make historical information available to there members, there is nothing rare about that. What is rare however, is being an ACTUAL member of a Kwan. Every real Taekwondo practitioner is from some Kwan's roots, however, very few are card carrying members of their Kwan HQ in Korea, meaning besides a Kukkiwon Dan, they also hold a Dan from the HQ in Korea. With that said, since we are talking about Chung Do Kwan, it probably has more card carrying members than any Kwan today, since it has been the most active - via PARK, Hae Man - over the past few decades. --Bigzilla 18:51, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Quietmartialartist, why are you changing WAVES back to WAY? This was discussed in detail, and proved to you on the Taekwondo page by Errant and myself. Have you seen the Hanja on Julian Lim's official Chung Do Kwan Dans? I can send you the Hangul/Hanja article about Chung Do Kwan that list the official Hanja, which shows you it means WAVES. April 26, 2007 Bigzilla.

Handwritten Hanja of UM, Woon Kyu, Kwanjang (Leader) of the Chung Do Kwan clearly shows that Chung Do Kwan means Blue Waves School. See his hand writting of Chung Do Kwan along with his signature, 8th line down: http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb116/bigzilla/KwanUnityDocument1975.jpg

You don't get any better than this. Now evidence shows that it means Blue Waves, NOT Blue Way.

Kindest Regards ~ May 16, 2007. Bigzilla

I believe you can do better. I'm well aware that Um Woon Kyu is under the impression that Chung Do Kwan translates as "Blue Wave School". You told me yourself. Show me a picture written by Won Kuk Lee personally.

I'm not just changing Waves back to Way. I'm restoring an entire paragraph that was here long before our discussion started(March 19, 2007 to be exact). I wish the person that first added that had been a Wikipedia user so I could ask for their sources. Might I point out that I am only editing the bit below the half way point and leaving the text at the very beginning of the page alone? That's your Kwan's translation prominently at the front of the article. That paragraph is more or less my Kwan's exact translation and description of Chung Do Kwan. As far as I know no one I know added it. I even edited the paragraph to say, "Therefore Chung Do Kwan may be translated as..."

Until I speak with Master Choi and get his references, perhaps some of his pictures, I would appreciate it if you showed me some courtesy and left Technique and Philosophy alone. Quietmartialartist 12:11, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I would appreciate it if you would show some integrity and stop changing Waves to Way, until you provide some solid, reliable proof. To this point, it is only your opinion that Waves is really Way. Kindest Regards, May 21, 2007 Bigzilla

[edit] Tae Hi Nam

I feel this newly added section should be deleted. It has superfluous statements that give no facts, such as

  • "If Choi was the guiding personality and "brains" behind Tae Kwon Do's early development, Tae Hi Nam was the physical manifestation, someone who was capable of physically showing the concepts that Choi wanted to get across"

and

  • "It is also believed that..."

Facts are not beliefs. 須藤 16:26, 6 December 2006 (UTC) Thanks for the citations,須藤 07:26, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Taekkyon

Won Kuk Lee never learned Taekkyon, why would anyone state he did?--Bigzilla 06:04, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

"An Informal History of Chung Do Kwan" by Dohrenwend refers to GGM Lee as a Tae Kyon student. Additionally, an article in Tae Kwon Do Times from about a year ago by one of the senior Chung Do Kwan students (I forget who) refers to Chung Do Kwan as a combination of Tae Kyon, Shotokan, and Lee's interpretations of martial arts. OringTKD 05:13, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I say the moon is made of green cheese, does that make it so? Dohrenwend needs to back up that statement with proof. Yong Bok Lee, the leader of Taekkyon in Korea disagrees with him.

Please produced the article.

1. Taekkyon kept excellent records. 2. The World Taekkyon Association, and the Korea Taekkyon Association both state that no Taekwondo Kwan founders learned Taekkyon. Bigzilla 8-9-07

Won Kuk Lee, upon graduating from Central University Law School, left Japan and traveled around the Orient, from say 1930 to 1944. Who's to say he didn't study a little Taekkyon from someone who wasn't the best at record keeping? Quietmartialartist 14:59, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] fact tags

Please read WP:CITE before removing fact tags. Some of the refs. sounded like book titles can a ISBN be added for these? --Nate 15:11, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Why did you tag that as citation needed? Read the modern history of taekwondo book listed at the bottom of the page, it's all in there, and many other books as well.--Bigzilla 11:29, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

All the citations on this page are in the modern history of taekwondo book. Folks should read the book. --Bigzilla 11:31, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

The point is what book? Can you provide the ISBN so it's easy to find it if someone dose want to look it up. There is very likely more than own book with a similar title, I'm not disputing the facts, I just want to know where they came from, as per WP:ATT. Specific claims need in-line citations --Nate 12:15, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

They came from here. These books have been listed on the Chung Do Kwan section under further reading.

  1. A Modern History of Taekwondo 1999 (Korean) Kyong Myung Lee and Kang Won Sik ISBN 89-358-0124-0
  2. Global Taekwondo 2003 (English) Kyo Yoon Lee ISBN 89-952721-4-7
  3. A Guide to Taekwondo 1996 (English) Kyo Yoon Lee ISBN 8975000648
  4. Kukkiwon 25th Anniversary Text 1997 (Korean) Un Yong Kim --Bigzilla 06:11, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

Quitemartialartist contantly changes to Chung Do Kwan page to show the translations matches that of his school. However, all the evidence provided on the Taekwondo discussion page, and proof posted there, show the translation "Blue Waves School" is correct.

It seems Quitemartialartist is angry and can not accept the facts, what can we do about this continuos vandalism? May 21, 2007 Bigzilla

Not neccisarilly often Chong is also the romanization (in the MCR-system) for 정 instead of 청 where 정 stands for 'justice' and 'righteousness'. In new romanization 정 would be Jeong, but a lot of times you still see Chong, of jung (jung do kwan..!!!) of Chung. Maybe we can somehow make this clear in the article, since quite a lot of schools in Korea are called 정도관 too. Kbarends 19:48, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

We can say neccesarilly, becasue Korean Hangul, like you provided above, is based on Korean Hanja/Hanmoon. The Hanja tells us what the Hangul means. Example the Hangul for Do can mean over 20 very different things. It is only when we have the Chinese Hanja, we can know what the Hangul means. I have offered several solid, reliable, and authentic articles that clearly shows the Hanja means Blue Waves School. There is no doubt. It is just that QM refuses to accept this fact, and does not want to accept the truth. May 21, 2007 Bigzilla

Please stop complaining Bigzilla. Just compromise until I can provide my evidence. After June 25 you can change in back and I will apologize for arguing. I am not changing it back out of anger as I have clearly explained at least twice, but I must admit you are trying my patience. It would seem you're more interested in proving me wrong than being reasonable.Quietmartialartist 01:56, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I have submitted many articles of proof, you, none. Again, here is another addition. A Korean language interview with Won Kuk Lee. The article clearly shows BLUE WAVES SCHOOL in Hanja. Of course. Now you stop being unreasonable and stop changing the article until you provide solid proof as I have. Until then, it remains, Blue Waves.

Ref: http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb116/bigzilla/WonKukLeearticle1stpagescan.jpg Ref: http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb116/bigzilla/WonKukLeearticle2ndpagescan.jpg

By the way, your own Grandmaster In Mook Kim diagrees with you.

“The ACTA can trace its roots directly to Grandmaster Lee Won-kuk, who founded Chung Do Kwan and developed the largest civilian gym, the Gym of the Blue Wave.” See it here: http://kimsacta.com/kimsblog/?page_id=25

If that is not good enough, ask your Grandmaster at askgmkim@kimsacta.com

Again, I have offered SOLID proof that Chung Do Kwan is Blue Waves School. This from an interview with Won Kuk Lee himself, to your own Grandmaster! Where is your proof? May 21, 2007 Bigzilla

QM, I think it is up to you to provide the evidence first. Until you have the evidence, you should leave the article like it is. You can wait until the 25th, can't you? Kbarends 06:36, 22 May 2007 (UTC)



QMA please. Quietmartialartist. If I have to be the bigger person, so be it. I will leave it alone until then.

Bigzilla, please stop calling random people my Grandmasters. I've heard dirty under-handed things about 90% of the people you have done so.

My lineage: Gichin Funakoshi - Won Kuk Lee - Woon Kyu Um(For the early years. After Master Choi came to America with Grandmaster Lee, Lee was his sole teacher.) - Duk Kyung Choi - My teacher - Me.

Here is proof as solid as you can get that my studio is directly descended from the original school. This picture was taken in 1960 during a reunion when Grandmaster Lee came back from Japan. I was going to wait and present it with my other evidence after Master Choi pointed out who was who in the picture and translated what is written there in Hanja, but seeing as how you're so antsy about getting some evidence here you go: Historic Photo. and Historic Photo2 Search the internet as much as you want. I've never been able to find this picture, and I would be genuinely surprised if you did. That's how old and how rare this photo is. I'll let Errant translate what it says.

Quote QMA, April 8th: "There’s a picture hanging in my teacher’s studio of the first Kwan with everyone who was anyone in Tae Kwon Do at that time and Won Kuk Lee is fittingly in the center of it."

These are the two people I do know: Gen. Choi is sitting to the left of Grandmaster Lee, and Master Choi is sitting to the right of two men directly underneath Grandmaster Lee. According to Master Choi, everyone standing up behind Grandmaster Lee is prominent in Tae Kwon Do today.

