Talk:Christianity by country

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Christianity by country article.
Article policies
Archives: 1
Christianity
Christianity Portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, an attempt to build a comprehensive guide to Christianity on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Wikipedia visit the welcome page to become familiar with the guidelines.
Stub This article has been rated as Stub-class on the quality scale.
Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.
Assessment comments
Archive
Archives
/Archive 1

Please place comments at the bottom of the talk page

Contents

[edit] statistics for each country

http://www.census.gov/main/www/stat_int.html

this webpage links to census departments for each country listed. Most seem to list religius afiliation. Eurobarometer is a poor source since it is a poll and does not ask about christianity directly. The CIA does not list all sources but they do seem to match the information given by the census departments for the countries that I have looked at so far. The census information might not be perfect for countries that have a state church, but should be used unless more accurate information is found. Reading a poll and then doing some math to determine the number of christians in European countries is to me, poor research, sorry. Also, say only a few percentage of people regularly attend church in Sweden, but how many of them answer that they are christian on a census poll? If they consider themselves christian, then they are (at least culturally) whether they ever go to church or not. Mykart —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.37.25.255 (talk) 22:45, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Mykart says: "Most seem to list religius afiliation" ---------- I just looked at about 30 countries at random and I found about two that showed religious adherence. This is the problem. The statistics for religious adherence are thin on the ground. Hence the current state of the article by adhering to varyiable sources rather than estimates. Vexorg 02:58, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rollback Eurobarometer version

Please rollback the Eurobarometer version, it was more realistic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.8.82.250 (talk • contribs) 10:19, November 5, 2007 — 87.8.82.250 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Yes it was more realistic, but unfortunately realism isn't a specific requirement of Wikipedia Vexorg 18:24, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is about verifiable information, not what information Vexorg "estimates" is "realistic". - Mdsummermsw 04:06, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
... and not what the CIA "estimates" is "realistic" either of course. Which is why I've gone along with the current verifiable version :) - I do think you'll find most people view the Eurobarometer figures as being most closely aligned with reality though. However that would be appeal to popularity and not verifyable. Vexorg 23:31, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
As repeatedly discussed, the "Eurobarometer figures" are not "Eurobarometer" figures -- they are figures, but they are not from Eurobarometer. We should call them "Vexorg's original research figures". - Mdsummermsw 14:58, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] US in Factbook

I have just reverted 76% for United States. Factbook says "Protestant 52%, Roman Catholic 24%, Mormon 2%, Jewish 1%, Muslim 1%, other 10%, none 10% (2002 est.)" Technically, it is original research to assume Protestant + Roman Catholic = Christian. We don't need to go there, though. What about the 10% "other"? Could be 76% to 86% Christian based on this source. Mdsummermsw (talk) 02:36, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Then how about >76%? It seems like an extreme measure to remove the entire figure. It's not original research to say 1+1 = 2. And if some of the "other" might be Christian, then the figure is at least 76%. --Anietor (talk) 03:18, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Exactly. Unless a more exact figure can be found, there is no reason to exclude that sourced from the factbook. Simple arithmetic hardly qualifies as original research. ~ S0CO(talk|contribs) 04:46, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
And seriously, compare this article to any of the other "by country" articles linked at the bottom. Do any of them show so many blank spaces as this article? As with any survey, no measure is going to be exact. We shouldn't exclude statistics altogether because someone thinks that some of them might be slightly over/understated. If need be, we can simply call them approximates, because that is all they really are or can be counted on to be. ~ S0CO(talk|contribs) 04:51, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
We are NOT saying anything as simple as 1 + 1 = 2. Currently, it says Protestants and Roman Catholics are Christian, no one else is. Or, we might read it as 1 apple + 1 banana + X food items = 2 fruits.
Mdsummermsw (talk) 13:20, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
The appropriate solution to that problem is 2+X, which is also the case here. As I said before, all of these statistics are approximates, because as with any census or survey there is a margin for error. These statistics come from the most reliable, wide-reaching source we can hope to find in this context. To exclude them on the basis that they may not be 100% accurate is a fallacy in its own right; while not perfect, one cannot deny the value to be found in such statistics. An appropriate note at the beginning of the article, or associated with the source itself provided it is needed at all, can be used to emphasize the fact that these numbers are approximates. But then, it is practically common knowledge that such numbers must be taken with a grain of salt. ~ S0CO(talk|contribs) 05:11, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
I said: "Or, we might read it as 1 apple + 1 banana + X food items = 2 fruits."
You replied: "The appropriate solution to that problem is 2+X, which is also the case here."
Looking in a box, I might report one apple, one banana and 30 other food items. You propose calling that "32 fruits". That is not correct, which is also the case here. - Mdsummermsw (talk) 18:48, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Soco is correct. This type of figure has been used for almost every fact in this article. Which is why >76% is a good figure. The Evil Spartan 06:06, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Well, I guess if "almost every fact" is wrong it must be right to ... um ... include more wr... Wait, let me try that again. - Mdsummermsw (talk) 18:48, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Essentially, the proposal is to:

  • Take: "Protestant 52%, Roman Catholic 24%, Mormon 2%, Jewish 1%, Muslim 1%, other 10%, none 10%" from factbook (so far, that's NPOV, verifiable and reliable)
  • Assume: Protestant and Roman Catholic are Christian, Mormon is not and some portion of "other" is Christian (that's POV OR)
  • Ignore: conflicting confidence intervals, error margins and significance levels (that's OR and a great way to fail any basic statistics or social science class)
  • Add Protestant to Roman Catholic, exclude Mormon, fudge to allow for "other". (that's unverifiable, POV and OR - a trifecta!)
  • Multiply the new figure (minus the fudge factor, of course) by the uncited population figure from a different year to come up with a laughably precise number of 3,668,158. Not 3,668,159 or 3,668,1587. It's 3,668,158. Really. Honest. Check our reliable, verifiable source.

Point-by-point:

  • Different countries added or updated by different editors have decided that "Mormons" are or are not Christians. As many of these countries' figures were drawn from Factbook you would think treating the question consistantly would be Job #1. It wasn't.
  • We do not know the confidence levels, error margins and significance levels for any of the numbers given. Instead, we are treating them as realities, rather than data. (While data are used to represent realities, they are not. The map is not the territory.) Assuming, based on nothing, that the figures are +/-3% to a 0.95, "52% + 24%" is really: (52% +/- 3% @ 0.95) + (24% +/- 3% @ 0.95).

That gives us (73% to 79%) +/- 3% @ 0.90. However, the official LDS position is that Mormons are the only true Christians, and some of the 10% "other" are probably in there as well. So now we add 2% +/- 3% @ 0.95 and 10% +/- 3% @ 0.95. We end up with 77% to 87% +/- 8% @ .81. Based on that source, numerous OR assumptions, unpublished calculations and more than a little fudging, we can say that we think there might possibly be roughly about a 4 in 5 chance that 69% to 95% are Christians. Go ahead and add it, with a cite to this talk item. I'm a reliable source because I reliably said I am. Care to add in the uncertainty from the population figure and estimated population growth rates between the underlying sources? I'm all ears. Mdsummermsw (talk) 18:48, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mexico in Factbook

Factbook (cited): "Roman Catholic 76.5%, Protestant 6.3% (Pentecostal 1.4%, Jehovah's Witnesses 1.1%, other 3.8%), other 0.3%, unspecified 13.8%, none 3.1% (2000 census)"

Article: "82.8% (2001 census)"

  • Wrong year
  • 76.5% + 6.3% + (0 to 100% of 0.3%) + (0 to 100% of 13.8%) = 82.8%?!?!

Mdsummermsw (talk) 13:30, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

The cited supporting source (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2122.html), says: "Mexico — Roman Catholic 76.5%, Protestant 6.3% (Pentecostal 1.4%, Jehovah's Witnesses 1.1%, other 3.8%), other 0.3%, unspecified 13.8%, none 3.1% (2000 census)". 82.8% Christian + 0.3% other + 13.8% unspecified + 3.1% none = 100.0%. 76.5% + 6.3% = 82.8%. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/mx.html says that the population of Mexico is 108,700,891 (July 2007 est.). 108,700,891*0.828=~90,004,338. -- Boracay Bill 06:02, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
This assumes:
  • You can add data in such forms (% with a margin of error, level of significance and prob.) and obtain figures that are similar. You simply cannot do this. Basic statistics (and it's [[wp:or|original research].
  • Absolutely NONE of the "other" or "unspecified" are Christian. Simply unsuportable (and not verifiable).
  • The data for the population figure and the religion percentages are from the same date. It is unlikely they are (and the math is WP:OR).
  • Multiplying a poorly supported (and unverifiable) percentage quoted to .1% by a figure of over 108 million does NOT give you a figure out to the ones.
Mdsummermsw (talk) 20:59, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Other religions by country

Hello ::Mdsummermsw :) - What about Islam BY Country. Hinduism By Country, etc, etc ??? Should we approacj those articels in the sameway. After all it's onyl fair I guess. Vexorg (talk) 21:14, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I figure we really need to get one of these articles to shake out into something verified, sourced, etc. before we start trying to replicate it elsewhere. Feel free to work on the others if you want, but I'm staying here for a bit longer first. Mdsummermsw (talk) 21:59, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Albania

I have just removed the Albania figure, given as 35%. The cited source said, "An estimated 20 to 25 percent of the population belongs to communities that are traditionally Albanian Orthodox and 10 percent to Catholic communities....In addition to the four traditional religious groups, there are substantial numbers of followers of Protestant denominations, Baha'is, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons), and other religious groups."

So, it seems the 35% was assuming 25% Albanian Orthodox (ignoring the 20% figure) + 10% Catholic and ignoring "substantial numbers of followers of Protestant denominations, Baha'is, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons), and other religious groups."

