Talk:Christian left

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The Christian Right is uniquely American? What about Opus Dei? Le Pen? Or the various clerical fascist parties of 20th century Europe?

Jimmy Carter is no Republican, but I question him as a "leftist". Also, I can make a strong case that William Jennings Bryan, the prosecutor in the "Scopes Monkey Trial", who while Secretary of State served no wine at state functions (hence the era of "grape juice diplomacy") was so socially conservative that free silver and a government newspaper don't make him sufficiently "left" to trump the above.

Rlquall 21:02, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)

To add Opus Dei, Le Pen, and Fascists to the idea of a Christian Right is not sensible. There is not comparison between the American fundamentalists and their ideas and those of any of these. Though some on the political left might take glee in the conflation of racist facism with the USA right. Fremte 17:55, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Just a comment -- Wasn't early Prostentatism in America focused on a strong work ethic? To me at least, this contrasts with the socialist perspective that people are entitled to certain things ("rights") no matter what. Supreme Moolah of Iran 03:26, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Socialists often have a strong work ethic too. Also, socialist arguments focus on the immorality of capitalism, on the idea that a socialist system brings greater benefits to more people than a capitalist one, and on questions of private vs. public property. The principle that "people are entitled to certain things no matter what" comes only after those other, more important issues. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 23:31, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I wouldn't think you would be putting Christian fascists on the same page as the religious right in America, even if more than a few figures have a tendency to make extreme comments about certain issues (particularly gays) Supreme Moolah of Iran 03:29, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I've removed William Jennings Bryan and Jimmy Carter since they are essentially irrelevant to the article. In their place I have added Tony Campolo, Jim Wallis, and Ron Sider, in addition to a link that includes further resources. For now, that's all the updating I'm going to do here, hoping that someone with more knowledge of this topic will contribute. Michaelh 03:46, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Salvador Dali a Christian leftist?

Salvador Dali was an ardent fascist, so I'm unsure as to why he is listed here as a leftist. TheEvilPanda 04:21, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

link? Blackeagles 18:33, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Early Christian "left"

I've added a few points about the early Christian "left" (or more accurately since the term "left" did not yet exist, Christian anti-establishmentism or anti-materialism) but they need to be developed into proper paragraphs. Point is the "Christian left" didn't come out of nowhere in the 19th century, it draws on deep traditions within Christianity, traditions which date back to the time of Christ, and this should be mentioned in the article. AndyL 14:27, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Gorbachev quote

The article currently repeats the Mikhail Gorbachev quote about Jesus as the "first socialist" no fewer than four times, including in the opening paragraph. Once is enough. I don't think it needs to be in the top, since the idea is not expanded on, only repeated. Also, Gorbachev is a leftist, but is he a Christian? I'll leave the quote in the body, citing Gorbachev, but I'll remove the other three repetitions. Jonathunder 00:39, 2005 Jan 12 (UTC)

Actually, when I started to do this, I realized the Gorbachev quote isn't the only thing repeated. The article currently repeats sentences and even paragraphs, sometimes multiple times. What a mess. It needs plently of merciless pruning, but I don't have time right now. It's on my to do list. Jonathunder 00:53, 2005 Jan 12 (UTC)

At some point, most of the article was duplicated so I removed that. Also, I had removed the category "Christian fundamentalism", but it is back - can someone explain this? --Erauch 18:06, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I have removed it anyway. The same categorisation was added to 'modernist christianity' and I removed that one too. --Randolph 19:21, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Christian left?