As for your argument that anyone other than Grandmaster Lee deserves the most credit for how Tae Kwon Do came to be today, answer me this: Why is Won Kuk Lee at the center of this picture as late as 1960 and everyone else from Um Woon Kyu, to Gen. Choi, to In Mook Kim, to however many other "Masters" are merely around him? Because he is the protagonist of Modern Tae Kwon Do, even yes, well after it was given the "official" name.

By the way, my teacher said that you are way off to suggest that the name was given in 1965:

Quote Bigzilla, April 7th: "External influences should not be conbined with Modern Taekwondo because, they are exactly that, external. Chung Do Kwan, and all Kwans called what they did KARATE until 1965, so they were not Taekwondo until that time. Over the next ten years following 1965 where the formative years of Modern Taekwondo, but not before that time."

In fact, the Modern Tae Kwon Do page even disagrees with you: "Following taekwondo's official creation on April 11, 1955..."

There is some of your solid evidence.Quietmartialartist 17:54, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Soild evidence??? Still, you offer Zero evidence that Chung Do Kwan is Blue Way School. Where is it? I am waiting.

Your teacher has a lot to learn about Taekwondo, and you are confused about what I stated. First, the name Taekwondo was decided by the "Naming Committee" on April 11, 1955. However, no one really liked the name. It took over 10 years before the name Taekwondo became official and used by all the merged Kwans, on August 5, 1965. Do you know what happened on that day to make the name official?

As for Won Kuk Lee, yes, he was very responsible for the beginnings of what we call Taekwondo, however, he has very little to do with what we know as Taekwondo today.

Thanks for those photos, very nice. The hanja says it is a Dan testing (Korea Taekwondo Assoc.) At that test, Won Kuk Lee was very upset and lectured all those present about how he did not like the new trainees uniforms, attitudes etc. There are more pictures available, of the actual testing, and of Won Kuk Lee dishing out his critique.

Still, you have not provided even one piece of evidence that Chung Do Kwan is Blue WAY school. May 22, 2007 Bigzilla

Solid evidence about a previous argument and that I have just as or more right to argue about this as you. Solid evidence for Blue Way School? What don't you understand about JUNE 25th? I won't be seeing Master Choi until then. June 25th is just under a month away. Stop heckling me for it now. If I come up with evidence before then, rest assured, I will post it.

Again, might I point out that the Tae Kwon Do article still disagrees with you: Quote Wikipedia: "Following taekwondo's official creation on April 11, 1955"

Quote Bigzilla: "As for Won Kuk Lee, yes, he was very responsible for the beginnings of what we call Taekwondo, however, he has very little to do with what we know as Taekwondo today." By that logic, the bombing of Pearl Harbor, the American Declaration of Independence, and the fall of the Roman Empire are all irrelevant events. History would be very different without them. Just as Tae Kwon Do would be very different without the contributions of Won Kuk Lee. And yet, he isn't mentioned once in the Tae Kwon Do article anywhere. That's going to change after I see Master Choi and receive my response from the Korean Embassy.

Quote Bigzilla: "At that test, Won Kuk Lee was very upset and lectured all those present about how he did not like the new trainees uniforms, attitudes etc." It says all that? Or are insinuating that you were there? Quietmartialartist 15:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

It does not matter what Master Duk Choi says, his word is not as credible as the sources I offered. It matters what tangible proof he can provide. You might want to contact him ahead of time, so he can bring proof.

The Taekwondo article does not disagree with me. The name Taekwondo was "officially" put forth that day, but it was not "officially" accept by the Kwan's until 1965.

For a number of years between 1955 and 1965, all the unified Kwans "Officially" used the name "Tae-Soo-Do" instead of Taekwondo. Even the Chung Do Kwan and the Oh Do Kwan. They all decided to do this, AFTER the Taekwondo name was "officially" put forth. Again, do you know why?

Won Kuk Lee taught Karate. His students, and students of other Kwan's made radical changes to the Karate they learned and created old Taekwondo. That old Taekwondo was also chnaged, and continues to change to this day, and is very different than what Won Kuk Lee taught. He had no direct influence on Modern Taekwondo.

I was not at that Dan testing. I have a number of Korean language articles and documents, including photos of that test and have spoken with seniors who were participants in that test. That is how I know.

If you feel he should be mentioned in the Taekwondo article, then a roots/Kwan section should be considered that names all the Kwan founders. May 23, 2007 Bigzilla



Master Duk Kyung Choi's credibility isn't for you to say. No more than me concerning your Master's credibility. I will try to be in a position that I can ask him ahead of time for the evidence.

Quote Wikipedia: "Another request from the Korean government for unification resulted in the formation of the Korea Tae Soo Do Association, which changed its name back to the Korean Taekwondo Association in 1965 following a change of leadership." Is that the answer you're looking for?

I'm going to correct you: Won Kuk Lee taught his students the basics of martial arts. By your logic, any successful Mcdojang is worth mention and considered a true martial art. Your masters are exempt from that qualification because they got their start from and practiced with a real martial artist. That is, of course, if I'm right to surmise that your teacher(s) were trained by Um Woon Kyu and that is the reason you think he deserves the most credit. What is your lineage? If you have one.

Quote Bigzilla: "I have a number of Korean language articles and documents, including photos of that test..." You've got my attention. Post them. Show me your "evidence". I also have a question for you: Where was that picture taken?

A roots/Kwan section, while a good idea, doesn't really concern the topic at hand. I think Grandteacher will have his own section when the Korean Embassy's response gets back. ;) Quietmartialartist 01:43, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

If Duk Choi is teaching you mis-information, then his credibility is at stake. Your so-called correction has no validity. Won Kuk Lee called what he taught "Tang Soo Do", which means Karate Do", not martial arts. Specifically, Shotokan (Pine Waves School), as in Blue Pine.

My lineage? Unlike you, I am an actual member of my Kwan, but, that is of no importance here. Only your proof of your claims, of which so far you have provided NONE.

If you want to know more about this Dan test with Won Kuk Lee, after his return to Korea, visit this link. http://www.lacancha.com/leewonguk.html

Who is Grandteacher LOL. May 23, 2007 Bigzilla

  • Quote Bigzilla: "You already said you would offer proof ~~ It has been months, and you still offer no proof of your claims." May 21, 2007
  • "So until you offer soild proof, stop changing the page or it will be reported as vandalism." May 21, 2007 Bigzilla
  • "Where is your proof?" May 21, 2007
  • "Still, you have offer up ZERO proof." May 21, 2007
  • "...I thought I would give you a chance to provide the proof you say you have, but have yet to produce." May 21, 2007
  • "Soild evidence??? Still, you offer Zero evidence that Chung Do Kwan is Blue Way School. Where is it? I am waiting." May 22, 2007 Bigzilla
  • "Still, you have not provided even one piece of evidence that Chung Do Kwan is Blue WAY school." May 22, 2007 Bigzilla
  • "Only your proof of your claims, of which so far you have provided NONE." May 23, 2007 Bigzilla
  • "...still you have offered nothing that even remotely proves Chung Do Kwan as Blue Way." May 23, 2007 Bigzilla

I heard you the first time. I have posted one piece of evidence:

Quote Dakin Burdick: "Lee Won-kuk (Lee Won-gook) founded the Chongdokwan (True Path Hall) after his return from Japan in January 1944." (Found on page 3 out of 10)

Dakin Burdick agrees with me, because after all, 道 can mean either Hall or Way. Whereas 濤 only means Large waves.

Now onto my response to your above comments: The same can be said about your teachers. My correction has plenty of validity. You are just too shortsighted to see it; Won Kuk Lee taught Kwan leaders and my teacher's teacher a martial art. From that they created their own. For that reason, Grandteacher, by whom I mean Won Kuk Lee, deserves irrevocable homage.

Your lineage is very important. I suggested that you may not have one and yet you still fail to present it. I am growing increasingly suspicious of the possibility of whether or not you're a "true" martial artist at all. I believe it is very plausible that you just read a few books, watched a few movies and/or documentaries, and merely studied the internet. Other than that, you have done little more than shown me information that any Joe-Blow with no martial arts experience could provide. That picture proves my ties to Chung Do Kwan. Where is your validity?

Quote Bigzilla: "Thanks for those photos, very nice. The hanja says it is a Dan testing (Korea Taekwondo Assoc.)"

You're mistaken about where it was taken and lying in your translation of the Hanja.

Quote Dan: "Ok, here's the better translation - the date is in 1961 - you subtract 2333 to get gregorian year - and I misread some of it - It says "Welcoming reception for the first gwan director on his return to the country".

Quote Mackan: "I only speak Japanese, but I reckon the meaning is something along the lines of: '(A photo) commemorating the welcome back (back, as in 'after have being abroad') party for the superintendent/director'."

Two users who came to the approximate translation as the one Master Choi gave my teacher. Tread carefully Bigzilla, your credibility is at stake.

Quote Bigzilla: "I am one of the only American practitioners of Taekkyon, trained by Yong Bok Lee's son, Si Hyuk (and ranked as 8th Poom by KTA - and a Life Member of the World Taekkyon Federation), and I can tell you that Taekwondo has NOTHING in common with Taekkyon."

Then why are you even in this discussion?? If you're a practitioner of Taekkyon why do you care what a practitioner of Tae Kwon Do says? Quietmartialartist 15:20, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I am not interested in debating your distractions. Get back to me when you have solid proof of your claim. May 29, 2007 Bigzilla

Ditto. None of the information you have provided is "solid."

I asked you a very valid question, Bigzilla. Why are you taking part in this discussion as a member of Taekkyon if you're not a member of Chung Do Kwan, as I am?

