User talk:ChristTrekker/MJtemplate

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Contents

[edit] Old suggestions

[edit] We have a template!

I created this template using code from known religious portals and included content from both the Jewish and Christianity portals to get us started. I figure this first step in organizing Messianic Judaism articles will be the beginning of a much needed expansion of articles, as well as prompt the creation of new articles so as to provide the public with useful information about Messianic Judaism and all its aspects. Please discuss major changes (like total rewrites or deletion of sections) to this template here first before posting them. Minor additions are ok for now as we need to come to a consensus on what information needs to be added to this template and how it should be organized. inigmatus 04:33, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jews for Jesus

Do they belong here? ←Humus sapiens ну? 06:11, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Jews for Jesus belong in the template somewhere, I am sure, since it's a misconception that Jews for Jesus are Messianic Jews. Perhaps in the Christian section of the template. I' still working out some ideas. inigmatus 15:31, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Symbol

Is this a commonly accepted symbol of MJ? WP:RS please. ←Humus sapiens ну? 06:12, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Sure thing! Link to IMJA article on the Messianic Judaism symbol: http://www.imja.com/Gershon2.html says "The Menorah and Fish, separately or together, are major symbols used by Messianic Jews in Israel. Also the Star of David appears in various logos. However, it is especially the Menorah, with its national and messianic symbolism, that becomes an artistic instrument to identify with the ethnic Jewish community and at the same time, represent Yeshua through the Menorah."

Furthermore, you can buy the Messianic seal for your car now: [1]

I also intend to write an article on the Messianic seal based on several published sources. Also a Google search for "Messianic seal" will keep you occupied for hours.

Such references as http://www.familybible.org/About/MessianicSeal.htm for articles about it, as well as http://www.biblicalisraeltours.com/messianic_seal.htm - for a archeological pictures of the seal on various artifacts.

I am also currently engaged in securing rights to publish archeological photographs of the Messianic seal on Wikipedia.

Hope that provides the WP:RS you were looking for.

inigmatus 15:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rabbi Hillel

I've added Rabbi Hillel to the list, as anyone who has learned about him knows that many of his teachings were incredibly similar to those of Yeshua (and vice versa). Good decision? Bad one? 12.64.234.224 05:09, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Nutty, to put it mildly! IZAK 02:28, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Complete redraft

After hours of work, I redrafted the entire template to get rid of unncessary and redunant bloat. The template should focus on strictly major Messianic Judaism-related articles. Several new wiki articles will need to be created, the most important for now being List of Messianic Judaism important figures inigmatus 05:25, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I more or less agree with your decision to "cut out the fat", so to speak, from the template. However, I am going to make one small change to it: inserting the Jewish holidays that MJs commonly celebrate, in abbreviated form. And I will change Apostlic to "Brit Chadasha", which MJs use more often anyway (it means Renewed Covenant, specifically the one promised by the Prophets of the Tanakh). When creating an article that lists important figures in Messianic Judaism, make sure you list the following:

Rabbi Hillel: Hillelian ethics have a tremendous impact and similarity with the values and ethics of MJ Timeline of Rabbis: The Jewish Rabbis throughout history that believed Yeshua to be Jewish Mossiach, starting from Shaul and ending perhaps at Michael Rood. :D Shalom. 12.65.216.68 15:00, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I prefer Apostolic Scriptures, or Apostolic Writings, because it is a neutral term that all Messianics fall back on. Some use Brit Chadasha, others Apostolic Writings, and still others, New Testament; however all can agree on at least recognizing the term "Apostolic" to refer to these scriptures - and that is why I choose that neutral term. My goal is to eventually replace all the pages that these links point to with Messianic Judaism specific pages, where for example, we can go into detail about the issues regarding calling the Apostolic writings the Brit Chadasha, or New Testament, or whatever. I will revert back to Apostolic for now unless you disagree. Let me know what you think! inigmatus

Well, understand that Messianic Jews don't generally like using the word "apostle" very much, because it's greco-hellenic and a distant translation. Yeshua HaMessiah almost certainly referred to his followers as Talmidim, or "students/disciples". Your thoughts? 12.65.216.68 18:32, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
I would say that it's not wrong to call the writings of the Apostles as the "Apostolic" writings because most of their writings today come to us from a Greek text. Greek words in Messianic parlance isn't all that dissimilar either. For example, "synagogue" is a Greek term as well, but applying it to a Messianic congregation does not mean that the congregation is Greek. inigmatus 04:47, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


I would rather that if we want to provide a link to Pharisees, we should add the link to the Judaism section of the template. The reason I posted the Sanhedrin and Jerusalem Council links side by side was because they are categorically together as halakhic organizations that have been (and are now, or will be) sources for halakhic guidance for Messianic believers. If we want to include Pharisees in the Judaism section, it would then only be fair to include Sadducees, and Essenes. inigmatus 02:17, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, I think including Saducess and Essenes as well would be quite fair. All of Yeshua's talmidim were Pharisees, Saducees, or Essenes. 12.65.54.115 23:05, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually none of them were. His disciples were called the Nazarenes, Notzrim in Hebrew. IZAK 02:29, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What is the purpose of this template?