Why is this article called 'Christian Left'? The more general category of 'Liberal Christianity' would be a better categorisation of this aspect of christianity. I was redirected here on searching for Liberal Christianity. Is anyone going to object if I start to incorporate this article into the larger category of liberal christianity? --Randolph 19:21, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

On second thoughts, it would be best to leave this article as a counterpoint to the 'Christian Right', and I will do something on Liberal Christianity instead. --Randolph 19:39, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I don't think Liberal Christianity is quite the same as, say, Christian Socialism or social gospel ie it's too narrow a term. AndyL 02:20, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Christian left is a counterbalance to Christian right, however, there is also mainstream Christianity, evangelical Christianity and even Christian communism which has definite historical roots. What all of these variations have in common is politics. I am thinking of creating a Christian politics (index) article to group all of these isms together to serve as a balance to Islam and politics ... right and left ... not to mention all of these other polemical "faiths". In fact I will do it right now. MPLX/MH 03:34, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Liberal Christianity tends to refer to a theological standpoint - the opposite of evangelical. You can be evangelical theologically while also being left-wing politically.KMcA 21:13, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the above from KMcA. See my user page. CyberAnth 09:17, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I believe that the depiction of Gorbachev as non-religious should be changed in light of current reports that Gorbachev has himself admitted that he is and has for quite a while been religious: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/19/wgorbachev119.xml

[edit] Criteria for 'Notable Christian Leftists'

The criteria I used are that the person should have a strong association with both the Christian and the Left. E.g. priests who became MPs, or people who wrote on the intersection of Christianity and socialism. But people who are on the left and happen to profess a Christian denomination are not listed. I have gone through the many articles that mention Christian Socialism. I didn't add 19th century figures since I'm not yet sure that was the same phenomenon. --Erauch 04:47, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

Is Karl Barth, hero to many conservatives/evangelicals, really part of the Christian left? I defer to others here, but it seems surprising to me. KHM03 00:42, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't know. I'm following the German article which says he was influenced by Christian Socialists, an adherent of Social Democracy, and against the Vietnam War and the arms race. --Erauch 01:59, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

I've added Hugo Chávez, as he claims a lot of inspiration from Jesus in regards to social issues. If you don't feel this is enough, then remove it.
Is he a Christian? Or is he just influenced by Jesus (a la Gandhi)? KHM03 18:38, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure he's a practicing Roman Catholic, and he's said that Judus was the capetalist for taking the coins and that Jesus was a revolutinary against the Roman Empire. I think his entry here is justified, but if you don't then so be it.
I'd question this, hasn't he expelled some missionaries and jailed dissident priests? Most Venezuelans claim a Roman-Catholic heritage and referencing Jesus for political purposes does not exactly support any religious devotion on Chavez part...jme66.72.215.225
He is Roman Catholic, and although Chavez uses religion and Christianity as means of propaganda in a mainly Roman Catholic country, he is NOT a 'Christian Leftist', he has many problems with the local church and the "Punto Fijismo". In Venezuela, the christian left is represented by COPEI I suggest he gets removed from the list. I'm Christian Bogado, venezuelan, and can give faith of this. Also, I can find sources that support my opinion, although they'd be in spanish. 201.211.90.176, 14 Oct 2006

If you point me to the sections in the Spanish sources, and if they are online, I can verify them. CyberAnth 01:26, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Historical figures

Can we try to add more historical, think: deceased, Christian left figures? Dogru144 14:31, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Australia - Peter Garrett

I can find no evidence of Peter Garretts christianity. Alan Liefting 02:46, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

See IV PG in Sydney Anglicans, also Report on Aust Chn politicians in "The Australian" generally known but documentation does seem scarce. Paul foord 07:41, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] UK- William Wilberforce

I added him. In a modern context, his persistent and faith inspired 50 year campaign against slavery surely make him a leftist Christian, though he lived at a time before these labels were appliable. Mindstar 7th December 2005

"in a modern context?", how exactly does opposing slavery make one a "leftist". Wilberforce is often cited by "Christian Right" folks like Chuck Colson and James Dobson, I think using him and for that matter John Wesley is a bit of a stretch, the left-right dichotomies of the USA and west Europe did not exist in their times and it's difficult to classify either man along those lines.