I looked up "'Si Hyuk' Taekkyon" and can't find anything about him. The only thing that came up was your comment, here on Wikipedia. Master Choi's organization is small, but Si Hyuk's organization, by contrast, must be nearly non-existent. Quietmartialartist 01:48, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

At least I have provided many items of proof that Chung Do Kwan is Blue Waves School. As of yet, you have provided ZERO. Again, get back to me when you have something solid. After that, I am happy to discuss my (and your) TKD lineage. May 31, 2007 Bigzilla

An excellent example of "lost in translation": http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070620/ap_on_re_as/japan_iwo_jima Coincidentally around the same time as Chung Do Kwan's founding. Quietmartialartist 17:09, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I didn't edit founding. I'm not as spiteful as you presume. Quietmartialartist 23:17, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Roger dodger, this is QMA, let the record show that my IP is not the same as the person who edited CDK Founding. 76.182.70.237 23:51, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Logo

Do you understand what grammatically incorrect means? "Or" surrounded by commas is not correct as you present it.

Secondly, I am not changing it to fit Master Choi's "cultish slant". Wave, Bigzilla, Wave. Not Way. That is what Master Choi says it is if you can remember...

And finally, for someone who so blatantly ignores Wikipedia's Civility policy, you sure like to threaten to bring in the bush whackers. Has it occurred to you what will happen when someone with authority comes by and sees how many times you've broken the rules? Believe me. It's a lot. Quietmartialartist 00:32, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

You are a vandal. You keep destroying the information just for fun. You have no evidence of what you post. Just some goofy guys opinion. The official Chung do Kwan logo's, as pictured on Julian Lim's TWO Chung Do Kwan certificates list both Hangul and Hanja. Go back and take a good look at them! What the OFFICIAL Chung Do Kwan writes needs to be on the page, not what some wacked out guy thinks. Bigzilla June 13, 2007

I am not "destroying" information for fun. If you would take the time to look at exactly what I'm changing you'd see that I am only changing the wording and the sentence structure. Your meaning is still the same. Quit complaining when something doesn't exactly go your way.

Quote Bigzilla: "What the OFFICIAL Chung Do Kwan writes needs to be on the page..."

It's on there. Just take a look.

Wikipedia considers peoples word worth evidence: WP:Honesty

Quote Wikipedia: "Our words have power. If they didn't, then the wrangling of them into something as unwieldy as an encyclopaedia would be meaningless. It is our responsibility to make sure that the power they hold is based on an honest understanding and application of principles."

Your's doesn't amount to much because I've caught you lying multiple times.

Reveal your identity or quit insulting my Grandteacher. Or both. Quietmartialartist 02:11, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Other Kwans and Dong Hoon Kim

I removed the other kwans from the beginning because they have no place there. Anyone coming to "Chung Do Kwan" will have likely visited the Tae Kwon Do page. If they don't know about the other kwans, they can click Tae Kwon Do and go see them. The other kwans are a distraction. This page is about Chung Do Kwan. Not Moo Duk Kwan, Song Moo Kwan, etc.

I think 1953 is a little outside of "First Graduates". Unless there's a picture of him with Won Kuk Lee handing him his belt and not an invalid website address, he should be left out.Quietmartialartist 19:00, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

OringTKD, if, "Many of these were either direct offshoots of or heavily influenced by Chung Do Kwan," is the case, then you should go and add: "Song Moo Kwan" was a direct off shoot of Chung Do Kwan on the Song Moo Kwan page, and like wise with any other kwan that descended from Chung Do Kwan. There should be a level of exclusivity on each kwan page. If you so wish to add this information somewhere, add it on the Tae Kwon Do page, or ask me to.

An example: [1]

This is the modification I would make: "At the end of World War II, several Kwans arose. The first was: Chung Do Kwan. Many Kwans were either direct offshoots or were heavily influenced by the first Kwan, namely: Moo Duk Kwan, Jidokwan (or Yun Moo Kwan), Chang Moo Kwan, Han Moo Kwan, Oh Do Kwan, Jung Do Kwan, Kang Duk Won, and Song Moo Kwan."

The above is one of the reasons I have a problem with adding the names of the original kwans. They're already displayed and easily accessible on the "mother" site.

Sincerely, Quietmartialartist 00:30, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I added the names of the other kwans so that people wouldn't have to click on a link to see them. It was for continuity, ease, and convenience. If the paragraph says Chung Do Kwan was one of the nine kwans making up Tae Kwon Do, and then those kwans aren't listed immediately after, I would imagine people might get a sense of irritation. It was simply to put Chung Do Kwan in context of being one of the nine kwans that ultimately went into the KTA, not to take attention away from it. OringTKD 05:06, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Blue Way / Wave Debate

Quick question: Why is the Tae Kwon Do section described with Japanese kanja? Tae Kwon Do is a Korean martial art, not Japanese. And following this logic, Chung Do Kwan does indeed mean Blue Way, or Pure Way. The Korean Hangul (not Kanja) clearly represent Chung Do. Chung is blue or pure, Do is Way. I fail to see how that could be translated as Blue Waves. OringTKD 04:23, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

According to Errant108, the character for Do in Hungul (도) has numerous meanings:

Quote Errant: 도/Do is how a Korean would pronounce 道.

A Korean would also pronounce 濤 as 도/Do.

The Chinese character is the word. It existed first. The sound 도/Do is merely the Korean pronounciation of this word of Chinese origin.

度/도/Do, which means degree, manner, or system, or alternately, to consider[2]

都/도/Do, which means metropolis, capital, all, the whole, elegant, or refined[3]

導/도/Do, which means direct, guide, lead, to conduct[4]

島/도/Do, meaning island[5]

圖/도/Do, meaning diagram, chart, map, or picture[6]

etc. etc. Which complicates our argument, of course. Quietmartialartist 14:18, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

This has been discussed in great detail on the Taekwondo page. Go back and read it so you will see the evidence clearly shows that Chung Do Kwan translates in Korean Hanja (not Hangul) as Blue Waves. Also, Jidokwan, Han Moo Kwan, Chang Moo Kwan and Kang Duk Won did not come from Chung Do Kwan, nor were they influenced by it. Bigzilla - 8-8-07

Hanja is Japanese, Hangul is Korean. The Korean Hangul for Chung Do clearly shows the characters for Blue Way. The character for Way (not Waves) is clearly shown on the Chung Do Kwan logo. Anyway, we were told over 20 years ago by our Korean GM and Hae Man Park that Chung Do Kwan means Pure Way school. This is also described on a website describing Tae Kwon Do history. I forget which one, but I will find it. And it's not the school from Boston. And I never said ALL kwans came from or were influenced by Chung Do Kwan, I said many. Those include: Song Moo Kwan, Jung Do Kwan, Moo Duk Kwan, Oh Do Kwan. You add Chung Do Kwan to that, and that makes 5 out of 9, a majority. Therefore, calling Chung Do Kwan Blue Way is perfectly legitimate. I'm going by what the Korean Hangul say, not Japanese kanja.OringTKD 14:32, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

That's very interesting, Oring. I look forward to seeing your references.

Hanja is Chinese. Both Japanese and Koreans use Hanja. Don't let Bigzilla rile you up. He'll get himself banned yet again eventually, but until then take his comments in stride. Quietmartialartist 15:06, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I do realize that the older generation of Koreans, the ones who experienced the Japanese Occupation, learned Kanja because they had no choice. However, Korea has been free of Japanese occupation for 60 years, and it seems wrong to utilize Japanese kanja to describe their martial art, as well as an insult. As I stated above, the Korean Hangul on the CDK patch (which Won Kuk Lee would have created) shows the character for Do or Way, which to me means Blue Way, not Blue Waves. I'm going on what my eyes see. And I will find those references. I should have saved them when I had the chance (Do'h!) OringTKD 15:21, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

So you're saying that 道 and 濤 are Kanji? Quietmartialartist 15:40, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I thought kanja was the term for Japanese writing. In retrospect, kanji is the term for Japanese script. Not that it matters, since I am fluent in neither kanja (Chinese) nor kanji (Japanese). I do know that the Hangul on the Chung Do Kwan patch refers to Chung Do, which means Blue Way. The Hangul for "Do" in Chung Do Kwan is the same character referring to "Do" in Tae Kwon Do. Therefore Blue Way, not Blue Waves. Perhaps the Kanja would be something else, but we are not talking about Kanja. We are talking about the Korean Hangul on the Chung Do Kwan patch.OringTKD 21:42, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

In Korea, they have Hanja, or, Hanmoon, which is the Chinese character that defines the meaning of the Korean sounds, which are written in Hangul. This is the Hanja for Chung Do Kwan - 靑濤館. The center Chinese character is 濤 which is pronounced as "Doe" by Koreans, but it has the meaning of waves, not the meaning of path or way. The Chinese character (Korean Hanja) for path or way is the same as the one used in the "DO" of Taekwondo (跆拳道). 道 and 濤 are both pronounced as DO (Doe) by Koreans, so when they use Hangul, they use the only one for the sound, which is 도. 도 has no standard meaning. You have to know what Hanja goes with it.

QMA, Erant and I have had months of discussion about this very subject. Even though QMA and I disagree, at least he is trying to find evidence to support his statement. I have provided mine. Go back to the Taekwondo page and you can read the mountains of discussion.