Normally, a template like this is intended to be placed on all of the articles mentioned in the template. I would hope that is not the case here. Most of the items in the template appear to be about Judaism, pure and simple, not particularly about messianic Judaism. This is as if we added items about each book of the Bible to a template about Methodism. - Jmabel | Talk 19:54, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The template provides quick reference to frequently asked for information that people inquiring about Messianic Judaism, have. The goal is to eventually either replace the links with links to new articles from a Messianic Judaism perspective or use, or links to subsections within the current articles listed. It's a relatively new template (only a month old), and still is a work in progress. Please see Wikiproject Messianic Judaism for further details. inigmatus 01:23, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
The Jewish parts should be deleted. I do not see what Messianism has to do with Judaism or any Jewish objects.
For starters, I have removed Sanhedrin. Each and every Sanhedrin that ever existed has not quite support Xtianity. Perhaps the Sanhedrin really did call for Yoshke y"sh to be killed. I do not see why any mentioning of the Sanhedrin is relevant to Messianism.
Further, I would like to see statistics on how many Messianists wear tefilin. Tefilin, on average, cost at least $400. Given the sporadic observance by most 'Messianists' (such as 1 service a week), I highly doubt whether a significant number of them owns tefilin.
Next, I highly doubt the number of Messianists wearing tzitzit.
The mentioning of the gartel is totally ridiculous. I have not in my life heard of Messianists wearing a gartel - and I do not wish to know. Thus, the gartel goes out.
So we have removed Sanhedrin and Gartel. Remains Tefilin and Tzitzit to discuss.
Next, the entire section "Judaism - Denominations" is totally ridiculous. Messianists are banned from making aliyah. Thus, I do not see why that is so significant to include here. The same applies to most other things mentioned there.
Next, Talmud. What significance does the Talmud have for Messianists? According to the Talmud, Yoshke should have been killed without trial. The Talmud, as well as many other Jewish books, are quite clear about Xtianity: it is plain idolatry. Including 'Talmud' in this template is like including 'Koran' in Template:Christianity. There is no relation at all.
Next, 'Services'. Linking to 'Jewish services'. A shame and a lie. If you want to include that, write an article on Messianic services. The link to 'Jewish services' goes out. --Daniel575 | (talk) 20:34, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Frankly, saying "I don't see how Judaism has anything to do with Messianism" is your POV. Messianic Judaism does see a relation to Judaism, or else it wouldn't be called Messianic Judaism. The template exists to provide links to the most relevant and important topics that are important to Messianic Judaism. Most Messianics I know (about 200 plus in my local area alone) use kosher tefillin in morning prayers. I'm still paying for my set which cost $360 from a wholesaler in Israel. If you doubt Messianics wear tzitzit, perhaps you haven't seen pictures of Messianic congregations. Do a Google search, and your curiosity should be satisfied. Messianic tzitzit, talit gadol, and tallits are sold as well on several online Messianic pages. I won't talk about the gartel because you wont, lol. J/k. Needless to say, I know of those who do wear one. I haven't yet, as I haven't been convinced yet that it's necessary. Aliyah is important to all Jews, not just non-Messianic ones. If you were Jewish you'd understand the imporance of getting back to the Land to fulfill prophecy. Current issues regarding aliyah for Messianics is a hot one and therefore that is why it is mentioned on the template. Links to Judaism and its denominations are important because all Messianics need to know what the traditionally accepted sects of Judaism there are. Finally, the Talmud is very significant to the orthodox branch of Messianic Judaism. It is important because of its historical value in documenting the "traditions of the elders" and other practices the early Messianic believers in the 1st century engaged in. Messianics do not hold the Talmud to be authoritative, but we do hold it to be encyclopedic in researching popular rabbinic midrash to various legal topics. Most Messianic leaders and devout Messianic Torah students have access to a copy of the Talmud and often develop the points in their parashot from them. I am reverting all the edits you have made to this template, as your edits are POV. The template is for "a series of articles related to Messianic Judaism" - and I can attest that they are related to Messianic Judaism. If you need be to post sources for my claims, feel free to do a Google search for them. Last I checked, templates do not have to be sourced since they are tools, not actual articles. inigmatus 17:13, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I am submitting a WP:3 request. These unsupported reverts are getting ridiculous in my estimation when the information isn't in dispute - I've proved that the original edits were unnecessary POV, and violates the reason this template was created, and those that are reverting are not responding to my response above. inigmatus 19:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I quote Inigmatus: "the Talmud is very significant to the orthodox branch of Messianic Judaism." Man, I don't know what I should do: throw up or laugh my intestines out. --Daniel575 | (talk) 22:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
You should practice civility and appropriateness, that's what you should do. Even if you disagree with him, it seems to me that Inigmatus is trying to constructively contribute to this conversation and is not resorting to childish insults.
Inigmatus: because most people are not at all versed in this topic, you need to very thoroughly source your claims. That might go a long way to resolving this dispute. - Che Nuevara 22:15, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Daniel's incivility aside, we do need to establish what this template is trying to accomplish and what are reasonable inclusion criteria. JoshuaZ 22:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure that all the articles linked in the template are relevant, but as I said below, my knowledge of Messianic Judaism is extremely limited. Ideally, all those articles which bear a relevance to Messianic Judaism in a particular way ought to contain explanations, in their respective articles, of how, and these explanations should be clearly sourced. Articles on Judaism, etc., are appropriate, I think, in the template as "background" for Messianic Judaism, and obviously practices observed and texts studied as part of the religion are appropriate so long as they are sourced and important enough to be of note.
In my opinion, the purpose of a template like this is to provide a reader unfamiliar with the topic with an overview of the articles which will give the reader an accessible but thorough understanding. Not all of the things listed here seem necessary to me, but like I said, I lack familiarity. - Che Nuevara 22:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I have begun a discussion on sourcing below in Template talk:Messianic Judaism#Article List inigmatus 18:28, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Question for Inigmatus

In an edit summary on 30 October, you wrote: "i readded Sanhedrin next to Jerusalem Council because it is listed as a halakhic authority in Messianic Judaism, especially now that it has been reconsitituted." If that is so, please let me know what this Sanhedrin thinks about Yoshke y"sh. --Daniel575 | (talk) 20:40, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

The submission is voluntary, such as given in the example of the Jerusalem Council - a "lower" Sanhedrin for Messianics in the 1st Century. Obviously we submit to Halakha that we believe does not contradict the Word of God; but obviously we disagree with the Sanhedrin's decision regarding Yeshua, and in these matters we will follow our own Council's decisions. Yet the importance of the reconstituted Sanhedrin is a rising issue in Messianic Judaism circles. If you were a Messianic, you'd understand. inigmatus 17:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm not a Messianic. R"L, CH"V. I would rather commit suicide than even consider the thought that Yoshke Y"SH could be of any significance. Thank G-d the guy is dead and rotting, and if he weren't dead, I would kill him myself, with my own bare hands. I would tie his hands and feet, and beat him until he died. Get it? Don't you dare telling me such things. And don't you are ever calling yourself a Jew or any of your whole heretical Christian sect by any name which includes the word 'Judaism'.
If there were a Sanhedrin, you and your likes would be sentenced to death by decapacitation. Please take a look at the following pages: [2] and [3]. --Daniel575 | (talk) 22:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Daniel, you've just moved from incivility to downright offensive attacks, and what could borderline be considered a threat. I recommend you cease this behavior immediately. - Che Nuevara 22:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi Che Guevara: Terrible as it may seem to some people uneducated about the Torah, from the perspective of Orthodox and Haredi Judaism, Daniel575 may be 100% correct. IZAK 02:35, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
He may be 100% correct, but that doesn't exempt him from WP:CIV. My own opinions on this subject should be quite clear if you read the MJ talk page, but I feel Daniel has crossed the line too. Being factually correct is important, but civility is a policy as well. If Daniel can't be civil in the making of his argument, he shouldn't be here. Kari Hazzard (T | C) 03:04, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Daniel is somewhat irrelevant at the moment, he's been indef blocked, see the thread on WP:ANI. JoshuaZ 03:09, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
IZAK: first, please refrain from intentionally misnaming me. My username is not Che Guevara, nor does my signature link to the Che Guevara article. If you are curious about or would like to have a conversation about my username, please bring it to my talk page; such discussion does not belong here. Second, all Orthodox and Haredi Jews are Jewish, but not all Jewish people are Orthodox or Haredi Jews. So the beliefs of Haredi and Orthodox Jews do not equal the beliefs of the Jewish faith. There was a time when Catholics did not consider Protestants to be Christians, and I've never heard anyone saying that 17th Century Lutherans weren't Christian. I'm not saying they are or they aren't, because I'm not educated enough on the subject, but just because some Jews don't consider them to be in any way Jewish does not mean that they automatically aren't. - Che Nuevara 04:38, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Che, a few comments- as always the issue is what verifiable rather than what is true and if you look at Jews for Jesus and Messianic Judaism both give many sources that the vast majority of Jews and the four major Jewish denominations(not just the Orthodox) all consider Messianic Judaism to not be Judaism. This is relevant for considering from NPOV perspective what the template should have and how it should present those things. JoshuaZ 04:49, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

