Talk:Chrysi Avyi

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*Talk:Hrisi Avgi/Archive 1:
May 2005 – September 2006



Contents

[edit] Hrisi Avgi is re-startirting its activities

In the last weeks of January, many changes occured in the Greek nationalist movement. It seems that Patriotic Alliance was disbanded, after Hrisi Avgi broke away from it. In the 2007 march for the anniversary of Imia, Hrisi Avgi was said to be the organiser of the march, and no mention was made to Patriotic Alliance. The same happened in a recent march in Ioannina. This article must be edited. Hrisi Avgi sources: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] Indymedia source: [6] Mitsos 21:18, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Up until now you - and the sources you've quoted - have said that Hrisi Avgi has been disbanded? --SandyDancer 02:15, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but let me explain more about that. HA never actually used the word "disbandment", it announced that it "stopped its political activities". Since then it has claimed in its website (which continues to be updated) and its newspaper (which continues to be published, along with the magazine) that it "continues its ideological struggle", whatever that means. But in announcements above, it's making cleat that it will continue its activities. I will translate two titles of the announcements in the links above to make you understand: "Hrisi Avgi is not a ghost! It has leadership, tradition and fighters" and "Once more they are "disbanding" Hrisi Avgi". Also the newspaper will be now published every 15 days, instead of a month. Mitsos 19:30, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

IT IS NOW OFFICIAL, H.A. IS RE-STARTING ITS ACTIVITIES. Here is the official announcement: [7] and also an older one: [8] Mitsos 12:13, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

The title of the announcement is: Our movement exists, remains faithfull to its cause, and it is going forward. Draw your own conclusion. Mitsos 12:15, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Yes, I bet you're excited. However, please remember that Wikipedia is not a propaganda wing of the party you support. Spylab 16:02, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Look, I 'm not here because I support any party. All I 'm saying is that the article must be edited. Mitsos 10:20, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Anyone who looks at your editing history can see that you are an enthusiastic supporter of the views of this party, and that you want this article to be a soapbox for those views. Spylab 13:57, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
  • What Mitsos says is true. I changed the article and added a reference of the 6th convention Hrisi Avgi had in March 2007.Alex Gerakis 3:15 13th of June

[edit] The number in 1994 election?

It says: "Hrisi Avgi ran in the 1994 European Parliament election, gaining 7.264 votes nationwide, 0.11% of the votes cast." what those 7.264 means, I belive it is "7 264" and not (oviesely) "7 point 264". Correct? Growner 06:56, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

It appears that we have a US vs. EU misunderstanding here. "One Thousand Three Hundred Five and 3/4" to the US is: 1,305.75 to the EU it's: 1.305,75  :) -Kimontalk 12:23, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Condemnation of the 48 HA members

There is no part in your references (all in greek language), about the condemnation of the arrested nationalists in Thessaloniki. In newspaper Thessaly says only that this happened and there was nothing about condemnation. On the other hand in in.gr news and HA press release says clearly that the arrested ones were found guilty of carrying flags which the court considered arms. So i made an addition: According to a Hrisi Avgi press release, those members were carrying greek national flags which in court were considered to be "arms" and so they were found guilty of carrying them. They were condemned up to six and seven months imprisonment with suspension and were also fined €500. Alex Gerakis 3:09 13 June 2007.

[edit] Ideology section

Here users are encouraged to say their opinion about the section that describes the party's ideology, and keeps geting removed by Spylab. Mitsos 12:39, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

  • Wikipedia is not supposed to provide a soap box for specific groups or individuals. Having a huge section of long propaganda quotes directly copy and pasted from a group's website and publications is the exact definition of a soap box. See WP:NOT#SOAPBOX for Wikipedia's guidelines on this matter. Some of that information could be summarized and merged into another section, but the huge unfiltered propaganda section should not be re-added. Spylab 13:01, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
    • As I already said, the section simply describes their ideology by using their own words. It is not a soapbox. You can modify the section if you want, but you have no right to remove it. Mitsos 15:55, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
  • As I explained, that is the very definition of a soap box. I'm curious about what you imagine a soap box is, if that isn't it.Spylab 17:00, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
  • I think both of you are right. This article has its own "soapbox", named "Allegations of connections to the Greek Police" which is black propaganda and has been denied by serious greek authorities (minister), and it is written, but it still continues to be in the text...