Bigzilla 8-8-07

Kanja is very seldom used by Koreans anymore, except in special circumstances for phonetic clarification in some newspapers and government papers. It has been replaced by Hangul, especially since the end of WWII. Now, as I stated before, the character for Do or Way in Chung Do Kwan is the same character for Do or Way in Tae Kwon Do. What the Kanja is and what it translates as is irrelevant. We are talking about about the Hangul character in both. My eyes see the character for Way in both. If the character is supposed to mean Waves, why not have the Hangul for Waves instead of the Hangul for Way. When I see the character for Way, I pronounce it as Way. Therefore, Blue Way, not Blue Waves. This would be analogous to saying the French translation for this English word is this, therefore the English word is this. It doesn't matter what the French translation is unless I'm studying French. We are talking about English. OringTKD 12:47, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Did you go to the Taekwondo discussion page and see the images of the Hanja for Blue Waves in the interview with Won Kuk Lee, the Korean language section of "A Modern History of Taekwondo", Julian Lim's OFFICIAL Chung Do Kwan Dan certificates from CDK Headquarters in Korea?

You are confused. What the Hanja translates to is completely relevant, and it explains the meaning, not phonetics like you stated above. You need to study more about Hanja to understand.

You are also incorrect on the usage of Hanja in Korea today. It is very common in newspapers, websites, books, store signs, etc. I know, I go to Korea every year. All you have to do is look around, you will find many examples where Hanja is used to translate the Hangul sounds.

If you disagree after reviewing all that material, provide me with some SOLID proof of your claim.

Bigzilla 8-9-07

Quietmartialartist, Dakin Burdick's widely regarded Tae Kwon Do history "People and Places of Tae Kwon Do's Formative Years" translates Chung Do Kwan as "True Path Hall". While Dohrenwend's "Informal History of Chung Do Kwan list Won Kuk Lee as a Tae Kyon student. So I'm not making this stuff up. OringTKD 05:24, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, believe me, I'm well aware of Professor Burdick's translation and the topic at hand, having argued for "Pure Way" for, how long has it been, Bigzilla, four months? Bigzilla and Errant prefer to ignore what the Scholar Dakin Burdick says on the issue, for you see I brought him up about three months ago, however Bigzilla carried on as if Prof. Burdick's views were irrelevant.

You most recent edits are unacceptable to Wikipedia. You should place references in the Reference section near the bottom and the place links to them next to Pure Way and Won Kuk Lee; TaeKyyon student, etc.

Who is your teacher/grand teacher, Oring? Do you happen to know Master Duk Kyung Choi? He also cites Pure Way. He is my grand teacher. Quietmartialartist 15:48, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

My Instructor is Grandmaster Tae Zee Park, based in Jackson, Michigan. I don't know your GM Duk Kyung Choi personally, although GM Park very well might. He knows a great many of the old school Tae Kwon Do Instructors, especially from Chung Do Kwan. I'll ask him when I get the chance. I have visited the website of Boston Chung Do Kwan, and it seems very good. One of the few that translates as Pure Way School, and talks about many of the same things we do. I distinctly remember a seminar GM Park organized in 1986 with Hae Man Park. I was not there, but one of my colleagues was, and I read through his notes. Chung Do Kwan was translated as School of the Clean or Pure Way. Blue Waves was not mentioned. Arguing with Bigzilla is like saying the sky you both see above you is blue and he claims it's green. OringTKD 16:30, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

To the few that actually know who he is, Burdick is regarded as an idiot in the Korean martial arts community. The stuff he writes is loaded with errors and contradictions. Dohrenwend is even worse! Let's quote the stray dog, that will be more credible.

Do not even talk about Hae Man Park. The certificates Hae Man Park awards Chung Do Kwan members with states BLUE WAVES in Hanja. Check it out for yourself. Also, I know him personally, I asked him in person about the meaning of Chung Do Kwan, etc. He said it means blue waves. If you want to write him and ask him, I have his address, phone and fax #, I offered before, and I offer again to provide you with it. Bigzilla August 14, 2007

This is a website with links to other studios under Master Choi. These are all based in the West Virginia area: [7]. A nice picture that can be found on Mr. Savage's website: Sliding side kick, breaking six boards, no spacers.

Do you still have your colleague's notes? Posting them here may help our argument. If you are unaware how to upload pictures, try using Imageshack. Quietmartialartist 18:02, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately no, as they were written over 20 years ago and it didn't occur to me to make copies and keep them. I guess I should have. Who knew? I remember distinctly that he had written the translation of "Chung Do Kwan" as "School of the Clean or Pure Way". Speaking of sliding side kicks, the same colleague has broken six boards with the same kick (way back in the day). Another of our black belts tried it at a testing once. However, he is not nearly as big, and it was considerably more dificult for him.OringTKD 22:08, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I asked several Chung Do Kwan Grandmasters about this issue while I was at a tournament in Los Angeles recently. I mentioned Duk Choi. I was told he is just trying to isolate his students from the rest and he good and well knows the real meaning. Wake up and smell the coffee! Bigzilla August 14, 2007

Oh, I also e-mail a few and will post there answer here. Bigzilla

Here is some solid proof about the blue waves issue. Please offer some solid proof of what you claim, other than some guys goofy claim.

Please see these documents:

Korean language interview with Won Kuk Lee (Chung Do Kwan founder)

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb116/bigzilla/WonKukLeearticle1stpagescan.jpg

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb116/bigzilla/WonKukLeearticle2ndpagescan.jpg

(in this 2nd part of the article below, it explains how Lee took the Chung Do Kwan name from Song Do Kwan (Shotokan or Blue Waves School)

Korean book on Taekwondo history. Chung Do Kwan section:

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb116/bigzilla/MHCDK1.jpg

Official Korea Taekwondo Association signed by the 9 Kwan leaders in 1975

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb116/bigzilla/KwanUnityDocument1975.jpg

Juliam Lim's Official Chung Do Kwan certificates issued by Chung Do Kwan President UM, Woon Kyu:

http://www.jlim.net/Gallery/CertificateSamples/Korea%20TaeKwanDo%20ChungDoKwan%20Masters%20(KTN)%20Cert.jpg

http://www.jlim.net/Gallery/CertificateSamples/ChungDoKwan---8th-Dan.jpg

From: SkipDo@aol.com Add to Address BookAdd to Address Book Add Mobile Alert Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 10:20:06 EDT Subject: Re: Chung Do Kwan To: dodgeduckdodge@yahoo.com Good question Jen! I don't know if there is any proof of what the translation is; I have read Won Kuk Lee's interview in Tae Kwon Do Time magazine and he only refers to it in the Korean "Chung Do Kwan". As far as an English definition I must refer to my instructor G.M. Dong H. Kim, who is a native speaker of the Korean language. He has always translated it as The Blue Wave School. Blue wave and blue way sound very close so I would suspect that "blue way" may just be a mispronunciation of the title. One could also be translating the "Do" in Chung Do Kwan as "way" and might lend to the translation The way of the Blue Wave school. All I have seen in writing and speaking to G.M. Kim, I must stick to translating it as Blue Wave school. Good luck on your paper....dennis

ANOTHER............

From: "cdkintl" <cdkintl@juno.com> Add to Address BookAdd to Address Book Add Mobile Alert To: "Donald DuckDuck" <dodgeduckdodge@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Chung Do kwan/Grandmaster Park Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 12:16:03 -0400 Dear Jennifer,

Thank you for your e-mail. The meaning of Chung(Blue), Do( Waves), Kwan(the place you are training). These words are Chinese characters. There is NO evidence. Call me if you have further questions at 317-571-1400. In case you wish to talk to me, please call me between 2:00-3:00 p.m. EST.

Sincerely,

Grandmaster S. J. Park

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Donald DuckDuck
   To: cdkintl@juno.com
   Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 6:32 AM
   Subject: Chung Do kwan/Grandmaster Park

   Dear Grandmaster Park,

   I am writing a research paper for school about the first Taekwondo school, the Chung Do Kwan. However, I am finding confusing information about the correct translation of Chung Do Kwan.  Some list as BLUE WAY, and others as BLUE WAVES. How can I find evidence to support that correct way?

   Thank you for your consideration, Sir.

   Jennifer Tilly

So it's pretty clear, unless you don't want it to mean Blue Waves. If you have an agenda for it to mean something different, they it can mean pumpkin pie, greasy pig or blond hair school. However, all the above sources disagree. Bigzilla August 14, 2007

I don't care what the Hanja characters say, the logo uses Hangul. The Hangul character for Do on the Chung Do Kwan logo is the same as the Do character in Tae Kwon Do. The Chung Do Kwan logo uses Hangul, not Hanja. I'm going on what my eyes see. If I didn't know any better, I'd say you were a Shotokan mole planted to promote the false notion that Chung Do Kwan is simply Japanese karate, which is another fallacy.

If Dakin Burdick is an idiot, why have I heard good things about his research? Not to mention the fact that he is a faculty member at Indiana University and his article appeared in Journal of Asian Martial Arts, a very reputable scholarly journal. If his research were shoddy, I doubt they would have published it. It's not Tae Kwon Do Times. If anything, he dispels many of the myths people have about Tae Kwon Do. His research appears to be rock solid. Anyway, why would his reasearch about Chung Do Kwan be wrong but his writings about other schools be right?

And as for Hae Man Park, he was number two in Chung Do Kwan for decades, as well as being the forms coordinator for the Kukkiwon until he retired. My GM certainly would not have brought him to America to teach his students if he were lying. My GM studied under Hae Man Park and Woon Kyu Uhm. And my friend's notes about the meaning of Chung Do Kwan clearly read "School of the Clean or Pure Way". Also, the website of one our Junior Grandmasters (7th Dan) posted an article that lists Chung Do Kwan as Pure Way School. This is a man who has been to Korea and China, and met with Mr. Uhm and his peers and has many Korean students who speak the language. I told him I contributed the bulk of it. If he felt the translation were wrong, believe me he would have said something. He is a stickler for accuracy. So to recap: Hae Man Park and Tae Zee Park (9th Dan Kukkiwon)-Pure Way School Dakin Budick (widely regarded scholar)-True Path Hall 7th Dan Junior Grandmaster (been to China and Korea, many Korean students)-Pure Way School Personally, it seems to be you who refuses to accept facts. I have cited reputable sources who claim otherwise. A Korean-language article? You could translate that anyway you wanted to students who don't speak Korean.OringTKD 13:27, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

"I don't care what the Hanja characters say, the logo uses Hangul. The Hangul character for Do on the Chung Do Kwan logo is the same as the Do character in Tae Kwon Do. The Chung Do Kwan logo uses Hangul, not Hanja."