(unindent) I agree completely, Joshua. I said myself that I won't pass judgment on whether Messianic Jews are Jewish or not because I don't know, but I maintain that IZAK's logic above was flawed. Now, if all major sects of Judaism disavow Messianic Judaism -- which I am willing to believe, but needs to be accurately sourced before going in an article -- then it is totally appropriate to say that: "The major sects of Judaism (listed) all disavow Messianic Judaism as not adhering to the tenets of Judaism for the reasons XYZ." However, because a major world religion is so hard to define, it is still difficult to say "Messianic Judaism is / is not Judaism". What would be more appropriate would be to say "While Messianic Jews claim to belong to the Jewish faith, the major sects of Judaism, as well as the state of Israel, disavow Messianic Judaism." However, the fact remains that, since Messianic Jews a) claim to be Jewish and b) claim to uphold the various Jewish laws as dictated by Jewish Scripture, then a basic understanding of Judaism and of Jewish Scripture / Law is necessary to a basic understanding of Messianic Judaism. Saying "Messianic Jews claim to adhere to XYZ" is not POV if they actually do make that claim; passing judgment as to whether or not they do -- religious law is very difficult to interpret -- is POV. In my opinion, the Messianic Judaism template should include information about both Judaism and Christianity, as it bears a visible relationship to both, and the information relevant to Messianic Judaism from both Judaism and Christianity should be linked. As I've said before, I'm not very well versed in Messianic Judaism so I'm not qualified to make that call, but I think the basic principle should be self-evident. Please bear in mind that I am not Jewish and have a limited knowledge of Judaism, so if I've misstated or misnamed something, please correct me. Peace - Che Nuevara 05:33, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

The above seems completely reasonable to me. I don't think most editors here (with the (for lack of a better term) more traditionally Jewish-POV (including Izak for that matter although he may need to speak for himself) would disagree with the above. Part of the concern stemmed from the template having what amounted to a large amount of Jewish entries and no Christian entries which created a POV issue especially given the controversial nature of the claim that messianic Judaism is Judaism (this was I suspect especially irritating because many Jews have a perception that messianic Judaism deliberately obfuscates its christian elements). If it has both relevant Christian and Jewish articles I doubt the more traditionally Jewish editors would object. As for citing about about the general Jewish viewpoint, see footnotes 4 through 11 on the Jews for Judaism JoshuaZ 05:55, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I assume you meant Jews for Jesus, because Jews for Judaism is largely unsourced. But I'm glad we're in agreement. I would love to stick around and help hash out exactly what does and doesn't belong, but I've got a lot to learn in this field. I really would love to help: please let me know what I can do to help this issue. - Che Nuevara 06:07, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Oops. You're right. Hmm, didn't even have that on my watchlist, I guess its one more of many things to work on when I have time. JoshuaZ 06:10, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] response to 3O request

It's not true that articles linked in a "series" template are necessarily articles about that topic and thereby should have the template transcluded. Old Testament and Martin Luther are linked on Template:Christianity, and neither bears (nor should bear) the template. Articles which bear the template (in this case, about 15) are part of the series, and articles linked in the template are articles which provide an understanding integral to the topic. I know very little about Messianic Judaism, but to say that one does not need to understand Judaism to understand Messianic Judaism seems rather far-fetched. Other things listed in the template -- such as the religious articles -- should be sourced as practiced by Messianic Jews. All in all, this template seems appropriate to me, although it could use some work. - Che Nuevara 21:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that one needs to link Judaism itself from the template; the question is whether one needs to list such an array of topics all of which are readily reachable from the article Judaism. In this case, it seems like an effort to "colonize" these articles. It's as if all of the same were to be linked from a template about Christianity, which also could be argued to be a heretical form of Judaism. - Jmabel | Talk 02:50, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The difference is that there is (to the best of my knowledge) no sect which identifies itself as Christian which claims to follow the rules mandating the things linked on this template; sects which identify as Christian do not require their members to keep kosher, wear the garb listed on this template, or follow most of the other bans (I was going to link that to the article on the religious meaning of the word "ban", but apparently we don't have one; note to self ...) described in the Hebrew Bible. I'm not convinced that all of the links on this template are relevant, but I don't feel comfortable making that sort of judgment call.
It seems worth noting to me at this point that early Christians did indeed identify themselves as Jews, and it wasn't until much later that the term Christianity was used. - Che Nuevara 02:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The links to articles describing various subjects people would have questions about by attending a Messianic synagogue is listed in Template: Messianic Judaism. That is the criteria for this article. Every item currently listed is an experience or subject that I personally have experienced in several Messianic synagogues. Last I checked, a template does not need to be sourced if it's only meant as a referring tool to other articles that gives background information to the topic it is trying to assist. If one wants to know if these various things are issues and subjects that are related to Messianic Judaism, they need only go visit a local Messianic synagogue to find out. I can post links to several congregations that have the various items discussed or used in services if you'd like. For starters: http://www.shomeryisrael.com/ or http://www.graftedin.com/ inigmatus 05:36, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why is "apostolic" listed as part of the Jewish texts?

The word apostolic in the template links to New Testament, which is not a Jewish text. I'm not removing it because I would like to hear the reasons why it was included in the first place. Thanks. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 00:28, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Hi Kirby: This entire template is an exercise in insanity. They (whoever the "they" may be here) are out to prove that they are the "best" Christians because they claim to keep "all" the "mitzvot" of "Judaism" -- even though Judaism (including all the Jewish denominations) would regard them as total nut-jobs and heretics, so don't expect anything here to add up. How many people like this really exist? This is probably one of the biggest hoaxes and intellectual frauds on Wikipedia. IZAK 03:37, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

