Talk:Christian Death

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[edit] Early songs

Please provide reviews of landmark early songs.

[edit] Biased?

"Can someone seriously sort this page out so that everything is factual and not biased? I don't care if everyone loves Rozz, and I'm not a fierce Valor supporter (although the more Rozz-biased pages I see, the angrier I get), this is supposed to be an encyclopedia entry and should be objective, not subjective. Looking through the history of the page you can find some fascinating information such as the recording of "Sexy Death God" and some of the contributions of other people besides Rozz to the earlier albums, yet these are either deleted entirely so that Rozz is the main focus of the article rather than Christian Death (which this page is supposedly about) or amended to pour more derision upon Valor and everything Christian Death have done since Rozz left them. Oh, nowhere does it say the reasons behind Rozz not being on Atrocities... I think if someone leaves a band, the band are more than welcome to carry on without him without getting treated like a different band or getting stick from people for not splitting up entirely. That last sentence was an opinion by the way, don't put anything like that in the article. Cheers. Yours Truly, A Seeker of the Truth."

We seriously need something on the GOV warning on christiandeath.com in here whether prank/joke, or serious. i for one am curious.

I know there was some recent controversy in Europe about the cover of Valor's newest album. The GOV warning is probably a joke about that but I don't know for sure, so saying something would just be hearsay. Gabriel77 11:41, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Missing Rozz Williams albums

Skeleton Kiss EP. (C) 1992 Cleopatra / Vision of Fire. This CD con6ains remixed versions of tracks featured on the Cleopatra CD "The Iron Mask". Track listing: 1. Spiritual Cramp-Sacrifice 2. Skeleton Kiss-Fright 3. Skeleton Kiss-Alternate Death 4. Resurrection-Sixth Communion (LIVE)

The Doll´s Theatre, live OCT. 31, 1981; released on 1994, (C) Vision Of Fire (P) Cleopatra; limited edition of 2500. Tracklisting: 1. Birth/Death 2. Cavity 3. Spiritual Cramp 4. Desperate Hell 5. Deathwish 6. Skeleton Kiss 7. Dream of Mother 8. Burnt Offerings 9. Resurrection 10. Figurative Theatre 11. Romeo´s Distress 12. Dogs.

Contact me at myspace.com/alastristes 011001100110

[edit] Reference

Is the song "Christina death" by the band "The 69 Eyes" a direct reference to this band? Maybe this should be added if anyone knows better than I do.

011001100110 I am sure It is a direct reference, as they have done before, as in the song Gothic Girl, they mentioned some Joy Division and Bauhaus trademarks (love will tear us apart, stigmatas, in a satyre of the gothic scene...

And, the GOV warning is an advice, and you sill notice that if yopu read it all, since no-one will be burned down these days, unless they are from Irak and attacked by Bush...

Contact me: myspace.com/alastristes 011001100110

hey: just added some info to site and sent you email to your myspace address. i have photos also but don't know how to put em up. please contact me nursejohnnie@gmail.com J.Sage

[edit] Some thing about the slant of the page is wrong.

As a factual basis for wikipedia is essential, some of the 'opinions' about "Valors" ChristianDeath are inherently Wrong. It should not be written as a with Rozz and Without Rozz viewpoint as this ignores the vocal talents of Gitane Demone also and that of Valor. The BAND christiandeath is itself an entity, much like other artistic music. You can argue about sammy hagar and david lee roth, but it is still van halen.

Also, the info jumps about a bit and has not been written for ease of reading. It ignores much of the Pompeii 99 timespan which essentially ended up as Christian Death.

The box on the right hand side is more like a eulogy to Mr Roger Painter ( a fact that he already has a place on wikipedia and those aspects should remain there, linked to ) than the reflection of the actual situation of ChristianDeath being fronted by Valor as it was right back in the Believers of the Unpure Video will atest. This was 1986, and it is clear to most people that claim that rozz fronted, when they saw them live that it wasn't true. Part of the confusion was the different personas present on stage(members + session musicians interchanging).

Years active 1979 - 1985, 1992 - 1995, needs to be updated 1979 - 2006 .........to reflect that they are ongoing and currently finishing off a new album, long time in the making admittedly due completely to the bands unhappiness with the way that the sound was going and the eventual complete rewrite of the material - the new website will be completed also shortly and will give new insights into the mammoth back catalog of works.

Current Members of the band certainly cannot be Rozz, given that it is widely known that he is dead. Currently, Valor + Maitri are definately members, a fact ignored on the page.

The LoverofSIN side project also caused confusion, but the european tour also confused many as LOS were appearing and then Maitri Singer of Lover Of Sin would play two sets, as bassplayer for christian death with Gian Pyres freshly brought in from Cradle Of Filth on lead guitar. Definately Gian's guitar style brought a distinctive, less gothic sound to ChristianDeath. Much more energy driven. But Lover of SIN also had Maitri's Hard Metal at its Heart with Guitarists from other metal bands and an awesome drummer left no doubts that this was an entirely different band, but even though the CD sales were good in the US, the christiandeath name appeared on it, limiting it as some lacklustre releases under chritiandeath featuring rozz williams name had damaged the brand to an extent as people were confused about whther it was a quality product released officially, (or record company eager for new material releasing poor demos, which the fans wanted, but first time buyers would find no value in, as actual albums).