Also, if any party has not the right of self-determination, then why it should be given to newspapers which show their bitterness? In my opinion, this article has clues that could characterise it all-soapbox, starting by the refference chaos and resulting in "ideology" section deletion. It is not the first article for political parties i contributed, although it is the first that roumors and fake or disputed evidence are considered to be objective, far more than the "fundamental" (sorry about the word abuse) sources. Alex Gerakis 21:53 6 July 2007(UTC)

  • I agree. If the ideology section must be removed, then so does the "Allegations of Connections to the Greek Police" section. In fact I would like to see both sections stay, but... Mitsos 12:01, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't atleast the image on the ideology section be kept?? Mitsos 14:33, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Taking a look at the articles referenced from the Template:White supremist organizations, one can see that only 3 out of approximately 40 articles include an "Ideology" (or something similar) section: Libertarian National Socialist Green Party, Northern Alliance (Canada), Russian National Unity, and on all three the section is 1-2 paragraphs long -nothing like the huge thing we have here. Also, all three do not use direct quotes in the extent they are used here (which could also raise concerns of Copyright violation). I think that this makes an important precedent in respect to this kind of articles. And according to this precedent I think that we should either drop the Ideology section alltogether (like the 37 out of 40 other similar articles), or drastically limit it to 1 or 2 paragraphs, without excessive direct quoting. --Michalis Famelis (talk) 18:44, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fake Details

As i read the "Violence by and against Hrisi Avgi" section, i saw this: "In June 2006, three members of Hrisi Avgi were attacked and severely injured by anarchists in Galatsi, Athens.[39][40] One of the Hrisi Avgi members ended up in a coma for three weeks, and according to police, a month earlier he had injured a police officer, and was a suspect in several attacks against immigrants and anarchists in the area.[40]" This fact is true but the only reference, that stands is Hrisi Avgi's press release. And there its is said that the person who was the victim of this attack was considered a suspect for injuring a police officer. There is nowhere a reference or anything to stand for "and according to police and was a suspect in several attacks against immigrants and anarchists in the area." Nothing at all. So i reshaped it: "In June 2006, three members of Hrisi Avgi were attacked and severely injured by anarchists in Galatsi, Athens.[39][40] One of the Hrisi Avgi members ended up in a coma for three weeks, and was a suspect for injuring a police officer a month earlier.[40]" Alex Gerakis 15:30, 14 of July

I erased all slanderous characterisms refering to Michaloliakos and the Greek Intelligence Organization (EYP). The link that proves these connections comes straight from the Athens IndyMedia Center, a clearly non-objective source. Although this foto comes from an IMC, [daily Greek newspaper, Eleytherotypia and Ios (Virus) journalist team's article (http://www.iospress.gr/mikro2000/mikro20000415.htm) has some published facts about it], these claims started first by a far-right personality and Chrusi Avgi's political rival, Sotiris Sofianopoulos who had this document (a payslip) at his possession. He claimed that several persons of the far-right political scene (Micaloliakos, Michalopoulos, Plevris, Dakoglou) where in fact Intelligence Organizations’ operatives statement that led him to the courts repeatedly. Eleutherotypia's article informs that Sofianopoulos' main motive was clearly to offend his rivals' electoral percentages. As far as the Michaloliakos versus Sofianopoulos affair, the court proved that the document in question is absolutely fake. Even the army officer called brigadier general (named Aerakis) who was claimed to be their superior officer, was found never to be enlisted in the Greek army.

the article was as it follows:

In December 1980, Nikolaos Michaloliakos, who was in the pay of the Greek Intelligence Organization (EYP)[1] and a group of his supporters launched Chrysi Avyi magazine. Michaloliakos (a mathematician, former commando and possibly EYP operative) had been active in far right politics for many years, and he had been arrested several times for politically-motivated offences.[2][3]