The Apostolic Writings are recognized in Messianic Judaism as valid scripture. We believe in a hierarchy, with Torah first, the Prophets and the Writings next, and the Apostolic Writings after that. The Talmud is listed as a religious text useful in providing commentary and insight into areas the Apostolic Writings do not cover. No Messianic I know of holds the Talmud as authoritative over and against the TaNaKh and the Apostolic Writings. See Messianic Jewish theology for details about the acceptance of the Apostolic Writings as relevant scriptural writings. That is why it is included. It points to New Testament because Messianic Judaism does not refer to the Apostolic Writings as the New Testament. This is because we believe the "New Covenant" (Torah written on hearts), actually begins with Abraham at the very least, and not with Yeshua and his talidim. IZAK, we Messianics do not keep all the "mitzvot" of Judaism. We keep all the "mitzvot" of the written Torah (that is, we do all that can be done in the exile and without a Temple). Whether Messianics engage in the oral traditions found in the Talmud is an ongoing debate within the Messianic Movement. Personally the communities I am apart of in Colorado, are orthodox - at least orthodox as far as the Talmud instructs while also taking into primary consideration the ways how Yeshua and his talmidim lived out Torah. In fact, the communities I'm apart of have been singled out by Chabads, Orthodox, and other groups, as being more Torah observant than other branches of Judaism. I don't think it's a game we're playing, especially since many of us have lost jobs after our conversion, lost family relationships over the observance of Torah, and have paid other such prices such as threats by the neo nazis in the area - and real prices that have been paid by many members of our community; just to keep Torah because we believe it is what the Messiah would want us to do. I myself have paid a price for being Torah observant; but the blessings that have come from being Torah observant have been worth far more than anything I could ever lose. Ask anyone of us, and you will find out that we do Torah out of love for HaShem, as it is commanded in Torah to have the Torah written on our hearts. If the general Christian community wants to persecute us and ignore us like some kind of bad weed, and the local antimissionaries want to keep throwing stones, stealing our Torah scrolls (thankfully that's stopped recently), and if anonymous mailers and callers want to keep up the death threats; and yet we continue to survive it all, then what HaShem is doing in the hearts of those who love Yeshua as the Messiah, is true. You don't know how hard it is to live in a society that thinks you are somehow a walking contradiction. You don't know how rewarding it is to prove them wrong. To teach others that they've been misled for almost 2000 years, to teach Christians that God never abandoned us to a world without Torah, to teach Jews that God never abandoned them to a world without Messiah. If what we do is somehow not noticed by any living soul on the face of the earth, then we still have the one consolation that we know that HaShem sees what we're doing, and to Him, that is what is most important to us. Again, if you want to talk about this with me, and you don't fear a good discussion over the issues; email me. If you think you've talked to other people like me before, then go on right ahead and continue to misunderstand, poison the well, and refuse to give those of us who truly love HaShem, His Messiah, and His Ways, the benefit of the doubt. Either on this side of Olam or on the other, you will eventually know what is truly in our hearts and just how many (very few of us indeed) of us exist in the world. It is HaShem who determines who is righteous based on our response to Him and His Messiah. Not our position, not our background, not our nation, not our works. Everything is to HaShem's glory. Shalom. inigmatus 05:42, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Holy shit. I just wanted an answer, not your fucking life story. So again, I ask. Mainstream everybodies do not consider the New Testament to be Jewish Scripture. Why do you include it under that category? --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 11:42, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Let's apply some basic logic here. "Mainstream" Jewish bodies don't consider Messianic Judaism to even be Jewish in the first place, so why would the Apostolic Writings be considered Jewish scripture by mainstream Jewish bodies? Answer: this template doesn't deal strictly with mainstream Jewish stuff, or else it'd be a template for Judaism instead of a template for Messianic Judaism. In light of this, I don't see the relevancy of your question, because the texts listed aren't all considered "mainstream Jewish" scripture. If it were, then all Judaism would be Messianic. Hope that answers your question. And lastly, my "f'in life story" was not addressed to you, it was addressed to IZAK. Show some respect please. inigmatus 17:34, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you honestly think Jews are the only ones that can hold opinions about the categorization of the New Testament? I said everybodies. The ONLY group that considers the New Testament to be Jewish Scripture is Messianic Judaism. Everybody else disagrees. Please, go to Portal:Christianity, or wikiproject Christianity and ask them if the New Testament is Jewish Scripture. Go to Wikiproject atheism and ask them if the New Testament is Jewish scripture. Ask Muslims, Hindus, etc. anyone. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 02:00, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

If Messianic Judaism is Judaism, then you are correct, only Messianic Jews claim the Apostolic Writings to be Jewish scriptures. But if Messianic Judaism is a separate religion from Judaism, then you are wrong, Messianic Jews don't claim the Apostolic Writings to be Jewish scriptures - they would consider them to be Messianic Jewish scriptures. Perhaps you can answer the question yourself: is Messianic Judaism, Judaism? If so, then this template has no reason to exist. inigmatus 05:21, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Whether or not Messianic Judaism is Judaism is irrelevant. The template lists "apostolic" under Category:Jewish texts. If you want to say that the New Testament is a Messianic Jewish text, then go right the fuck ahead. Put it in Category:Messianic Jewish texts, not Jewish texts. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 10:27, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Language aside, you have a good point. I didn't realize that the heading pointed soley to the Jewish text category. If you know how one could link the header to both Jewish and Christian texts categories, we would have a compromise. In the meantime, I will happily remove the link to the Jewish texts only link. Thanks for being specific. For a while I was a bit confused as to what you were referring to. inigmatus 14:48, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

This is to confuse the issue. Jewish texts do not become Christian texts simply because MJ claim to believe both, and vice-versa. You can't obfuscate the difference between the two. Why is "Christianity" an unmentionable word for this template? Why don't Christian texts get their own heading? Why is the fact that MJ ascribe to the New testament "hidden" by not using the plain and widely understood term (i.e. "New Testament" rather than "Apostolic")?. —Batamtig 03:38, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Because in Messianic Judaism and other related articles written by Messianic Jewish editors, such terms as "Apostolic Writings" or "Apostolic Scriptures" are frequently used, and thus the template is provided for reference. In the future, New Testament is a prime candidate for a Messianic Judaism subcategory section which "Apostolic" will link directly to in order to be more specific as to the "Apostolic" name. Other terms have been disputed between Messianics. Some want to use "Brit Chadesha." It's a good debate. But for now, Apostolic is a sourced reference just as good as Brit Chadesha, which is more sourced as the Messianic name for the New Testament, than the "New Testament" is. The name "New Testament" in Messianic Judaism implies a theology that the "New Covenant" is after the "Old Covenant" commonly referred to by Christians as the Old Testament - a sum theology that all Messianics outright reject since we believe the "New Covenant" began at least with Abraham; and that "New Testament" is an inappropriate term to describe the Apostolic Writings. I can provide multiple sources for this if you'd like. inigmatus 06:37, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
This is MJ POV. Articles, no matter who they're written by, even if they're about MJ, should be NPOV, not MJ POV. Most observers would say that the substance of what MJ believe in and call "Brit Chadesha" (sic) is not significantly different to what is commonly known as "New Testament". The same thing goes for "Yeshua" (sic) and "Jesus". Regardless of MJ rationalizations about this, many regard the MJ practice of referring to essentially Christian elements of belief by invented, sanitized, "hebraized", and "judaized" terms, as simply a tactic to "lure" Jews into a version of Christianity. They do this by making the Christian elements — which are regarded by the vast majority of Jews as non-Jewish — sound more Jewish, while not changing the essence of the beliefs at all (and this essence of belief is the reason that Jews rejected the beliefs in the first place). I don't see why WP should support this blatantly MJ agenda by supporting these invented terms. To do this is to obfuscate the fact that MJ do believe in the divinity of Jesus (as do Christians) and in the veracity of the New Testament (as do Christians).
So what do we do with terms like "Brit Chadesha" (sic), which after all refers to a phrase often used by MJ, but which would mislead those with no prior knowledge into thinking that it's something different than the New Testament? The NPOV thing to do would be to make clear what it means (to most non-MJ, again) by linking to both articles on the template, thus "Brit Chadasha (New Testament)" or alternatively "Apostolic (New Testament)". However, they can't be placed in the same category as Jewish texts, since this would reflect the MJ POV that the "Apostolic" (sic) writings are Jewish texts. They are widely accepted to be Christian texts and should be listed as such. WP should reflect verifiable knowledge, not MJ classifications.
Also, your Hebrew is deficient, it's "Chadasha" not "Chadesha". —Batamtig 07:37, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for pointing that out. Last I checked, Hebrew uses a different alephbet. :) inigmatus 08:24, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Nice try, Inigmatus, but in matters of transliteration, the only subject relevant here, Hebrew's "different alephbet" [sic] is irrelevant, inasmuch as such an argument seeks to delegitimize all objections regarding inaccuracies, presumably in the representation of vowel sounds. It is "chadasha" unequivically and nearly universally...and in all cases where that transliteration is not universal, none support "chadesha" as an acceptable alternative. Tomertalk 06:02, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] TfD nomination of Template:Messianic Judaism

Template:Messianic Judaism has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. IZAK 19:13, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