No, the Chung Do Kwan logo that you see uses only Hangul. The official Chung Do Kwan logo that appears on the Chung Do Kwan Dan certificates that Hae Man Park awards, is in both Hangul and Hanja. Oh, so you finally learned what Hanja is?

"If Dakin Burdick is an idiot, why have I heard good things about his research?"

Same reason you thought that Hanja was Japanese, and why you think the Chung Do Kwan logo is only in Hangul. Did you ever get a chance to review Julian Lim's OFFICIAL Dan certificate from Chung Do Kwan? I recommend you compare it to your own.

"And as for Hae Man Park, he was number two in Chung Do Kwan for decades, as well as being the forms coordinator for the Kukkiwon until he retired"

This statement goes to show how much you don't know. Hae Man Park was never the "forms coordinator for the Kukkiwon" Who told you that garbage! Hae Man Park was on the Korea Taekwondo Association Poomsae Committee that created the Poomsae, before the Kukkiwon existed. You are very confused!

"Hae Man Park and Tae Zee Park (9th Dan Kukkiwon)-Pure Way School" "7th Dan Junior Grandmaster (been to China and Korea, many Korean students)-Pure Way School Personally, it seems to be you who refuses to accept facts."

Sorry to tell you Scott, but those aren't facts, it's hearsay. For one, I trained with Hae Man Park, discussed history and various issues with him, and I know him. Hae Man Park hands out Dan certificates that state BLUE WAVES, you can't get more solid proof than that. You teacher is changing the meaning of the name, why don't you go ask him why he is doing that?

Go back and review the evidence I posted above, for your convenience.

Bigzilla 8-15-07

Bigzilla:

I'd accept Hae Man Park's address, but how do I know I won't be talking to you? Also, which Grandmasters did you ask, and did you make it perfectly clear you were asking about Duk Kyung Choi. (I'm pretty sure there are other Duk Chois running around...) Last comment: Emails can easily be falsified. Although I will say I like the first email. He sounds like me, willing to consider other sides of the issue, etc. the only difference is his teacher is on the other side of the issue. I'm thankful that you didn't cite the Idiot's Guide again.

Oring:

Check that very last link Bigzilla provided. The logo for that certificate uses the Hanja for Blue Wave School. Of course it is possible that whoever decided to write the Hanja translation (靑濤館) for the Hungul phonetic symbols (청도관) made a mistake, likewise for the translation of the Hungul. The fact that Hungul doesn't mean anything on it's own complicates the issue and makes it very possible for a mistranslation, regardless of Bigzilla's willingness to admit it. We must also remember that we're dealing with an artificial ranking system similar to military ranks: contradicting a general (or grandmaster) is unthinkable in such circumstances.

And no, Bigzilla is not a Shotokan mole, amusing thought, but the reality is she(?) is actually a student of Taekyyon, which begs the question why she even takes part in these discussions. The alleged word of certain Tae Kwon Do grandmasters notwithstanding, this is not her history. I've been taught my Kwan's history since about age 11, not to mention recent, long chats with Master Choi.

I agree with your last point on Prof. Burdick. "...why would his reasearch about Chung Do Kwan be wrong but his writings about other schools be right?" It goes both ways for Bigzilla, apparently, she cited the, aptly named "Idiot's Guide to Martial Arts", after which she said: Even the Idiot's Guide get's it right. Wowm not bad considering Karen Eden messes up just about everything else. Bigzilla is willing to back up the word of an author as long as the author cites her point of view, regardless if the author gets wrong "everything else." I really wish Bigzilla would take a more neutral stance here.

I wanted to point out that it is very reassuring to hear you say "clean" as well as "pure," when translating "Chung," because that is precisely what Master Choi says.

You are very correct, Oring, to say "you can translate Korean Articles however you want" which is precisely why Wikipedia has a page on the subject: Wikipedia: Verifiability A wise statement indeed: "Keep in mind that translations are subject to error, whether performed by a Wikipedia editor or a professional, published translator."

Here is a link to my first posts on Wikipedia starting on April 2, 2007: Archived Discussion It's a very lengthy read, but I think you will find it very informative of our conundrum. Quietmartialartist 16:55, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd accept Hae Man Park's address, but how do I know I won't be talking to you?

Because his address and contact information is in Korea. I live in the USA. E-mail me and I'll give it to you.

"Last comment: Emails can easily be falsified."

Rediculous comment! I provided you with their e-mail address, and the one Grandmasters phone. Write him, call him, don't be afraid that you will find out the truth!

"Oring:

Check that very last link Bigzilla provided. The logo for that certificate uses the Hanja for Blue Wave School. Of course it is possible that whoever decided to write the Hanja translation (靑濤館) for the Hungul phonetic symbols (청도관) made a mistake, likewise for the translation of the Hungul. The fact that Hungul doesn't mean anything on it's own complicates the issue and makes it very possible for a mistranslation, regardless of Bigzilla's willingness to admit it. We must also remember that we're dealing with an artificial ranking system similar to military ranks: contradicting a general (or grandmaster) is unthinkable in such circumstances."'

This is the most ignorant thing I have ever read! The certificate is from the Official Chung Do Kwan in Korea! Don't compare it to that paper you have that comes from Kinkos (well, I could be wrong, ask your teacher if he had them made at Office Max?). And it's not HUNGUL LOL!! It's HAN-gul, as in the HAN people, and Dae HAN min kuk! WOW!

"And no, Bigzilla is not a Shotokan mole, amusing thought, but the reality is she(?) is actually a student of Taekyyon, which begs the question why she even takes part in these discussions. The alleged word of certain Tae Kwon Do grandmasters notwithstanding, this is not her history. I've been taught my Kwan's history since about age 11, not to mention recent, long chats with Master Choi."

I had been practicing Taekkyon for about 2 years, on the side. I hold 6th Dan, and an instructors certification from the Kukkiwon. I hold 7th Dan from my KWAN in Korea. So no, I am a Taekwondoin first. (clue:: "in" means person) I speak Korean, but I don't read and write it as good as English. I have a harder time with Hanja/Hanmoon. I go to Korea every year, sometimes more than once.

I agree with your last point on Prof. Burdick. "...why would his reasearch about Chung Do Kwan be wrong but his writings about other schools be right?"

His writing about all the Kwan's is way off base, not just Chung Do Kwan!

"It goes both ways for Bigzilla, apparently, she cited the, aptly named "Idiot's Guide to Martial Arts", after which she said: Even the Idiot's Guide get's it right. Wowm not bad considering Karen Eden messes up just about everything else. Bigzilla is willing to back up the word of an author as long as the author cites her point of view, regardless if the author gets wrong "everything else." I really wish Bigzilla would take a more neutral stance here."

That was a joke! Get it! "even the idiot's guide get's it right" (but you can't?) Get a sense of humor!

"I wanted to point out that it is very reassuring to hear you say "clean" as well as "pure," when translating "Chung," because that is precisely what Master Choi says."

Ask Master Choi is it CLEAN and PURE ----NOT---- to give you Official Chung Do Kwan, or Kukkiwon Dan? While you are asking him, ask Master Choi why he made sure he got his Official Chung Do Kwan and Kukkiwon certificates, but did not get the same high level certificate for you, his American student? Hummmmmmmmmmmm, and it makes me wonder... Better yet, ask to see his Chung Do Kwan and Kukkiwon Dan certificates, then think, why can't I have those too?...

You are very correct, Oring, to say "you can translate Korean Articles however you want" which is precisely why Wikipedia has a page on the subject: Wikipedia: Verifiability A wise statement indeed: "Keep in mind that translations are subject to error, whether performed by a Wikipedia editor or a professional, published translator."

Good point! Tell this to Duk Choi, your teacher. Tell him that I said he is making a translation error.

Bigzilla 8-15-07

First off, I’d like to say, calm down. Now, onto my responses:

"forms coordinator for the Kukkiwon" Perhaps Oring's teacher meant KTA, because it does sound like that might have been a title he held in the KTA. Oring falls under this category: Please do not bite the newcomers. So please exercise Good Faith, Bigzilla. Finally, a sub-section that applies to you: Bad Faith

Because his address and contact information is in Korea. I live in the USA. E-mail me and I'll give it to you.

Oh, and you don’t have any friends in Korea willing to lie for you? You must if you go there as often as you claim.

Rediculous comment! I provided you with their e-mail address, and the one Grandmasters phone. Write him, call him, don't be afraid that you will find out the truth!

I’m not afraid to find out the truth. Why would I want to call some random grandmaster when I only just talked to Grandmaster UM yesterday? The email follows:

From: WoonKyuUm@aol.com Add to Address BookAdd to Address Book Add Mobile Alert Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 9:11:34 EDT Subject: Re: Blue Wave School? To: QMA@yahoo.com

Oh yes, this was a mistaken translation that I haven't bothered to correct. I really should have. The correct translation is Blue Way School. In Korean Philosophy Blue means Pure, much like White does in the West. Grandmaster Won Kuk Lee intended his school name to represent the path one would take in life, meaning; the wrong path, committing crimes, wrong doings, or the pure path, of justice, of righteousness. It's really quite funny to think of what the philosophical meaning of Blue Wave is, a bunch of surfer dudes riding waves with dyed do-boks? At any rate, best of luck....GM Um

=) There you have it, Woon Kyu Um’s words. Now do you see what I mean about emails being easily falsified?

