Talk:Christmas carol

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Do we want to provide a reference to Sufjan Stevens' Songs for Christmas ? Riccarrdo

Do we want to provide a reference to Charles Dickens's A Christmas Carol ? Chadloder

Do we want to include the World Record for largest caroling service? Mydotnet 01:05, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)

This article can't seem to make up its mind: "A Christmas carol is a carol (song or hymn) whose lyrics are on the theme of Christmas, or the winter season in general." And later on: "Secular songs such as "White Christmas" and "Blue Christmas" are clearly not Christmas carols, though they are also popular in the period before Christmas, and should therefore be considered to be Christmas songs." The Christmas song article seems to indicate that a song must be traditional to be a carol, but doesn't identify what "traditional" means (often is music it is used for an old song when the author is unknown, which is not true of many Christmas carols). This article indicates the song does not have to be religious to be a carol. The List of Christmas carols also seems to make some arbitrary distinctions between song and carol. Can me get some consistent definitions here? -R. fiend 03:50, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The problem seems to be between the technical musical terminology of a carol, which may or may not have anything to do with Christmas (Although generally having to do with Advent, Christmas, Holy Week, Lent, or Easter), and the colloquial meaning of carol, which always refers to a sung piece of music related to the shopping period between Thanksgiving and New Years. So, which should this article be on? Also, there is no such thing as "Medieval chord patterns". Perhaps the meaning is that they are generally polyphonic rather than based on Common practice period tonal harmony, which results in different sonorities. I'm not sure what exactly was originally meant though.Makemi 21:29, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia currently defines Carol as "a festive song, generally religious but not necessarily connected with church worship, and often with a dance-like or popular character." Yet this article says, "Secular songs ... are not true Christmas carols." Contradictory? And who defined these terms anyhow? Some cited sources would be nice when making sweeping generalizations about what carols are/are not (and how Christmas carols may/may not differ in definition from non-Christmas carols). Smells dangerously of Original Research to me. 66.17.118.195 15:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Merging articles

I would suggest that the article "Carol (music)" should be comined with this article "Christmas carol". All carols are Christmas carols. There are no Easter carols or midsummer carols. It is also very rare to have the music without the words (except in shopping malls). Ogg 09:43, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

"or the winter season in general." is incorrect as there are also christmas carols about the summer. There are two hemispheres; the other one has summer at christmas.

Ogg. From the back of my copy of "The Oxford Book of Carols",
"It contains 197 carols. Most are for the Christmas season, but some are for Passiontide or Easter, or for other seasons of the year."
Most people use 'carol' to mean 'Christmas carol', but there are other carols too. Some used currently at Christmas were originally New Year's carols. There are Lent carols and secular Christmas carols (The Boar's Head Carol and Sir Christemas for examples) and spring carols (Tempus Adest Floridum, the source of the tune to Good King Wenceslas). There's a carol for Saint Stephen. The Sans Day Carol isn't really a Christmas Carol, but one for the Easter season. The Furry Day Carol is a May song starting "Remember us poor Mayers all!" Nos Galan is a Welsh New Year's Eve secular Carol.
The point of this really is that 1) Not all carols are Christmas carols 2) What a carol is is hard to define, and really depends on its history, and the history of music. But we can all agree that Rudolph the Red-nose Reindeer is not a carol, and The Holly and the Ivy is. Skittle 19:58, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I stand corrected. Ogg 13:17, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the merge proposal. I think 'Christmas Carol' should be a heading on the Carol (music) article. Madder 19:46, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Boar's Head Carol

The Boars Head Carol is sung at The Queen's College Oxford not Christ Church Oxford. There is no Christ Church Cambridge contrary to the claim in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.177.68.171 (talk) 15:33, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Also called a Noel

Who calls a carol a Noel? DJ Clayworth (talk) 17:58, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Christmas Carols in classical music - cleanup

I removed references to Handel's Messiah and and the Nutcracker from this section. The paragraphs did not mention the connection (if any) to the topic. These works are not and do not include Christmas Carols. --12.119.210.194 (talk) 21:07, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History

I added a reference to modern Christmas carols, specifically mentioning the works of Alfred Burt. --12.119.210.194 (talk) 21:11, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Origin of the word

"It is not clear whether the word carol derives from the French "carole" or the Latin "carula" meaning a circular dance."

What is the root of the word? Is it 'car'? What does it (the root) mean? Is there any connection to the English word 'car'?

The English spelling is a mess: 'cirkle' is spellt with 'c' pronounced as 's'; 'curve' is spellt with 'c' but pronounced as 'k' .... and so forth. Let's write these words phonetically: 'kirkle' and 'kurve'.

Make a small experiment now: say these words aloud and listen to the sounds you make. You'll find, the second sound doesn't have an English phonetic: it is an 'ő' sound. Let's write the words phonetically again: 'kőrkle and kőrve. Since the English does not pronounce the trailing 'e' it can be dropped: kőrkl and kőrv. Now the root of the words is clear: kőr. But what does it mean? Both of these words are to do with a cirkle. Indeed, 'kőr' means cirkle.

Now it is that vowels change easily: ker, kar, kur, kir have the same meaning. Therefore 'carol' -> 'karol' -> 'körol' -> köröl is the same. Another experiment: say aloud 'k' and 'g'. Feel how you are changing the position of the very back of your tongue. These two sounds are very-very close to each-other. Indeed, they used to be interchangable. Some long time ago, at the down of speach there was no difference. Therefore the 'k' can be changed to 'g': ger, gar, gur, gir and still, the words are to do with a 'cirkle'.

Word-roots, like trees grow branches: something is added to the root and the meaning is extended. All these words are part of a large word-tree. Not all of them found their way into Latin, French, English, German and others. Some examples for Latin -> English and French are above. In German 'kirche' means church and 'garten' -> 'garden' have the same root too.

So how do we know the origin of the root-word. Easy: which language has the largest word-tree around it? That is the Hungarian. The word 'curve' in Hungarian is two words: 'kör iv' written as one word 'köriv' and it means the same as the English version. Is there any connection to the English word 'car'? In Hungarian 'gör' is a root of words to do with 'rolling'. It is now clear that 'gör' -> 'gar' -> 'car' mean the same. Hungarian has more vowels than English. The sound 'é' stands for the sound in 'gear'. Phonetically: 'gér' and it should be obvious now that the root is the same 'kōr', 'ker', 'kér' -> 'gōr', 'ger', 'gér'. Indeed, in the gear-box there are gears and they are circular.


'Karol' also means 'folding arms' as well as putting one's arm around someone's shoulder. Many dances use this element. Finally, in Hungarian 'karol' also means 'cuddle' thus the carol is not just a circular dance where the dancers 'karol' each other but the tradition holds the village, the community together by passing the culture to the younger generation via those songs and dances. (Bill 9-Jan-08) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.95.112.212 (talk) 01:57, 9 January 2008 (UTC)