This is original research and/or synthesis. - Mdsummermsw (talk) 17:00, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Map sources

This map cites two sources for its underlying data, the Eurobarometer report and Christianity by country at Wikipedia.

Eurobarometer does not give country by country percentages of Christians or any data that can be interpreted to give this information.

The Wikipedia article gives no figures for 245 countries, single figures for 47 countries and a range for 3. (Russia, for instance, is given as 18.5% to 78%.) The map shows data for every country. As a result, roughly 80% of the countries show data without any source.

Mdsummermsw (talk) 13:19, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

But the Eurobarometer statistics are only based for the European countries, it shows the true percentages and adherents of Christianity in the European countries. Lets take United Kingdom for example, in the census as we know over 70% said they are Christians, but this has proven to be not accurate according to the United Nations. Plus the recent Eurobarometer was conducted very well to give a true statistic. We have used the Eurobarometer data to represent the *Europe* data, people are regarded as Christians if they say 'I believe in God' in the poll, they are not regarded as Christians if said 'I believe in a spirit or force'. Yes it does not represent the whole data for the world, but for the data of Europe. If true data is available to be used, then it should be used. In this matter, for Europe it can be used. Plus this is a new same version of the previous map that was present in the article, it does not make any sense to be moved now. Moshino31 (talk) 13:40, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
We've been through this before. The Eurobarometer study does not give percentages of Christians in any country. Let's take some examples:
  • Outside of Europe: Where is the data for Argentina from? Cambodia? Chile? Republic of the Congo? Cuba? There are no figures cited in the article and the Eurobarometer document does not mention any of these countries.
  • In Europe: Spain shows as 40-50% on the map. The article gives no figure. Eurobarometer does not give a percentage of Christians in Spain. What is the source for that data?
It does not matter if this is a new version or old version, if it was added just now or if it has been there for years. The data for the map does not cite reliable sources. I removed it. You replaced it. It is now your responsibility to demonstrate that the map cites reliable sources. - Mdsummermsw (talk) 15:14, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
This is a more realistic type of data for Europe, as we all know the religious minority groups are well below 5% in Europe (excluding France) for that matter, there is a high strong possibility the poll surveyed has been questioned to Christians, in all European countries there are strong figures of people saying they are Christians in the census data, but in the poll it has shown the people are not really Christians. This reflects the data given for the countries that Church attendants have become very low, for the UK - 7% only attend the Sunday services, and the census says over 70% Christians? Is that really realistic? That is why the Eurobarometer gives a more of a realistic picture of the figures of *EUROPE* only, lets forget about the other countries, the Europe data is inaccurate according to thier census data, the Eurobarometer gives a more percise type of figures of Christians in the countries. Moshino31 (talk) 15:25, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Please view: Religion in Europe
You have not answered the question: Where did the number for Argentina come from? Cuba? Spain? Are they in the cited sources? Where? - Mdsummermsw (talk) 19:08, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
This page [1] links to this page[2].--Carlaude (talk) 20:06, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
I know. That is the "Eurobarometer" report. Read it, it does not give Christian percentages at all. - Mdsummermsw (talk) 20:17, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes it does not give percentages of the Christian figures, but all European countries are predominantly Christian, if that is the case, the figures show that the people are not really Christians even though it does not mention religion, it focuses on the belief of God, and those percentages give a relative outlook on the percentages of people who are really Christians (high possibility of mainly Christians (so-called) in the poll). Remember those are Christians if they say, *I believe in God*, for example 38% in the UK said they do, therfore an estimate of around 40% are Christians (real percentage). Moshino31 (talk) 09:35, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Please also view this website where it shows the number of Athiests & Agnostic according to the University Press of Cambridge and local Religious studies (view European countries). The Eurobarometer reflects those statistics for the number of people who are really Christians. Moshino31 (talk) 10:17, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia demands verifiable information. The map cites sources that do not give the information cited. The map, therefore, is not sourced. Your arguments represent original research and synthesis. - Mdsummermsw (talk) 14:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I totally support Mdsummermsw arguments. First of all, the Eurobarometer does not provide ANY info on the number of Christians. Secondly the map is not sourced properly, at all. Thirdly obviously arguments of user Moshino31 are original research, and in some cases the conclusions he/she is jumping to aren't showing neutral_point_of_view. The map should not be used here until the proper figures are available. Andreyx109 (talk) 18:08, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

My friends. It is really not important whether they call themselves Christians, Catholics, believers, whether they name what they believe "God" or higher force, whether they call themselves "moral" etc. There is so much elements in the picture ... real world shows that people in their minds have both much of Church and of atheistic propaganda. What is really important nowadays is only the power of priests, i.e. Church attendance. The rest really doesn't matter today and even cannot be measured it is so diverse. – Can anyone give some recent world stats of Church attendance by country? TheUgliest (talk) 22:18, 25 April 2008 (UTC)