This is the most ignorant thing I have ever read! The certificate is from the Official Chung Do Kwan in Korea! Don't compare it to that paper you have that comes from Kinkos (well, I could be wrong, ask your teacher if he had them made at Office Max?).

I don’t care if God himself wrote up the certificate, spelling errors occur all the time, even in Korean. As I said, because we’re dealing with a military-like ranking system, lower belts, who know better, wouldn’t contradict a higher belt. I’m glad to see you admit you could be wrong for once.

And it's not HUNGUL LOL!! It's HAN-gul, as in the HAN people, and Dae HAN min kuk! WOW!

Goodness! I left out a hyphen and spelled it with a U instead of an A, how will anyone know what I’m talking about, except maybe the people, such as yourself, that have seen me write it that way. From a linguistic stand point, there's a very subtle difference in the pronunciation of Han and Hun, of course I don't expect you to appreciate it.

I had been practicing Taekkyon for about 2 years, on the side. I hold 6th Dan, and an instructors certification from the Kukkiwon. I hold 7th Dan from my KWAN in Korea. So no, I am a Taekwondoin first.

Quote Bigzilla 08:34, 11 May 2007: I have been training since 1969 in nations like USA, Canada, Mexico, Italy, Croatia, Germany, France, Japan, Okinawa, China and often in Korea, but, it does not matter where, or how long I have been training. What matters is what the leaders of Chung Do Kwan state about the translation of the name. How do I know this? I know them personally and have trained with them personally, even though Chung Do Kwan is not my roots (sort of).

How old are you? Even if you started practicing when you were 4 you must be around 42. And you’re still in school? (According to that email) That last sentence was what I was referring to. Chung Do Kwan is not your roots, and that is what we’re discussing here.

Might I ask how you got so many high ranks so quickly? My teacher has been practicing for 25 years and he only just got 6th Degree. Is Kukkiwon generous with it’s certificates? Or was there some cross certifying going on? I’d like to see a picture of your Kukkiwon certificate as proof that you’re telling the truth.

His (Dakin Burdick’s) writing about all the Kwan's is way off base, not just Chung Do Kwan!

Show me some proof of this statement, not just opinions.

That was a joke! Get it! "even the idiot's guide get's it right" (but you can't?) Get a sense of humor!

This is a serious topic, at least for me, please take your sense of humor elsewhere.

Ask Master Choi is it CLEAN and PURE ----NOT---- to give you Official Chung Do Kwan, or Kukkiwon Dan? While you are asking him, ask Master Choi why he made sure he got his Official Chung Do Kwan and Kukkiwon certificates, but did not get the same high level certificate for you, his American student? Hummmmmmmmmmmm, and it makes me wonder... Better yet, ask to see his Chung Do Kwan and Kukkiwon Dan certificates, then think, why can't I have those too?...

This is all most amusing... Master Choi has been an 8th Degree for 28 years, meaning he might have gotten one for 8th Degree. However, as I have already told you, when Won Kuk Lee brought Master Choi, Master Kim and the other Master who’s name escapes me at the moment, GM Lee set up the ACTA and that was the organization Master Choi fell under, so I don’t know if he got a Kukkiwon Dan or not. It is unwise to make so many assumptions on your part.

Good point! Tell this to Duk Choi, your teacher. Tell him that I said he is making a translation error.

Oh yes, he knows I’ve been debating this on Wikipedia, that’s why he’s bringing a Korean Literature book this upcoming Saturday. I'll do you the courtesy of not saying how he refers to people who mistranslate Chung Do Kwan. Quietmartialartist 19:53, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

My $0.02, for what it's worth, after having read these exchanges... I tend to put a great deal of store in words. Words have meanings and should not be misused. In a living language, words can (and sometimes must) change over time; but sometimes words and meanings get mangled rather than evolving. I accept the one and dislike the other. For the same reason I tend to resist some of the changes in Tae Kwon Do that occur as the art is spread from one to another, even though evolution is inevitable and vital. Put simply, I am a traditionalist.
However, having said that -- in the case of Chung Do Kwan, I wonder if it's really possible to eliminate either "Pure Way" or "Blue Waves" completely. My own master, a 9th Dan who was born and raised in Korea, has mentioned to us that Chung Do Kwan means "Blue Waves School". No one is infallible, and misunderstandings can always occur; but in such matters I certainly cannot discount his opinion lightly, especially since he is a native speaker of the language as well as having been a student of Tae Kwon Do from his youth.
Could not both views be correct in some way? If "blue" is symbolic of purity in Korean culture (as has been suggested, though I do not know), then could not the ocean be somehow thought of as a symbol of purity? Could not the ocean (or some body of water) and its waves be symbolic of a "pure way"? I freely admit that it is sheer conjecture, and I'm not trying to argue the point, but rather to search for some common ground. I'm simply sure that my own master would not use the term without some reason to do so. I'll ask him about it in detail in the next few days and report back. It's probably more complicated than we think.
Setting the translation issue aside, I do understand what it's like to become emotionally invested in a subject, and how strongly one can feel the need to defend what one believes, and how continued argument can actually galvanize one against the idea of giving in. But on so many levels, it's simply not wise to use terms like "ignorant" and "idiot" and "ridiculous" and to demean peoples' certificates, and to call them vandals, and so on and so on. Bigzilla is the main offender in terms of the bad faith issue, again and again. I've been on the receiving end of it myself. I offer no solution, but merely observe. Omnedon 00:46, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your contribution, Omnedon. I will send you what I've been working on as my final post on this issue via email if you so wish. This is one included paragraph:

As Chung Do Kwan was predominantly written in Hangul in the beginning, and to this day, it is quite possible a mistranslation could have occurred somewhere along the line. Blue meaning: "Clean" or "Pure". Clean Water, Clean Way, Pure Water, Pure Way, resemble a parallel translation.

Which is similar to what you have just stated. Quietmartialartist 03:01, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Scott, where is this proof you claim to have offered? It's there a PDF, or scan of some OFFICIAL documents? Scan your Dan certificate, lets take a look at the Hanja on it.

So here we have it. Scott and QMA #1. Have no documents that back up their claim. and #2, which is the best of all, they both have no clear understanding of Hanja/Hangul. Very funny boys! Bigzilla 8-18-07

Bigzilla, please read the Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines, as well as the four bulleted points at the top of this very page:
   * Be polite
   * Assume good faith
   * No personal attacks
   * Be welcoming
You frequently manage to break all of these at once, and yet you continue to defend your behaviour. Omnedon 05:27, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Bigzilla, I will argue and debate in good faith. I will not accept personal attacks and insults. The Hangul lettering on my patch shows the characters for Chung Do. Pure Way. End of story. Maybe they can ALSO be translated as Blave Wave, but I interpret them as Pure Way because that's what I see with my eyes. I don't know whether or not Won Kuk Lee spoke English or not. If he did not, it is very possible that there was mistranslation from Korean to English. Sometimes words and phrases just don't translate well. You continue to attack those who have a different viewpoint than you. Yes, you have evidence, but QMA and I have evidence as well. Why would we lie? Also, as Korean Hangul becomes the accepted norm of written communication, why would it matter what the Hanja translation is? We are talking Korean, not Chinese. In the same way that Tae Kwon Do is no longer similar to karate. Again, I see the Hangul for Chung Do, and I interpret that as Pure Way. I don't see a character for Wave. You want Blue Wave? Put a Hangul character for Wave there. OringTKD 12:35, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Scott, or is it Gunnar :)

The Hangul for waves is 도. You do realized this, don't you? Bigzilla 8-18-07

I saw your dojang website, with what seems to be a picture of you making a hand shape. What is that shape and what poomsae/form/hyung does it come from?

Funny, above I read somewhere that one of you wondered if Won Kuk Lee spoke English. Actually, he was more fluent in Japanese, and he preferred to speak, read and write in Japanese, thought he was fluent in Korean.

Bigzila 8-18-07

Where are your officially stamped documents, Bigzilla? The best I've seen is a piece of paper that allegedly was signed by Woon Kyu Um, although without a stamp there's no way to verify that it is not a forgery.

The Hangul "도" represents sound "Doe", and has many meanings. The Hanja "濤" is the character for "Wave," and the Hanja "道" is the character for "Way." If there's anything I'm not understanding, please clarify.

I hoped that you would be more appreciative that I've made an effort to correct Oring on the Hanja/Hangul/Kanji issue, knowing that you have little patience for the matter, I can see now that was foolish. Quietmartialartist 13:01, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Go back, you know where to find all the scans Errant and I made for you to see.

I'm having fun with computers today! Scott, check this out, here is proof of Blue Waves. I found it on the Oring Taekwondo School website! hehehehe!

http://www.hvcn.org/info/oring/sa.html Read your Chung Do Kwan section. Bigzilla. 8-19-07 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.205.70.20 (talk) 16:12:10, August 19, 2007 (UTC)

Bigzilla, Oring, if you want to debate technique, please do so in the new section.

Go back, you know where to find all the scans Errant and I made for you to see. - Bigzilla

Except for Lim's certificates, none of those are officially stamped documents.

I just spent the weekend with Master Choi again he had some interesting things to say.

He said, "I can't talk down talk teachers. Maybe, 'straight talking.'" (To which I concluded meant "logical discussion". By the way, you surprise me time and again, Bigzilla, with your snide and contemptuous comments to a man that out ranks you.) "What meaning is 'wave' in martial art?" Then saying, while making exaggerated waving motions with his arms, "You ask this guy you're talking to what 'wave' meaning?"