[edit] Liberation Theology

I think the section of the liberation theology should be given more prominence on this page as they are perhaps the most important exponents of the christian left today...2 lines is not enough —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Burgas00 (talk • contribs) 12:30, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

This section is particularly important with reference to recent South African history with people like Alan Boesak playing a prominent role. Roger 05:54, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] William Jennings Bryan

The way you discredit Wm. Jennings Bryan, you would also have to discredit Dorothy Day. 129.171.49.127 20:46, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

This article mustn't fall into the trap of thinking that everybody can be placed on some fictitious line that runs from left to right. We need to cover in the intro the specific beliefs that might be considered 'left wing', but which other left wing views might not be. I think it's also worth explaining what is driving the 'Christian left' - i.e. social justice and care for the disadvantaged. DJ Clayworth 17:06, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you that we shouldn't fall into that trap. I also agree that social justice is the defining characteristic of the Christian left. I did a little correcting to grammar and sentence structure. Let me know if my additions were out of line. Kimathi 23:38, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fred Rogers and John Kerry

Can we give any conclusive evidence that Fred Rogers did, in fact, donate to John Kerry's 2004 Presidential campaign? And if he did, is that evidence enough to qualify him as a leftist? I'd like to think that Mister Rogers was a leftist, but with the lack of sourcing I can't be certain. Anyway, comment on this if you'd like.

Mister Mister 12:11, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree that donating money to John Kerry's presidential campaign does not make one a leftist. The fact that Fred Rogers died almost two years before the election makes the claim particularly suspicious. Angr (talk • contribs) 12:19, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

While Mr. Rogers did donated to Kerry's campaign I've decided I don't want him on this list since trying to classfy him politicaly demeans his memory. 132.241.246.111 16:18, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jim Jones as a member of the Christian Left?

Although the list of notable Christian leftists is somewhat subjective, I find nothing to indicate that Jim Jones is a representative of the Christian Left. Most would debate whether he is even simply Christian. To Angr: Why did you remove the edit? RelHistBuff 11:05, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I see in the history that Angr has been insistent in putting Jones as a notable Christian leftist. Although there have been several edits removing this, Angr has placed it back. I believe this needs to be discussed. Looking at the sources, there is no support, one article mention that Jones believed in salvific power of socialism, but this is not an accepted doctrine among Christian leftists. Note that the source website also says that it is an "alternative" consideration of the Jonestown incident. One cannot simply state as there is a "source", a statement should be supported in a Wikipedia article. RelHistBuff 11:25, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I've been insistent on putting it back in because it seemed to me the sources do support the contention that early on his career at least, he was a Christian leftist. (By the time of the Jonestown incident he was indeed probably no longer Christian or leftist, though.) And it seemed to me people were removing him more from a feeling of "Ew, he was a lunatic cult leader, we don't want him on this page" than from sticking to the facts. When I get a chance, I'll re-read the sources. In the meantime, I don't want to get in a revert war over this. Angr (talk • contribs) 11:30, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
There is no doubt that he supported socialism, which is an indication of being "leftist", but I think most socialists would disown him as a nut. His followers were under the delusion that they could escape to Russia, but there was no support from the Soviet government. As for whether he was Christian, that is also a subject of debate. There are many good examples of Christian leftists in the current list as it is. Why have such a debatable inclusion as Jim Jones?

RelHistBuff 11:47, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, if the sources support it, why not? It seems entirely in the spirit of NPOV to show that the Christian Right doesn't have an absolute monopoly on megalomaniacal lunatics. Angr (talk • contribs) 12:02, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I absolutely support NPOV. I have been amazed at the neutrality of Wikipedia articles covering very controversial topics. But it doesn't really make sense that we have to search for "lunatics" in order to be balanced with another article. Besides, the list is subjective and it has a fine range of examples. I am sure that some would say that Al Sharpton is already in the fringe category. But adding Jones would really lower the quality of this article to the point that it would look like it has been vandalised.