IZAK, I laud your efforts to VfD any Messianic Judaism articles that don't meet your views. But I really don't think VfD'ing articles is helping improve articles, nor improve the differences you and I have. You are only aggravating the circumstances and wasting a lot of people's time. If you dispute the contents of this current list, then please respond to my sources posted in the old conversations above that prove that these topics ARE related to Messianic Judaism. Keep in mind that every WP:3O that has been invited to give input, has supported the current list, and that the current list has not been in dispute for a long while. inigmatus 06:10, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Inigmatus, maybe the article wouldn't go to AFD if it dealt with specific issues of this movement. Putting the Shabath here and Tefilin etc is pointless since the template won't appear in the articles anyway. Amoruso 20:25, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Following Amoruso's suggestion, I have removed all the subject matter that is not specifically relevant to MJ. Tomertalk 06:16, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
First, who are you to say what is and is not relevant to Messianic Judaism? Second, I applaud your effort at a compromise, however I think a fundamental difference is in over the purpose of the template: namely that Third, this is not a template to link all Messianic-exclusive articles only. It's a template to link articles related to Messianic Judaism as a topic. Exclusivity to a topic is not a required template parameter in WP:TFD. Templates can have links to articles related to the subject which the template appears on, but the articles linked in the template may not always have to be themselves totally exclusive to the template's topic to be useful and informative. I will re-add the deleted content because the deleted content are a list of articles relevant to Messianic Judaism if one were to visit any orthodox Messianic synagogue. Again, if people want sources, I'll be happy to provide them. inigmatus 08:56, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article List

List of Related Articles (which are also non-exclusive to Messianic Judaism) and their reasons for inclusion:

  1. God Messianics use these very names of HaShem in their liturgy, speech, and other forms of communication. People visiting a Messianic synagogue would be exposed to these names, thus the reason for their inclusion in the template.
  2. Messiah Of all things, I don't suppose the term Messianic has any relationship to Messiah? Linking to an article that does not necessarily support Yeshua as the Messiah, is still relevant to Messianic Judaism, if only to present the standard view in Judaism as to the nature of the Messiah.
  3. Covenants Without the Covenant, Messianic Judaism doesn't stand on anything. A fundamental understanding of the Covenant is essential to understanding the position that Messianic Judaism takes in the identity of its adherents!
  4. Holidays All Torah-observant Messianics, and even so-called non-Torah observant Messianics celebrate most if not all the holidays listed on that article. I know I do. And most of us don't celebrate any others. The celebration of holidays (and the refusal to celebrate non Jewish holidays) is a dividing point between Messianic family members and those that come from non-Jewish backgrounds. Arguments against celebrating the Jewish holidays are often the first argument that new Messianics will find themselves having to defend against, and thus they are listed in the template for easy reference for any non Messianic who wants to know what holidays that Messianics observe.
  5. Shabbat It's a sad day indeed when a Messianic has to stand up for the core of his weekly activity. This article is not only relevant to Messianic Judaism, but is a necessity in describing the traditional observances of Shabbat that are found in the majority of Messianic homes. A separate article about Shabbat for Messianic Jews is not needed since we do most if not everything found in Shabbat! Do I really have to post a source on the importance of including this article as being RELEVANT to Messianic Judaism? Its the second argument that new Messianics often have to stand up for when confronting non Messianic Christians.
  6. Kosher Although keeping kosher tends to be a divisive issue in some groups that call themselves "Messianic" - all Torah-observant Messianics I've ever known are kosher, and Torah-observant Messianic Judaism has its source based right from the Torah!
  7. Tzitzit Why are such relevant articles to Torah-observance being removed from the Messianic Judaism template? Since when did Torah-observance no longer apply to Torah-observant Messianic Jews? Come on now, even my first recognized mitzvah as a Messianic was to make my first set of tzitzit as we are commanded in Torah. Irregardless if the commandment applies, the fact is, Torah-observant Messianics do it, and thus this is a very outwardly relevant article to Messianic Judaism - where Messianics are even willing to wear them when some other denominations in Judaism care not to!
  8. Mikvah This is another Torah commandment that Torah-observant Messianics engage in. It's well-known. It's even more well known when Messianics are denied access to Jewish community Mikvah tanks, that they have to resort to making their own! Thus this is a very relevant topic to Messianic Judaism as it only serves to highlight another bone of contention that Messianics have when faced with persecution from Jewish communities. Perhaps a future subsection in Mikvah will be developed to showcase some examples of such prejudice.
  9. Circumcision in the Bible Yet another Torah commandment that gets removed from the template, probably based on some false belief that Messianics don't engage in brit milah - circumcision. Do I need to scan a copy of an invitation our congregation's most recent ceremony for a new family? Do I need to post last Shabbat's message about our rabbi telling that he believes all Messianics need to get circumcised - or even documenation of his and other men his age that recently went through with it?
  10. Conversion I would personally have this article listing deleted if it weren't for the serious fact that this issue has been the largest division in the Messianic Movement since 1997 when it was proposed by the UMJC as a standard for greater recognition within mainstream Judaism. Perhaps a subsection will be further developed explaining this historical rift and its relevancy to a large half of Messianic believers (of which I am not one).
  11. Eschatology If anything since Jewish eschatology doesn't explain who the Messiah is, perhaps rather than deleting this article link outright, just have it point to the current subsection on Eschatology in the Messianic theology article, as long as that subsection in Messianic theology also points to a "See also" to Jewish eschatology since Messianic eschatology simply builds off from Jewish eschatology and explains it further from its Messianic viewpoint. Personally I see a future development of a Messianic Judaism subsection on Jewish eschatology once the subsection regarding it in Messianic theology gets too big. Then the third step would be to have its own article with both former host articles pointing references to it.
  12. Lost Tribes The Two House movement within Messianic Judaism ascribes to fundamental belief that they are all part of the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel. I of course disagree with their assertion in part; but the importance of bringing in the Ten Lost Tribes back to Israel from the exile is of utmost importance to other Messianics in order to fulfill Jewish eschatology.
  13. Sanhedrin The Sanhedrin is a very relevant article to include in the template if not for the fact that Torah observant Messianics have been looking for the reconstituted one to begin making halakhic decisions to resolve disputes over halakha in Messianic circles. Also the history of the Sanhedrin is important in its relation to the development of halakha during the time of Yeshua which would find itself in the Talmud.
  14. Tabernacle Another Torah commandment if the Temple is not restored. Torah-observant Messianics would engage in Tabernacle services if there was one set up where HaShem's name is.
  15. Temple Even better than the Tabernacle, a restored Temple on Mount Moriah would be the center of Messianic Jewish worship, just like the early believers of Yeshua.
  16. Sacrifices Part of the Temple/Tabernacle system, and would be a normal part of Messianic Jewish worship; something that would certainly distinguish them from their often-confused Christian counterparts. Such a system of the reinstitution of sacrifices could only lead to the greatest schism in Christianity as Messianic Judaism would most likely be the only believers in Yeshua to set the standard for all believers in Messiah to engage in.
  17. Religious practice Why rename it to Messianic Practice? It already is in the Messianic section of the template. Thus Religious practice fits just as well.
  18. Jewish Halakha Since Messianic Halakha seems to be separated from Jewish Halakha, then so too is a link to Jewish Halakha included here to show to the editor that there isn't much different between these two redundant articles. Again, this wasn't my idea, but if non Messianic editors want to see separate Messianic articles for redundant Jewish info, be my guest. We're outnumbered here anyways and we don't have the time to recreate articles already in existence since the invention of dirt.
  19. Services Just like Shabbat, traditional services are found everywhere in all orthodox Torah observant Messianic synagogues. A newcommer to Messianic Judaism would find this link not only useful, but necessary in knowing what to expect when visiting one.
  20. Prayers and Blessings I've lost count how many Siddurs I've given out to new Messianic believers. The vast majority of those listed in this article are used by Messianics, so many in fact that the create a separate article just to promote the very minor differences (if any, depending on what flavor of Messianic Judaism one happens to be familiar with) would be overly redundant in scope.
  21. Mitzvot Rambam worked hard on composing this list. Messianics probably work harder to do them (those that can be done in the circumstances), and probably suffer more persecution as a result of doing them. This list is essential knowledge for the Torah observant Messianic.
  22. Customs Another halakhic issue in Messianic Judaism is over the adoption of various customs and traditions. Again, informative information related to Torah observant Messianic Judaism (and Torah observant Messianics seem to be from my experience, the vast majority).
  23. Midrash How can any good Erev Shabbat conclude without an all-night long Midrash from the Torah or the Prophets? Furthermore, such discussions can sometimes cover all aspects of PaRDeS, of which Midrash is only one.
  24. Talmud Granted not many Messianics have a Talmud sitting on their home library shelf. I happen to be one that only has it on CD, but the orthodox synagogue I attend has one for the congregation to read from and to teach from. I don't think I've heard a Shabbat message yet that doesn't reference the Talmud at least once. How dare the words of the Sages be removed from a template of articles related to Messianic Judaism.
  25. Tallit A Messianic without his tallit in an orthodox Messianic shacharit is like a woman without her headcovering: exposed.
  26. Tefillin Oh, did I mention shacharit above? Hmm, somewhere I once heard the Tefillin had something to do with shacharit... could be something to do with prayer maybe (end sarcasm here). Ah yes, I remember now... I spent $360 on my set which I use every day with my Siddur! Oy veh, how can I drill this fact into Wiki? Maybe I should start posting links to papers, articles, posts, etc teaching Messianics about set time prayers, about Tefillin wearing, about Shacharit, about the controversy over praying the curse on heretics... this article is definitely relevant to Messianic Judaism - at least the Torah observance majority of it. Tefillin is no easy thing to grasp (no pun intended) for those not used to it, and that is why it should be included in this template.
  27. Kipa The next time I visit a Reconstructionist synagogue and see the men without kippot, I think I will lend out a couple of my own. Do I have to provide a source that says Messianics typically wear knitted kippot, whereas orthodox Jews where black? I'm sure its out there.
  28. Sefer Torah Oops, hmmm, Sefer Torah... gee I wonder what that is? Oh yeah, I remember now, it's the scroll in your Tefillin set, friend. The Shema ya know..., um what we pray during Shacharit?
  29. Tzitzit already addressed above.
  30. Mezuzah Classic joke: A Mezuzah for a Jaguar, anyone know (ortho, conserv, and recon)? Anyways, another Torah commandment to have the commandments written on the doorposts. I've got three for my lil apartment. A Messianic is one who isn't afraid to put one up on their apartment door even though skinheads roam the area.
  31. Menorah I have a nice Menorah. Would you like pictures? We light it on Erev Shabbat whenever we have guests over, otherwise we stick with just the traditional two candlesticks.
  32. Shofar For a Messianic, shofar blowing is synonymous with starting Erev Shabbat, Feast of Trumpets, and the sign of a true man. Most Messianic CDs will have a picture of a shofar somewhere on it, I'm sure.
  33. 4 Species Time to wave your lulav on Tabernacles. Yet another Torah commandment. Most Christians when visiting the synagogue don't even have a clue; just like some editors who want to remove this article listing from Template Messianic Judaism.
  34. Kittel Nice white robe thingy. One wears it on High Holy Days and other special occasions... which I think (holidays) was another link removed from the template without consideration of the facts. Pictures of Messianic Kittels
  35. Gartel Ok, so IZAK has a problem with this one. Ok so IZAK doesn't know that Messianics think any belt will suffice to fulfill this mitzvah.
  36. Yad I almost bought one for a friend who owns a Torah scroll. (Dont worry, I'm not giving any names. Last I heard, the antimissionaries in our area had a mission to break in and steal any Torah scrolls owned by Messianics).
  37. Judaism Yes, that beloved sister religion. Has something to do with Messianic Judaism, I'm sure, but to be honest, I just don't know. I mean, you'd think that they'd welcome us with open arms as family, and instead we're treated as diseased outsiders. If only they knew that Godly love triumphs over any human misunderstanding...and oh brother, how misunderstood we really are - by both Jews and Christians!
  38. DenominationsJudaism's divisions are important background knowledge to the Jewish information on Wikipedia. Judaism is listed in the template as as section, just as Christianity is also listed as a section on the template. Both religions and their exclusive articles are listed for relevant reference. However, removing the Jewish section and leaving the Christian section just proves the editor doesn't know the difference between Messianic Judaism and Christianity. If a Christian section is going to be listed, then a Judaism section must also be listed for we consider ourselves equally related to both - no matter how teeth grating that is for some people for us to say.
  39. Timeline Part of the Jewish section.
  40. Early history Part of the Jewish section.
  41. Schisms Part of the Jewish section, focus though is on Schisms to show that Jews have had their schism just as much as Christians (and vice versa). Both Jewish and Christian sections of the template list relatively equal things related to their sections.
  42. Pharisees - a sect that some Torah observant Messianics (like myself) believe Yeshua belonged to.
  43. Sadducees - a sect that the Pharisees were at odds against, and seem to have some theological fatherhood to the modern Karaite movement that also seeks to divide Messianic Judaism.
  44. Essenes - The Dead Sea scrolls and their authors takes one on a tangent to information about texts that were copied which had no Christian axe to grind; and which texts support the Messianic position regarding the Torah observance of Saul/Paul by using the same phrases found in Paul's letters, to exonerate Torah observance, and to instead promote it as something that all Messianic believers should be doing.
  45. Diaspora Messianics are truly still in the Diaspora, not able to make Aliyah. A history of the diaspora and information about it currently is relevant to all Messianics, both in and outside the Land. I for one am descended from Sephardic Jews. Two House theology Messianics also would consider this article relevant to 90% of their theology.
  46. Aliyah Means to go up... to return to the Land specifically in this case - for Messianics are unable to return to Israel as Messianics. I can cite several court cases to this fact. Many Messianics would see that they have a prophetic obligation to return to the Land, but until current circumstances and rulings change, it's a hot-button issue that has triggered other divisive issues within Messianic Judaism (such as conversion to Judaism).