He mentioned things about certain Grandmasters in confidence that cast a new light on the debate. I won't reveal these, however, out of respect for those mentioned and my grand teacher. Quietmartialartist 21:06, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Traditional Patterns

One thing I will repeat, Master Choi said that Master Duk Song Son said of him: "Out of 400 million people practicing Tae Kwon Do, you are only one trying to keep tradition." Quietmartialartist 14:17, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Which so-called "tradition" would Son Duk Song talking about? The tradtions in 1947, 1954, 1960, 1967, 1971, 1982, 1988, 1992, which one?

Please, tell your Sabumnim that I do not pay much attention to what a man says, I pay attention to what he does. I am courteous, as a Taekwondoin should be. But respect comes -- or doesn't -- AFTER I observe a mans actions. Rank doest not earn respect, it does earn courtesy. THIS is Taekwondo "Tradition". However, so far I have asked many CORE questions, that you have never attempted to answer, and you have not given me your Sabum's answer. So where are we in regards to courtesy and respect?

And where did he get the 400 Million number?

Bigzilla 8-20-07 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.205.70.20 (talk) 07:33, August 20, 2007 (UTC)

Probably 1947's. Master Duk Kyung Choi started practicing in 1949. We have never practiced Choi Hong Hi's forms, you see.

Alas, a much expected disrespectful answer, as is our tradition, Bigzilla. May I ask where these "many" questions I have never answered are, for I've been unaware of them.

Ask Duk Song Son. Quietmartialartist 22:40, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Good morning QMA. Thank you for the direct answer. As you can tell, I like a direct answer. OK, down to the days business.

So your Sabum teaches the style that existed back in the very late 1940's, early 1950's? No modern kicking techniques, lots of horse stance middle punch, pyong ahn hyungs, and advanced hyungs like sip-soo, balsek, Oh-sip-sa-bo, kong-sang gun, etc.? No Palgwe or Taegeuk, or Yudanja or Kodanja Poomsae? No Shi-hap Kyorugi? Correct me (or Son Duk Song) if we are wrong.

I was hoping that you would warm to my courteous, but ~lack-of-given-respect~ manner. Please, don't take it personal. It has moved this convesation forward at a much faster pace, given the adrenaline it stirs :)

As far as unanswered questions, if you don't mind, I'd like to start with this one. Maybe your Sabumnim could assist you. Why did your Sabum persue Official Kukkiwon, and Official Chung Do Kwan Dan for himself, and some of his other Juniors around the USA, but, not for you?

Thanks, and have a great week.

Bigzilla. 8-21-07 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.205.98.61 (talk) 03:21, August 21, 2007 (UTC)

I hope you don't have dial-up and can see this: This is basically a carbon copy of our sparring. Olympic style. We practice the Shotokan forms. This is the first form you learn at black belt: [8] My teacher demonstrating said form after promotional testing.

As my teacher says, "The traditionally aspect of martial arts is really forms. So for tradition we practice forms. The more modern aspect is sparring. Just like everything, fighting has to evolve. Take Muhammad Ali for example, boxing used to be two fighters walked up to each other punched, blocked and that was just about it. Then Ali came in with fancy footwork, "dancing" in and out of range, and he annihilated his opponents who were not accustomed to moving so much. Nowadays everyone is on their feet moving around the ring. So must Tae Kwon Do evolve."

Won Kuk Lee brought over Master Choi, Master Kim, and another Master in 1969, at that time Grandteacher (GM Lee to you) created the ACTA. Kukkiwon was created three years later. I already addressed this on the 16th, remember me saying it was foolish to make so many assumptions? Quietmartialartist 21:16, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I have been intricately involved with many aspects of Shi-hap Kyorugi (aka Olympic Sparring) in the USA, and other places. Actually, I am very impressed that your Master accepts and teaches it. He must have a good outlook on what Taekwondo is. The sparring methods of Kukkiwon Taekwondo can be broken down into 17 sections, with Olympic Sparring being the 17th. We can discuss that in e-mail if you like as it will be a bit long for here.

Looks like your Sabum is doing a Tekki Shodan Kata/Chulgi Chodan Hyung. These are part of the forms that Gichin Funakoshi taught Won Kuk Lee when Won Kuk Lee was learning the Shotokan (Pine Waves School) system at Chuo University. Have you read Funakoshi Sensei's book, Karate-Do: My Way of Life? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotokan

If you don't mind, I have to disagree with your teacher. Forms are not the traditional aspect of martial arts. #1. For Karate based arts, like Taekwondo, the forms have a history of continuous change. Funakoshi Sensei changed them, his teachers changed then, and you find that they have been changed many times since then. The tradition seems to be "Change the Forms".

However, I will say that the most important tradition of Karate/Taekwondo has been a tradition of Change. Next, I would say that if we want to know what the old master's of Okinawa, like Itosu and Azato thought, they felt that training everyday on the in-ground Makiwara (Talyun-bong~Korean) was the core, the center or heart of Karate. Without training on this Makiwara, they felt there is no Karate-Do. When I travel back to Asia, I look forward to observing, and taking advise on training with the Talyun-bong. I have learned more using this tool of Karate, than any other practice in the martial arts. To bad it is very rare these days. But that is part of our tradition, to change, and to forget.

  1. 2. What about martial arts that do not have forms, are they not traditional?

Correction: Even though he is a grandmaster, and so am I, I would call him Master Lee, not Grandmaster Lee. If I were very young, and at 1st to 4th or 5th Dan, then I would call him Grandmaster, but I am not. Of course at an official function in front of all his students, I would use Grandmaster, as his students would be familiar with that title. If we were alone, say out at dinner or at a room salon, I would maybe call him, Hyung-nim, or Hyung, depending on his age.

You are correct, for some folks, it can be foolish to make assumptions.

Kindest Regards,

Bigzilla. 8-22-07 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.205.114.250 (talk) 03:37, August 23, 2007 (UTC)

The only reason I could think of to change or add a form is because you forgot how to do your forms the way your teacher taught them. Repeating a form exactly as your teacher showed it is a great responsibility. It's almost like whispering a short story to someone and then having them whisper it to someone else and that person to someone else and so on. Unless everyone is diligent the story will inevitably change. And not always for the better.

A martial art without forms is only concerned with self defense, and my idea, at least, of a traditional martial art is one that includes it's history in the way of forms. Without forms a martial art might as well be kick boxing or wrestling. Quietmartialartist 14:01, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree, Quietmartialartist. In my own experience, patterns are at the core of Tae Kwon Do. Some patterns have changed in minor ways over the years, just as the English language has changed over time. English and Tae Kwon Do are dynamic, not static; but nevertheless I always felt that the patterns should be passed on and practiced precisely, as you state; but some "drift" is almost inevitable unless both students and instructors are vigilant. I don't believe that "change is a tradition", as Bigzilla states. Omnedon 16:40, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

"Patterns" are just superficial and certainly not the core of Taekwondo. You need to take a close look at the historical changes that took place, and continue to take place in Taekwondo.

Here is a brief review of the history of Poomsae (patterns, forms, whatever) that illustrate that at least as far as Poomsae is concerned, CHANGE has always been the tradition.

From the 1940's through the mid 1960's, each of the 9 Kwan's did variations on the Shotokan/Shito-Ryu/Shudokan Katas. Some Kwans, like Oh Do Kwan (ITF), made their own Hyungs, then years later, RADICALLY changed them by adding the "sine-wave" and completely removing, and changing places with others. ATA in American made their own Song-Ahm Hyungs.

The Korea Taekwondo Association started out with a mix of Japanese Kata, Oh Do Kwan Hyungs and the-then newly created Palgwe and DAN Poomsae. Later, the KTA changed it all around, including the elimination of the Palgwe Poomsae, completely changing Koryo Poomsae to the one we have today, and changing the names of Keumgang and Taebaek. And guess what..........?? The Kukkiwon has been in the process of designing NEW Poomsae designated for competition in the WTF.

Of course all this follows the tradition of changing Kata over the past several hundred years, with the early 20th Century changes to Kata being the ones that Funakoshi Sensei made when he rearranged, altered movements and sequence, and, changed the names of the Kata.

I would say that is one heck of a "Tradition of Change".

Your statement "I always felt that the patterns should be passed on and practiced precisely" missed the whole point of forms. Do you even have any idea of the correct beginning positions, movement and ending position of any of the Kata you practice? What do you base "correctness" on?