RelHistBuff 13:28, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

That's the reason why those sources were added, precisely because he stands out as an unlikely Christian leftist. If the sources weren't there, it certainly would look like someone is having a little joke. But with the sources it's clear a case can be made that he was a Christian leftist, especially in his early days. Angr (talk • contribs) 14:10, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps a case can be made that Jones was a Christian leftist at one time. But I will use an analogy. Martin Luther was an Augustinian monk during a significant portion of his life. But no one would place him in a list of "Notable Roman Catholics". Had he remained a monk, he might have made it into a footnote in some Roman Catholic article somewhere. Similarly, had Jones remained within the theology of the Disciples of Christ while practicing Christian socialism in Indianapolis, LA, or San Francisco, he might have made into the footnote of this article. But like Luther, Jones completely changed into something else that defined him in history. I still claim that adding him would lower the encyclopaedic value of this article. RelHistBuff 15:48, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I would consider him more a member of the Christian Nutcases. : ) CyberAnth 09:20, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unitarian Jihad

I like to think the Unitarian Jihad represents the extreme Christian left. I'm quite biased though. Mathiastck 18:39, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

It's not clear from Unitarian Jihad that such an organization even exists. As for calling themselves the extreme Christian left, for one thing, it seems to be more a parody of extremism than actual extremism, and for another, many Unitarians don't consider themselves Christians anyway. (Many Christians don't consider Unitarians Christians either.) So if they're not genuinely extremist and possibly not genuinely Christian, I don't think there's much of a case to call them the extreme Christian left. Angr (talk) 19:34, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Huey P Long

Although Huey P Long wasn't religious, he had a huge following of Christian Leftists. Should this be mentioned?--64.75.187.202 09:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Weasel Words, inadequate citations

This article is compromised by Weasel Words WP:WEASEL and lacks adequate citations. I plan to tag the article as such in a few weeks. Preferably, those who wrote the material should fix the matters. The problems can hopefully be remedied before any tagging. Peace, CyberAnth 05:30, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Strike that. I am going to tag it now. Peace, CyberAnth 05:32, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Examples of Weasel words:
  • "some cite Jesus as 'the first socialist'." - who specifically does?
Mikhail Gorbachev most notably. Added reference and reworded that line a bit. mceder (u t c) 20:53, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
  • "Many adherents maintain that the early Church practiced socialism" - which specific adherents?
  • "Most people viewed the church as part of the establishment" - which particular people?
CyberAnth 05:35, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This article is NOT about the Christian Left

This article fails to deal with just its topic, the Christian Left. It has become a spittoon full off Christian Leftists. The Christian Left is a movement just like the Christian Right is. Christian leftists are another matter. If the Christian right article were to follow suit with this article, it would need to include sections on Christian rightists such as the KKK, David Koresh, Paul Jennings Hill and the Army of God, South African Apartheid cleric Daniel François Malan, and the like, and have Christian fascism merged into it. For these reasons, I am going to place the POV tag into this article. CyberAnth

I would disagree that this article fails to deal with it's topic. How do you define a movement without noting and examining those who are a part of it? A movement is nothing more than an idea (therefore not a movement...yet) until you add people professing and living out that movement. There is than a major need to tie "leftists" to the article to give a clearer livable definition of the movement.--Action.steve 19:03, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Christian Left is Uniquely American

The Christian Left is also uniquely American. The Christian Left traces it's foundation to Deism. Many of our founding fathers were deists, and many of our presidents have been Unitarian. Mathiastck 01:40, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Look at the number of countries at the bottom of this article with important Christian left thinkers. Besides, many of the early Christians thought that Jesus's teachings were more about helping the needy than promoting the free market, so the Christian left predates the founding of America by about 1700 years. --Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 21:03, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Abortion