I look forward to anyone disputing these. For now, and until then, I am reverting the changes made to the template unless someone discusses and disputes these items individually; or the focus of the template entirely. inigmatus 08:56, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Inigmatus, there are a number of problems, not only with what you've done, but with your reasons for doing so. You clearly do not understand WP:OWN. Your confrontational tone and actions further demonstrate a fundamental failure to grasp the concepts of WP:CON and WP:AGF. That aside, perhaps you should start a discussion for once, instead of simply reacting [negatively, at that] to whatever anyone else does or says. How about you start with an explanation of what you think the focus of this template should be, and we can go from there. Meanwhile, on a somewhat related issue, is it possible to turn that monstrosity of an image on the top into something a bit less distracting? Images in templates should be decorative, instructive or helpful in some other way (navigation, for example). The image is perhaps representative of the philosophy adhered to by most practitioners of "Messianic Judaism", but it is huge, distracting, uninformative to the casual reader (and equally unnecessary to the well-informed reader), unattractive, and generally, unsuitable. I know other motifs exist that are far more recognizable to "outsiders" as pertinent to MessJud (note: I don't use MJ, since to me, that is "mail jewish"). Several examples include this and this. Tomertalk 03:02, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
TShilo12, welcome to the discussion! You can find the discussion about the purpose for this template here and the discussion about the symbol used in the template here. Before accusing me of failing to grasp WP:OWN, WP:CON, or WP:AGF, you will find that your questions have already been answered on this talk page. I would ask that you WP:AGF my edits as well, and realize that they are done in a serious effort to promote WP:CON in a very contentious area of WP, as I do not WP:OWN this template. I may religiously patrol this template (no pun intended), but I do like to see major changes to the template be discussed first with consensus as arbitrary changes in Messianic Judaism pages tend to spark unproductive edit wars. I would further ask that you consider WP:CIV, WP:EQ, in addition to WP:AGF when making posts in this talk page. Thanks! inigmatus 18:15, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Guys, you should either stop edit warring or go to mediation. As for WP:OWN issues, I suggest anyone take a big long look at WP:POT before throwing around any more accusations. -Patstuarttalk|edits 18:25, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Nuts!"

You know Inigmatus, just reading over your queer defense of how the "46 items" above fall under the purview of Christianity (that's what I call Messinic Judaism by the way) I am reminded of the following famous episode from the Battle of the Bulge that transpired during the Battle of Bastogne which you may have heard of. Anyhow, here it is, courtesy of Wikipedia, and you can draw your own conclusions:

"The most famous quote to come out of the battle was from the 101st’s acting commander, Brigadier General Anthony McAuliffe, when awakened by an enemy request for his surrender: “Nuts!” (the general's interpreter translated McAuliffe’s reply as “Go to hell!”). The Germans were unable to take the town."

How apt! IZAK 08:54, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

IZAK, you still don't seem to know the difference between Messianic Judaism and Christianity. Do Christians reject paganism and mixtures in their worship? No. Do Christians keep kosher? No. Do Christians observe all the written Torah that God gave to Israel - even when they believe they are Israel somehow by replacing her? NO. They don't wear tzitzit, don't grow out their beards, don't worship God on his moedim, don't observe set-time prayers according to Torah, don't keep their heads covered, don't go through mikvehs in accordance to the laws of niddah, or observe circumcision as a mitzvah. Messianics do all this.

Christians eat pork on December 25, two days after the Winter Solstice, celebrating the incarnation of Jesus by a star over a tree. Christians try to take pagan forms of worship and make them HaShem's! Even oral Torah is as foreign to Christians as the eucharist is to orthodox Jews.

Messianic Judaism is also different from Judaism. In fact, we not only have our polemics against Christians, but we have a bone of contention with non Messianic Jews. Does Judaism follow the Spirit of God or do they follow Kabbalah - or have they somehow mixed the two together? Do they look to numerology and the study of Gematria to determine the truth of a passage of Torah, and place their traditions higher and over and against clearly written and expressed Torah commandments? Is ORAL TORAH higher in authority in Judaism over and against WRITTEN TORAH? Yes!!!! Are passages dealing with such concepts as HaMemra, Abraham's visitors, the Angel of Adonai, the face that Moses saw... all explained away as something over and against Christianity? Why is it that Judaism defines itself not as a written Torah-centered faith, but as a faith defined in opposition to Christianity? I think it's good that they are taking a Torah stand against many ugly Christian ideas and practices. But Messianic Judaism doesn't throw out the baby with the bathwater. We see Messiah throughout the Torah. We have come to know and believe Messiah is the one from whom Torah comes from and gave the written tablets to Moses! We believe that he showed up on earth 2000 years ago, and believed that he was rejected, and crushed, as the Prophets foretold that he would be. Furthermore we believe in one Messiah that God has for us, one Prophet who was to come after Moses like him. His name is Yeshua, his name means "HaShem Saves." And how badly those who don't know him need saved from their own vain philosophies and practices.

Both modern rabbinic Judaism and Christianity are dispensational. Rabbinics think Judah has replaced Israel. Christians think the Church has replaced Israel. According to Torah, both are wrong!

HaShem wants us all to be Torah observant - all who draw near to God (gee that sounds like a familiar Hebraic concept!) - HaShem gave Torah to the world through Israel, and not just Torah only to just Israel! Rabbinic Judaism has forgotten the commission of God to do Torah and let the world see it and want to do it too! The Chabads are probably closes to this, but inventing some man-made doctrine of Noachide laws when the whole thing contradicts Torah, is falling far short of God's commission to Israel to live Torah and let the world see true Torah observance! Israel is to share Torah with the world, for Israel is a nation of nations. The nation of Israel is descended from a righteous called-out and choosen Gentile from Aram, who witnessed to Gentiles in Haran, some of whom who joined him and his household. Contrary to what you may believe, according to Torah, Gentiles were always part of God's plan for Israel. There is no such thing in the TaNaKh as a ger toshav! Even Israel is called a ger! Messianic Jews believe this, because it's written in the Torah. Israel is made up of both Gentiles who have faith in the Promised Seed, and their descendents, and according to Ezekiel, those in Israel not directly descended from Jacob will be GIVEN a permanent tribal inheritance and identity in wherever tribe they settle in when the Messiah does come to sit and rule forever on David's throne in the World to Come! If modern rabbinic, and Kabbalistic Judaism, and Christianity want to ignore this, reject it, then may their rejection be on their heads. Messianic Judaism aims to reeducate people back to the written Torah, and not into some man-invented tradition that nullifies it! You misunderstand us when you misunderstand the Torah. Shalom. inigmatus 18:51, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Hi Inigmatus, as I skimmed over your words here I was tempted to rush for my violin. Then this must be the joke of the month: that I "misunderstand us when you misunderstand the Torah" -- hahahahahaha! As they say: Tell that to the marines! Sorry, you can cut up and cook a chicken any way you want, you can even buy a kosher chicken for that matter, but if you cook it and eat it for the greater glory of Jesus then you are a Christian and nothing but, 'cause even a Jew with a kippa and a gartel who may know the Torah backwards (or is it the Encyclopaedia Judaica that he's read and fakes that he knows "Torah," hmmm) yet who spouts belief in Jesus in any shape size or form is a Christian, get used to that idea. Gotta go for now, but I'll be back soon. IZAK 22:40, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
  • So a Christian is defined by a belief in Jesus? In that case if that is the ONLY qualification, I suppose you don't believe that Jesus ever existed and thus that makes you not a Christian. Methinks we better take this discussion to our user talk pages. inigmatus 23:50, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Believing that Jesus was the messiah and Savior of Mankind = Christian. Messianics believe that Jesus was the messiah and savior of Mankind. Therefore, they are Christians. The end. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 07:04, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Guys, this is shameful of you. This is an encyclopedia to report on what people believe, not what you believe about them - that goes both ways. Whether you think they're Jews or not matters not one lick. If they call themselves Jews, that's what matters; if they don't then ditto we report on exactly that. Many Christians believe Mormonism or the Watchtower Society are not truly Christianity but are cults; but to not let them reference Bible texts in their template is absurd and the very definition of POV-pushing. And this goes for Inigmatus too - this discussion needs to stop, right now, about being "are Messianic Jews actually Jews" and start being "how can we accurately represent what Messianic Jews believe". Patstuarttalk|edits 18:44, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Pat, you're missing the point. This is about this template including links to things that have nothing to do with Messianic Judaism. Putting things like the 613 mitzvot, and other Jewish things on this template is a violation of NPOV. It would be akin to putting Rosh Hashanah on the Christianity template. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 06:30, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