Bigzilla 76.205.85.241 08:03, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

The changes you refer to have nothing to do with "tradition". To take one example, not everyone accepted the "sine wave", as you must know; some schools teach those forms without the up-and-down movement. There certainly is and has been disagreement on many issues within the Tae Kwon Do world; but that doesn't mean that "change is tradition". Just as with any wide-reaching system, there is conflict among various groups within it, and various groups go their own ways sometimes. That's not "tradition"; that's human nature. Martial arts has lots of "religions", and Tae Kwon Do has many "denominations". They were started by people, and people sometimes disagree, and groups of people sometimes split up. Followers choose among many ways and sometimes move from one to another. The benefits are still there.
As to the significance of patterns, my own master sets great store by them. So do I. They are at the core of Tae Kwon Do instruction, and even though different schools may practice different sets and versions of patterns, their significance to the art can hardly be understated. To paraphrase what Quietmartialartist has already said -- without the patterns, Tae Kwon Do would be nothing but practical self-defense. The practical side is vital as well, and is the basic reason for many peoples' choice to train; but other studies (such as the patterns) take one beyond that. Omnedon 10:09, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

You say that Taekwondo does not change, you say that Poomsae is practical, you say Poomsae is significant yet you do not give details as to why. I asked above "Do you even have any idea of the correct beginning positions, movement and ending position of any of the Kata you practice? What do you base "correctness" on?", yet you don't not answer. All I get is that you contradict yourself in your statements above. Bigzilla 76.205.85.241 02:49, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Bigzilla, you are clearly not following me. There is no contradiction. I do not say that Tae Kwon Do does not change. It does change. It is dynamic, not static. I do maintain that patterns are very significant to Tae Kwon Do, in addition to the purely practical aspects of the art, and I think many would agree with me. Patterns allow one to practice a variety of techniques in a series that has meaning at various levels, both physical and intellectual, and one can practice on one's own as long as one has a suitable space. For example, one may not be able to practice sparring or use a kicking bag while traveling, but one can practice one's patterns. One can learn the basics of a pattern in a short time, yet spend a long time working toward perfect execution and learning the fine points of it, and one will learn other things along the way. It's surprisingly simple and satisfyingly complex at the same time. So I say again, patterns are at the core of Tae Kwon Do. As for you, you have yet to learn courtesy, which both Tae Kwon Do and Wikipedia demand. This particular discussion has become irrelevant to the "blue wave / pure way" topic anyway. Omnedon 03:24, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I follow you completely. You would rather exchange a series colorful non-explanations, pats-on-the-back and courteous bows instead of answer my questions. Of course I enjoy Poomsae, and they are great for a variety of reasons - but none related to sparring, self-defense, or the core of Taekwondo. This discussion is very relevant to the blue waves discussion, because like the blue waves discussion, you have no evidence to back up your claims. I am still waiting for evidence, any evidence. Thank you for your time.

Kindest Regards,

Bigzilla 76.205.124.45 17:59, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I find it hard to believe that you're "following", Bigzilla, when you continue to argue. You appear to be faltering. Omnedon has answered your questions and you would rather dance around his valid explanations than address them.

"You say that Taekwondo does not change," Where did Omnedon say that, BigZ? He responded to me back on the 23rd: "English and Tae Kwon Do are dynamic, not static; but nevertheless I always felt that the patterns should be passed on and practiced precisely, as you state; but some "drift" is almost inevitable unless both students and instructors are vigilant. I don't believe that "change is a tradition", as Bigzilla states." "Drift" meaning "change" and his "disbelieve" in change being a tradition meaning that he doesn't think you should intentionally change patterns.

And your refusal to agree is the only similarity between the two discussions. Quietmartialartist 14:17, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

He has not answered anything, only danced around it. What about your refusal to agree with historical evidence and logic? Bigzilla 76.205.124.49 00:37, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

The same can be said about you. Did my explanation clear up anything for you, Bigzilla? Quietmartialartist 14:42, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm not dancing around anything. I have backed up my position on the significance of patterns to Tae Kwon Do training, which was the point of this particular discussion. What I did not answer was Bigzilla's impertinent and insulting questions about my knowledge of the patterns themselves. Abuse seems to be Bigzilla's fallback position, and he often seems to reach it very quickly. Regardless, a debate on the significance of the patterns probably shouldn't be continued here, as it doesn't relate specifically to Chung Do Kwan; and unless it relates to some aspect of some other article in Wikipedia, we should just drop it. Omnedon 19:12, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Pushing the Moon"

Bigzilla, the handshape on my website to which you are referring is called "Pushing the Moon". It is an isometric exercise and is the opening movement to the form Pyong Won, the fourth Kukkiwon black belt form. Gunnarthecat is my e-mail address, not my name :) OringTKD 12:40, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Scott, How are you today?

Who taught you that meaning and shape? First, if you are talking about KTA/Kukkiwon Poomsae, we have to refer to what the KTA and Kukkiwon have to say about it.

1. It appears you are talking about the 3rd scene (2nd position) of pyongwon, which in Korean language is TONG-MILGI (head pushing).

2. The shape you are actually making (and similar meaning) is from the Japanese/Okinawan kata named Kanku-dai.

3. to see the correct shape found in pyongwon, check out the official Kukkiwon website here:

http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/information/information04_03_12.jsp?div=04

4. To see the shape that you are using to replace the correct one, go here.

Diagram: http://www.karate-psv-hattingen.de/images/Kata/Kanku_Dai_g.jpg

Video: http://www.shitokai.com/movies/shitei/kankudai.php

Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanku_sho

At the Kukkiwon, Hae Man Park personally taught me how to perform the TONG-MILGI motion and it is nothing like your Karate hand position. Are you teaching your students this way?

Bigzilla 8-19-07 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.205.70.20 (talk) 15:59:00, August 19, 2007 (UTC)

Where is Scott Oring? Bigzilla. 8-22-07 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.205.114.250 (talk) 03:45, August 23, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The argument

As you seem unable to disagree you may wish to read Wikipedia:Resolving disputes --Nate1481( t/c) 13:47, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I've been working on an Arbitration Committee post for awhile now. Quietmartialartist 16:56, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd suggest trying mediation 1st this isn't really an Abcom issue --Nate1481( t/c) 08:59, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that's been tried. I'm not pressing the issue much further until I speak with my grandteacher, but I do intend to press eventually. It is increasingly evident that Bigzilla will not give any ground on this issue. So then, what say you? What is the next step? Quietmartialartist 18:13, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

As for my age, I am 47. I began training in 1969. You were born when? Taekkyon was a very recent thing for me, but not my thing any more. Jenny, my student - wrote those e-mails to the masters asking about Chung Do Kwan. If you want the Official Taekwondo Chung Do Kwan address in Korea, e-mail her, I will have her send it to you. You can even bounce it off your teachers to see if it is real, the shocked look on his face, and his response will be a Kodak moment! with him demanding that you not contact them without his permission, but I hope you have the walnuts to contact them anyway LOL! E-mail when you are ready. Dodgeduckdodge@yahoo.com

I vote for arbitration. So far, none of you in this discussion has offered any articles of proof to back up your claims. You better be ready to explain. I know I am. And I come with even more evidence. If you had any evidence at all, we would have been in arbitration months ago. So I don't expect it will happen unless I take it there, because the evidence is GREATLY in my favor. :)

See you then - fellas. Bigzilla 8-17-07

I am 38, and began training in Tae Kwon Do Chung Do Kwan in 1983 at the age of 14. My Instructor is GM Tae Zee Park, 9th Dan Kukkiwon. His Instructors were: Woon Kyu Um (with whom he communicates regularly), and Hae Man Park, who he has brought to America several times to conduct seminars. We also traveled with GM Park through Spain 12 years ago. It was at a seminar in Brooklyn Michigan in 1986 that Chung Do Kwan was explained as meaning Pure Way School. This was written down in a colleague of mine's notes-School of the Clean or Pure Way. Either GM Tae Zee Park would have said it, or GM Hae Man Park with TZ Park translating. I have offered proof of my claims that Chung Do Kwan means Pure Way School. Additionally, My Instructor is closely connected to the Kwan Jang of Chung Do Kwan in Korea. So it's not like I don't know what I'm talking about.OringTKD 12:16, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

You should talk to GM Tae Zee Park, Oring, about asking Woon Kyu Um about the meaning of Chung Do Kwan. An officially stamped document is about the best way of proofing to Wikipedia that the correct translation is Pure Way.

By the way, I'm not quite ready to jump into Arbitration, neither is Oring (not without documents or a clear understanding of Hanja/Hangul, etc.), hence my use of the word eventually. Quietmartialartist 16:00, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Oring, I have not seen where you have offered any proof. Where is it? Where can I look at it?

Bigzilla 9-20-07 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.205.70.20 (talk) 07:44, August 20, 2007 (UTC)

Jhoon Go Rhee was not among the first generation of Chung Do Kwan graduates, he was in the 3rd generation and should not be listed with the first generation like SON, NAM and UHM. 76.205.94.175 17:26, 29 September 2007 (UTC) Bigzilla

[edit] Ancestor arts of Chung Do Kwan

Currently Tang Soo Do is the only listed ancestor art. Do you think Taekkyon, or Karate or Shotokan-ryu Karate should be included as an ancestor art for Chung Do Kwan? User5802 13:46, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

No, Taekkyon is not an ancestor of Chung Do Kwan or Taekwondo. The records show this. 76.205.87.231 03:26, 17 October 2007 (UTC)bigzilla

Can you give reference to records showing Taekkyon is not an ancestor of Chung Do Kwan or Taekwondo? It seems Taekkyon, being a very kick-oriented game practiced throughout the Japanese occupation, would obviously have had some type of impact on the modern Korean arts founded immediately after the occupation. User5802 22:52, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, every single book published in Korea about the subject of Taekkyon states that Taekkyon is not the ancestor or Taekwondo, or any Kwan. Bigzilla ~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.161.131.51 (talk) 23:51, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Beginning of the article

Does anyone know how to change the page so that Founding fills up the unsightly gap between the contents section and the info boxes?

Also, should we not add some pictures to this article? Quietmartialartist (talk) 18:21, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Capitalizing every letter in last name

Perhaps this requires discussion. I don't know who altered many Grandmaster’s last names, I am not without suspicions, however, I feel that it is very imprudent to write "FUNAKOSHI" in lieu of "Funakoshi."

I feel that any native speaker of English will agree that words written in all capital letters are unappealing. Generally, it is associated with shouting or acronyms, neither of which originate in a person's name. At least not in English. As this is the English article on Chung Do Kwan, we should write names in ways coinciding with accuracy to English literature. Quietmartialartist (talk) 16:13, 20 December 2007 (UTC)