Any group that supports abortion can not qualify as Christian left because it conflicts with social justice and nonviolence. The article specifically says in the introduction that the Christian left stresses the social justice ascept of Christianity, the pro-life issue is apart of the social justice aspect. So, according to the introduction, Pro-life organzations should be classified as Christian left and not pro-aboriton organizations. 75.3.28.188 21:55, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Anti-abortion campaigning is frequently associated with right-wing and conservative religious politics. Support for a right to abortion is an aspect of individualistic philosophy, which may not be socialist-left, but is definitely liberal-left. (The individualist might argue that "social justice" does not apply to embryos, which are not members of society.) As for non-violence, the political left includes revolutionaries as well as pacifists. Myopic Bookworm 12:45, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

The pro life campaign is also associated with left-wing and liberal religious politics. But it is not necessary to be a religious person in order to oppose abortion anymore than it is necessary to be a religious person to oppose murder. The arguments for or against abortion are both libertarian, right to privacy v. right to life. Abortion also doesn't just hurt an embryo, it ends a human life. A person who supports social justice would not argue that it is okay to kill any human being just because the person doing the killing considers themselves superior. By your idea of social justice, Bookman, it would be acceptable for someone to be opposed to racial equality but still be in favor of social justice, and not consider minority groups members of society. 75.3.28.188 03:24, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

It is not necessary to oppose abortion in order to be a religious person, nor to be a Christian leftist. Not all Christians accept the Catholic argument that human life begins at conception. The pro-abortion argument is not based on right to privacy. Myopic Bookworm 14:56, 14 November 2006 (UTC) PS I didn't say it was my idea of social justice, I was noting it as a possible argument. Myopic Bookworm 16:57, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Heh, old statements but... I would have to agree with the original comment to an extent. I will use myself as an example, but don't edit the article based on that - it's original research. I'm mostly indepentent in terms of polotical parties and what not, but I am part of the "religious left." I'm very much anti-abortion and pro-life to the fullest (including captial punishment and other forms of pro-life). So to say that it is a requirement of somesort, or to imply that it is, is kind of odd. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 02:02, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] No Sources

There is not one source in this entire article. This article is completely orginal research. The fact is there is no such thing as the Christian left or the Christian right. These are prejudice terms. Wikipedia has invented the Christian left idea, and it is very inconsistent. It talks about anti-war activities as being left. These anti-war or anti-racism views that people had did not come from any left wing idealogy, they came from Christianity. These same people that opposed the Vietnam war or racism also oppose abortion, other social injustices, and other sinful lifestyles. The article though confuses political left issues with Christianity. Supporting abortion is not an aspect of the Christian left. People that are Christians can hold these views, but they do not base it off of Christianity. Opposing abortion would qualify as an aspect of the Christian left, though, according to Wikipedia. However, no such distinction as Christian left exists. This was completely made up by Wikipedia editors. 75.3.28.188 22:03, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Religious Left as a concept is definately out there. Christian Left is not one that I've seen so much. JASpencer 13:03, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

The definition of Left and Right wing politics is a cultural thing, changing with time and place. The idea of a Christian left or right is just superimposing politics on religion, and I'm not sure that it is a solid concept on either side.Trishm 22:44, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Christianity is broader than left and right

These people who are called Christian left are not Christian leftists, they are simply Christians. Christianity can not be classified as either left or right wing. If there are any elements in either wing from Christianity, that does not mean Christiany uses them, that means that they stole those concepts from Christianity. 75.3.28.188 00:08, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that Christianity is not left- or right-wing, but Christians very definitely are. Myopic Bookworm 12:47, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

What about the Christian Middle? Why is it so black & white? There are Christians who are neither left-wing or right-wing because they don't care for politics. Or like me who who don't like either the so-called Religious Right or Christian Left. Azn Clayjar 14:19, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Because there is a difference. Politics is not a religion (though some politicians would make it seem as such). If you are a cChristian and liberal, than you are a Christian Leftist, and if you are a conservative and Christian, the Christian Right. The religion isn't what is divided, it is the political spectrum. And no one said there are no Christian moderates/centrists. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 02:04, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Consistent Life Ethic