OK, fine, if they have nothing to do with Messianic Judaism, fine. But it's not like putting Rush Hashanah on a Christianity template, because Christians don't celebrate that holiday. All I'm saying is, I don't care, really, what's included and what's not: I really don't. But the argument here should not be "are Messianic Jews actually Jewish?" It should be - does it help out navigation? Do other similar templates for other controversial groups have such info on them? Etc. Making silly statements like "they have crosses in their rented buildings, so they're not Jewish" (as seen below) is just off-topic and non-sequitur to the argument. Patstuarttalk|edits 06:39, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Pat, can you point out where anyone MADE such a statement? I cannot seem to find it. If you are referring to the edit below, is it possible that you are reading something in to the edit based on your own preconceived notions of how that editor may percieve things, or how you perceive things? I am not 100% certain that your assumption is indicative of good faith in that case. Stop for a moment, and think long and hard about how your interpretation of the edit demonstrates your own biases and preconceptions. Now, if you actually have a direct quote saying that someone said "b/cthere is a cross therefore they must be Christian", I'll be glad to retract all of this. -- Avi 14:10, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I apologize if that's not what you meant, I really do. But why else in the world would you bring up that cross in this discussion? And, to spin this whole thing around, please WP:AAGF - I was no less sure of your good faith than you are of mine, and your pre-conceived notions are just as volitile as mine. Now if you can tell me why you decided to post a picture of a cross in Messianic Jewish worship, in the context of people arguing that Messianics are Christians and not Jews, with the quote "is that a cross I see?", and not be referring to that argument, then please do (in other words, why did you post that cross?). If you can explain it sufficiently, I will retract the statement completely. And, as for me WP:AGFing, please understand, that sometimes people can imply something without saying it (as I'm sure you know; good example), and it's easy for others to read into words. -Patstuarttalk|edits 02:50, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Last I checked, Rosh Hashanna was a commandment God expressly gave to the Israelites, not just to the tribe of Judah (the Jews), that is, if you want to go that route. If you want to take the reality check route, show me a single Messianic congregation that DOESN'T celebrate Rosh Hashanna with the blowing of the shofar. It's a relevant topic, and to say it has "nothing" to do with Messianic Judaism only shows the ignorance of the person making that statement - no personal attack here is intended. inigmatus 16:31, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kittel photos show something else interesting…

http://www.flickr.com/photos/28259271@N00/259924079/in/set-72157594311306744/

Isn't that a cross on the wall? -- Avi 17:59, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes it is. They are renting space in a Baptist Church, and the larger congregation that showed up for Yom Kippor forced the move of the observance to the main sanctuary where that cross is. Jewish congregations rent space from Christian churches all the time, and vice versa. inigmatus 20:54, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] tips to avoid edit wars

I just got done reviewing some of the recent discussion regarding deleting this template. While I do not think it should be deleted, many of the points make sense. For example, don't put Jewish holidays in this template, as that is not specific to MJ, and don't put this template on Jewish holidays. Rather, it would make more sense to create Jewish holidays in Messianic Judaism, put that link in this template, and include the template on that page. This new article could be linked from the "Variances in observances" section of Jewish holidays, hopefully without too much controversy. (Any claims of "hijacking" would be obviously baseless to any neutral observer, and rather indicative of pure bias on the part of the claimant.) Such articles would tend to be short, methinks, as I imagine they'd start with {{main|article name sans "in Messianic Judaism"}}, and detail only the differences from the mainstream view. Sure, this approach would mean lots of red links in this template initially, but perhaps that would motivate people to get to work. ☺ ⇔ ChristTrekker 21:11, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Seems reasonable at first glance. -- Avi 21:43, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
The idea has been suggested before, however I ask an important question which Jewish holidays are not celebrated in Messianic Judaism? I can attest I and many others in many other communities celebrate them all, or some communities celebrate some where some celebrate the others. Good idea though, just very very redundant.inigmatus 01:56, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
(First, a reminder that Jewish holidays is merely an example.) The issue isn't necessarily that a different set of holidays are celebrated in MJ, it's whether or not the holidays are celebrated differently. If not, then there's no reason to edit Jewish holidays or create a new article, so there's no conflict with the mainstream group. Since there has been conflict, then one must conclude that there is some distinction in the practice of observance, which causes objection whenever those MJ-specific notes are introduced to the articles. An article to detail those differences makes sense. It may be redundant to introduce another article that just parallels an existing one, but if that is the only solution that avoids edit wars.... ☹ I agree it's not ideal—I'd vastly prefer that everyone could simply be mature enough to tolerate differing viewpoints—but what else do you suggest? ⇔ ChristTrekker 15:38, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Hit again with WP:TFD, again. Let's brainstorm and come up with (and implement) some working ideas. I suggest trimming the template and forking articles, as I mentioned above. ⇔ ChristTrekker 16:34, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Since the "Judaism" articles are relevant to "Messianic Judaism" as well, and the primary complaint on the TfD discussion is that this template is redundant/confusing/stolen, what about using some fancy JavaScript thing to make the section with the mainstream Jewish articles hidden but expand when desired. Articles that highlight MJ in particular can be "above the fold". ⇔ ChristTrekker 15:38, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

That actually sounds like a neat idea. Feel free to implement it. You have my support. I've taken a break from Wiki for now, as my limited time has been totally consumed by chasing down VfDs, and I feel I can not contribute anything productive as a result without the nagging feeling that I'm herding cats. Animosity towards MJ articles and templates has produced a superpolicing of the MJ contributions to wiki which I feel if someone wants to enforce the majority opinion over against true consensus efforts to improve articles, then my time here is done and over with, and better spent elsewhere. Shalom. Thanks for at least trying to help. :) Not many do. inigmatus 05:38, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
From a purely technical aspect it sounds interesting. I'll take a shot when I have a bit of time. If anyone else wants a stab before then, by all means go for it. ⇔ ChristTrekker 16:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Halakha

I am concerned with the link to Halakha. By definition, believing in Jesus is against normative Halakha. There already is a link to Messianic religious practice; what is the purpose of linking to Halakha? -- Avi 22:54, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Possible template

This has been added by user:Ju98 5. Until the DRV is over, it should not be added, but it may serve as a good starting point for the next one:

Part of a series of articles on
Messianic Judaism
Messianic Seal of Jerusalem

Yeshua · Theology · Religious practice
Messianic Seal of Jerusalem
Complete Jewish Bible
Chosen People Ministries
Jews for Jesus · MaozIsrael
Messianic Bureau International
Messianic Jewish Alliance of America

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