Talk:Christianity in China

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[edit] Looking for C.S. Song

I'm looking for an article on Chinese theologian C.S. Song, but I can't find one and I don't see his name in this article. Is he hiding in WikiSpace, or is he MIA from the site? Thanks, Aristophanes68 (talk) 22:33, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] POV

The article puts high emphasis on sensationalistic views of American evangelicals. It should be based on academic studies. --Xi Zhu (talk) 05:20, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah really. There are some worrying neutrality issues going on here, but nothing that can't be fixed easily. ʄ!•¿talk? 06:04, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Could one of you please be more specific? I am really committed to making this article read from a neutral point of view. See Talk:Christianity in China/Archive - this article is being improved and getting better citations where needed. If you are going to put a Neutrality tag on the article, though it would be good to bring up a discussion, here so that we can attempt to build a consensus on more neutral language. However, this talk page is not a place to debate the subject itself. Thanks.Brian0324 (talk) 13:34, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
@Fennessy: months ago, a friend wrote neutral paragraphs to make this article non-POV. We should recover them. --Xi Zhu (talk) 19:46, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Brian0324, you don't define the subject. Xi Zhu has perfectly legitimate concerns, as this article cites extremist sources(Spengler is not a valid source, and neither is an ultra-conservative internet forum like the the free republic!) and completely avoids any negative aspects of the subject.
I see alot of edits have been made to the article but you would be better off fixing the references that are in a really bad way. ʄ!•¿talk? 20:23, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

By the way why is the intro so short now? You should am to make it a few paragraphs longer as per WP:LEAD. ʄ!•¿talk? 20:28, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Spengler is a notable source. Which negative aspects are ignored? You are right, there is much work to be done fixing the references. I shortened the intro to be more concise. It was getting into history and demographics and I thought that a "Development" section would be a good overview since the subject is so large.Brian0324 (talk) 20:37, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Trend of growth

Fennessy has removed the quote by Spengler (columnist) which speaks about the growth of the church. It doesn't take someone like Spengler to figure out that with the current rate of growth, more of the world's Christians will be living in China. There will be more Buddhists and Taoists there as well. I think that Spengler is merely summarizing the trend and his notability makes the quote relevant to the article. "Some have high hopes" sounds pretty vague and POV in comparison. "High hopes" that Christianity will become a majority religion in China? Spengler isn't saying that.Brian0324 (talk) 20:56, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

He says it because he hopes it. I'm sure it would be fairly easy to find a citation from an academic source which says something similar, albeit not in such a hyperbolic manner. I just don't think an anonymous internet columnist cuts it to make such a lofty claim. ʄ!•¿talk? 21:05, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
It's an attributed opinion of a notable source. You are making a judgment about his statement itself.Brian0324 (talk) 21:10, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
WP:REDFLAG, of particular note, "Exceptional claims in Wikipedia require high-quality reliable sources". ʄ!•¿talk? 21:16, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, here are the criteria for WP:REDFLAG Certain red flags should prompt editors to examine the sources for a given claim:

  • surprising or apparently important claims not covered by mainstream sources;
growth is the trend that is verified by other sources in the article
  • reports of a statement by someone that seems out of character, embarrassing, controversial, or against an interest they had previously defended;
none of the above apply
  • claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community, or which would significantly alter mainstream assumptions, especially in science, medicine, history, politics, and BLPs. Be particularly careful when proponents of such claims say there is a conspiracy to silence them.
if dramatic growth is not the trend, then sources that indicate otherwise should be easy to findBrian0324 (talk) 21:56, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Of course there is growth, no one is disputing that. However to say that Christianity will be a sino-centric religion in a few generations time(or words to that effect) is laughable exaggeration, and needs a much better source. ʄ!•¿talk? 22:03, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Again, you're disputing the content of the quote, not the verifiability. Do the math - it's not unreasonable to say that the main area of global Christian growth has been in China since the 1970s.Brian0324 (talk) 22:06., 11 April 2008 (UTC)
The Spengler quote is now better reflective of his opinion "speculates" instead of "commented".Brian0324 (talk) 17:19, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I modified it slightly to not sound so definite as it is after all just an opinion from an anonymous person.
Other than that is there any way the Missionary Expansion (1807-1900) section can be broken into two or something? I want to add a section about Hong Xiuquan & the Heavenly Kingdom of Great Peace in the middle, but want to do it in a logical way. After that the neutrality issues will have been addressed and the tag can be removed. Its just a major omission like that that holds this otherwise decent article back. ʄ!•¿talk? 17:59, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I added some material from Taiping Rebellion and a relevant photo. I would hesitate to add much more about Hong Xiuquan just because of undue weight, mostly. I am curious if you think that this is a fair treatment of this episode within the subject of "Christianity in China"?Brian0324 (talk) 15:45, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion of this article

I added to the intro of the Christianity in China portal more details about Hong Xiuquan's beliefs, and also more details about the Boxer Rebellion. Firstly I think the details about Hong Xiuquan are diminished because it looks bad.

Second of all, why is it mentioned nowhere here or in Christianity in China article that China was forced to admit foreign missionaries into China? This is discussed in Protestant missions in China 1807-1953. I mean if it's a matter of providing sources I can give you several. And I think it's an important point. User:Brian0324, I don't see what you are getting at by restating that "the Boxer rebellion was also directed at native Chinese Christians as well as all things foreign - so that is why it read "a reaction in part against Christianity"". The foreign version was surely the catalyst for the violence as the only native Chinese Christians at the time would have been Nestorian —an extreme minority that could have been lumped together with the foreign brand of the faith. I see a tag has since been added & I think it is relevant. ʄ!•¿talk? 05:35, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

This portal only reflects what is at the article, fight over it there. -- Secisek (talk) 09:27, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Fennessy, and I re-add the tag removed by Brian0324. Secisek: the portal does not reflect the article. Texts are different, and both severely POV. --Xi Zhu (talk) 19:40, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

This is supposed to be a summary of what is there. FIx it there and it will be fixed here. I am not taking anybody's side on this, I am just helping maintain the portal. -- Secisek (talk) 20:34, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

No, the problem is here and needs to be discussed here—the Christianity in China article has more than enough problems of its own. Whats more no one is "fighting" over it. All I did was add a few half sentences and it got reverted for no good reason, leading to suspicions of major POV in regard to this subject as a whole. ʄ!•¿talk? 21:26, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I said what this is supposed to be - I have not check lately to see that it is so. I will again update the mirror to relect changes that may have taken place to the article. It will be futile to carry this discussion on in two places. Argue it there, the problem is with the article, not the portal. I have moved this here where everyone may particpate. -- Secisek (talk) 21:37, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

To finally address one of the above concerns, the native Christians who were killed during the Boxer Rebellion (see China Martyrs of 1900)were Protestant and Catholic. Nestorianism has been gone for a long time.Brian0324 (talk) 21:58, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What about Jonathan Goforth?

After reading this topic completely, I was taken aback by the fact that there is no mention of Jonathan Goforth, the legendary missionary to China after Hudson Taylor. His work there is highly documented. —Preceding unsigned comment added by OldTimeRadioAddict (talk • contribs) 22:14, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Jonathan Goforth and the Manchurian revival deserve mention, here. He is on the Portal:Christianity in China as a topic link.Brian0324 (talk) 17:23, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Done!Brian0324 (talk) 13:34, 9 May 2008 (UTC)