If this is a "related" strand of thought, not actually a part of Christian leftism, then a link would be sufficent, and the Consistent Life Ethic does not need to be described in detail. This is even more the case if, as seems clear, Christian leftists may in fact hold either pro-abortion or anti-abortion views. What is needed is a non-partisan description of the position of those principal groups and people who can fairly definitively be called both "Christian " and "leftist". (Part of the present section also fails to make grammatical sense at all.)Myopic Bookworm 15:03, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that the consistent life ethic is the view held by most people in the Christian left. People that support abortion are considered on the political left, but I think it is a mistake to consider them on the Christian left. Abortion goes against Christian left values. 75.3.28.188 17:53, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, Catholics for a Free Choice and the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice are both identifiably "Christian" and "Left", as can be seen from their websites.

User Calibanu12.25, 23 January 2007

I'm sorry, but I don't see how an organization that supported Hitler against the Communists can be seen as left-wing.Trishm 22:42, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Christian Left vs. Liberal Christianity

There are several instances in this article where a reference is made to Liberal Christians and their beliefs. However, this is something different than a Christian Leftist. The Christian Left refers to political liberalism, while Liberal Christianity refers to theological liberalism. Alangdon86 18:16, 16 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] JS Woodsworth

I'm not sure if there's room or context to edit the article for it, but I figure it's at least worth mentioning here that though one could argue Woodsworth gathered his political ideology from his religious background, he actually had huge conflicts with the church because he found it interfered with his ability to help people. This could likely apply to quite a few people referenced on this article, I'd imagine. Input would be useful. --Jammoe 18:04, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Religous left

Why is this page called "religious left" while the other one is called "christian right"? Shouldn't they both be religous left and right or both be christian left and right? JayKeaton 07:42, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Clearly religions other than Christianity are concerned with political issues, so I think both should be under "religious left and right". If the Christian political divide has enough information about it in addition to what would be in the main article, it would make sense to have those to for specifics on how the religious left and right relate to Christianity. --Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 15:14, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

This page implies that religious "leftism" is neccessarily Christian. This is of course nonesense. What about the Kibbutz movement? Islamic Socialism? These leftist schools of thought should be addressed in any page entitled the religious left. I find this to be somewhat POV and misleading. Could someone please add information on leftist thought in other religious traditions? Wyldkat 24, August, 2007 —The preceding signed but undated comment was added at 20:28, August 24, 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Concerns

I am concerned that this articles subject matter is vague, and not very well documented outside talk show hosts conviction of the religious left. I am also concerned that several living people are listed in this article while they may not consider themselves, nor anyone else for that matter, part of the religious left. While I have not read through every word of WP:BLP, I am sure this is a potential issue. Thoughts? mceder (u t c) 19:40, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] major contributions needed

I've proposed moving this page to Christian right, because that's what this page is about. I'm not particularly prepared to contribute any additional information about other religions and "the left", but they're out there in great numbers and a wikipedia on the larger community of religious people with leftist views would be very helpful to them, us, you know...

(Seazzy 17:04, 4 June 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Harry S Truman and LBJ

I didn't change anything, but I don't think Harry S Truman and LBJ were "leftists". Democrats, yes, and perhaps left of center in some ways at the time, but were in no way "leftists".

Neanderthalprimadonna 04:31, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd also question why they, as well as FDR and Bill Clinton are on the list. Jimmy Carter, sure, he was known for being a strong Christian, this isn't a forum to establish anyone's spirituality, but none of these men were known for being uniquely religious, they just happened to be members of the center-left Democratic Party. The fact that they were to whatever degree Christians, is irrelevant as nearly every American President has claimed to be Christian. Unless they were known for reflecting spiritual values, publicly, I don't get the inclusion. Al Gore went to seminary and has claimed Christian grounds for some of his environmental beliefs, so his inclusion is reasonable, for example. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.72.215.225 (talk) 16:54, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I think people are misinterpreting things here. Democrats and Republicans have not always been conservative or liberal, or even divided by that. FDR is a Christisn Leftist because, at the time, his political idealogies were very much liberal and he was religious. Bill Clinton was religious, but I do not think his religion had an effect on his presidency. I think the same goes for Jimmy Carter, but although he believed in his religion (Christianity) to its fullest, I doubt that it effected what he did in terms of liberalism and conservatism. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 02:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Christian Left

This article is about Christian Left, so why not re-naming it into Christian Left? --Checco 13:08, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] notable christian leftists - where does this lead to?

Generally not a bad idea to have a list of christian leftists in this article, but this list has gone too far. I'm not the one to say "Get him out of the list, he's only left, but no Christian", definately not. Again, Im'm not saying John Edwards or Hugo Chavez or Martin Sheen are no Christians, I have my doubts at least with Chavez and I haven't heard anything religious from Sheen so far, but it's not my job to judge the faith of others. However with names like these you can add almost every left politician or celebrity who's not an atheist to this list. is that the purpose of this list? Greetings, Toksave 11:07, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Billy Graham?! WTF?!

I would hardly consider him a "leftist". Wow.

Neither would I. Is there some left wing position that Billy Graham has taken that I know nothing of? It is a big surprise to me. My understanding is that he is pretty conservative. If someone can't explain his leftist position then I suggest we remove it. Walter Max David 07:01, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hank Snow

Not a major issue, but Hank Snow was Canadian, not American.

This isn't an article on just American religious leftists. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 02:10, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] should we only list the living?

Or should we mark the dead?

Blackeagles 01:18, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Right and Left Christians

The article is a weak attempt to take an polarized American analysis of religious and political viewpoints and apply it to other countries and to history. There was no religious right or left until the fundamentalist rise of the 19th century, apparently made necessary by scientific advances that showed that biblical ideas about origins of life (for e.g.) were simply wrong. Not until politicians decided to appeal to the group which saw the world as a battle between right and left, good and evil, was there such a movement at all. The seeds of this are in the post-WW2 communist hysteria, reached a zenith with Ronald Reagan, and perhaps a second climax under George W. Bush.

I would suggest a thorough rewrite of both the right and left articles, possibly putting them together. The left did not exist (being much more diverse than the right) until the right said it did, so as to create a clear picture of the enemy so as to focus their efforts in opposing it. Fremte 17:51, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alice Cooper?

What is "left" about AC? Yes, he's a Christian, but I've heard him make pro-Vietnam war statements and last I knew, he is campaigning for John McCain for President. Not exactly a "leftist"66.72.215.225 16:59, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nelson Mandela?

While he is a leftist and a christian his brand of socialism is clearly marxist. Roger 05:54, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Remove list of notable people

The listing of notable persons should be deleted. It adds nothing to the understanding of the article and is only a listing of favourites. I say delete the whole thing! If someone really thinks the list is important, putting it in a seperate article is the best solution. Please indicate if you agree or disagree. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fremte (talk • contribs) 01:26, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree. This article has few sources, several mentions in debates that this is an attempt to take an American concept in politics, Christian Right and apply it to the "other" side. But I am not sure how many people on the list identifies themselves as Christian/Religious left, or even if anyone would! It seems the criteria for this list is to be liberal and religious. In non-American parts of the world, being liberal is not being on the left side of politics. I suggest removing this entire list for many reasons, but mainly for the lack of references and some of these entries fall under WP:BLP. mceder (u t c) 20:46, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Thinking more about it, I was bold and removed the section per WP:BLP and WP:OR. mceder (u t c) 20:51, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] American Celebrities

I don´t see the sense of having so many american celebrities in here, like Conan O´Brien and others. It looks patetic and politically correct. I don´t even know if they are all christians or if this has any influence on their life. I think the celebrities list should be removed.Mistico (talk) 16:56, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The list being added back in.

I am removing it again. Please lets come to a discussion and consensus here. I am removing based on WP:BLP and WP:OR. It has nothing to do with red links! --mceder (u t c) 18:04, 7 January 2008 (UTC)