Finally, whoever wrote the bulk of this needs a gentle introduction to facts and less opinion and hearsay. Wikipedia needs the facts, verifiable. Some of these are anecdotal at best and downright untruthful otherwise.

For instance, Valor did not IMMEDIATELY SEIZE all the Rozz Williams art on his death. I can confirm however that heroin did play a big role in a lot of rozz's final decisions. Unfortunately, the struggle cost him his life. This side of things, without Rozz's testimony should not be explored too deeply in here. Grief has caused much anger from close friends, christian death the band themselves and his family. Its a shame that Rozz could not be content and confident enough to have used his own name more prominantly without the legal wrangling which ended up as ChristianDeath featuring Rozz Williams - as the real christiandeath were touring venues in the states, mexico, japan and europe. This following a court decision allowing Valor to continue under that name as one of the original members.

The Web Site Warning.....someone asked, think about it, are any more sites featuring such warnings? I will ammend and add the appropriate information, so that fans can take on board the full extent of the Christian Death Artform, live and recorded, visual and auditory.

Thanks.

[edit] Pt. 2

First of all, the warning is obviously a joke...

"Severe penalties will be imposed upon those persons intending to become involved with this

band and it's assiciate companies, fans, families, friends and unborn offspring.

Accusation of offences, with or without evidence and regardless of any connection,

whatsoever to any crime or illegal transgression shall be subject to:

A Maximum Penalty of Life imprisonment and torture or:

Burning at the stake."

"This website is forbidden to those persons under or over the age of 18."

Secondly, I agree that the article should also cover Christian Death without Rozz, although I'm a fan of Rozz and NOT of Valour. Valour has been using the name for years (although I believe he's wrong in doing so), and has released a lot of albums and has been touring, among other activity under the name...So Christian Death's existance without Rozz is infallible.

Rzrscm 13:38, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Valor owns the trademark, seems clearcut to me.

That doesn't mean that he created it or that Rozz's work is insignificant. Rzrscm 06:58, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

As the article is, its in cronological order in regards to what happened historically. Somebody who is familiar with Kand's Christian Death just needs to expand that section onwards.

It is undoubtedly Williams version which is the most notable. Google says, in terms of results;

52,600 - Rozz Williams and Christian Death
1,260 - Valor Kand and Christian Death - Deathrocker 23:15, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Christian Death is an entity in its own right, the significance of ROZZ is as a former member. It continues to this day, without rozz in it. What it has done since rozz departing is relevant to the page, the headings of the page are biased and weighted in an alsmost defamatory way against the current band, almost as if written to deliberately libel a person. That makes no sense in a ecyclopaedic setting such as this, so stick to facts. Owning the trademark makes no comment about any former member being insignificant or otherwise. Dealing with the VALOR or ROZZ hypothesis is only perpetuated by leachers and the uneducated. You are perfectly allowed to be a fan of both or all the work of christian death. So if you have anything factual, verifiable, please feel free to continue to contribute, but as it has been asked for to make this more unbiased, the document i propse will remove the headings and replace with a more chronological approach, which is sadly lacking at the present time Rzrscm.

As to the google rankings, what exactly are you trying to prove here Deathrocker? That williams is more common a term than kand? Try removing the williams and the kand...(

666,000 - Valor and Christian Death
68,900 - Rozz and Christian Death - LOL

Really if you don't understand something, You'd be better off not making rash comments s if you do, this is a place for facts and education not unfounded opinion- unsiged comment by Valor'sChristianDeath.com

Doesn't work like that... first of all you lied about the results. Valor and Christian Death doesn't return "666..." at all, nonsense. This isn't kindergoth 101, when you try to be faux-"evil".. this is a serious encyclopedia.

Second of all, the results I had shown for "Rozz Williams" and "Christian Death", are for searches with the quotation marks around each subject. So the results applied to specifically "Rozz Williams" nobody else with the name Williams.. and "Christian Death"... its accurate.

"Valor Kand" and "Christian Death" however, has over 50,000 less results than the Williams search. Because Kand is a far less prominent figure in the band's notability (and wasn't a part of their most critically aclaimed album). Scraping up merely 1,000 results. -

So a Google.com recap;

"Rozz Williams" "Christian Death" - 51,800
"Eva O" "Christian Death" - 18,500
"Valor Kand" "Christian Death" - 1,270

Albums;

"Only Theatre of Pain" "Christian Death" (debut) - 25,200
"Born Again Anti-Christian" "Christian Death" (Kand latest) - 700

The variation you are trying to make the article focus fully on, is incredbily non-notable. - Deathrocker 01:53, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I've made the article neutral and fair, presenting the band's history in chronological order as it should be. Rzrscm 07:53, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Neutral and Fair means You know what you are talking about and can make it verifiable. Repeatedly making additions regarding your own personal opinions are more on the vandalism side, once you have been informed that they are not accurate. Consider what you are doing to the page.

There are no longer personal opinions in the article...Only the history of the band presented in chronological order. Rozz came first...Then Valor...It's a fact. 1334 is also relevent because it's a reunion of the original members of the band excluding Rozz Williams. Rzrscm 09:16, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Wrong, Eva O was never a member and never will be. Rick only joined after album completed. Belanger was drummer, but Rozz sacked him. - How can a band that is dissallowed the use of that name in US law, be able to state it is reforming a band that actually exists? -- Where is you proof?

I was under the impression that she at least provided back-up vocals for the band at some point. It's a fact that the original members of Christian Death are reforming with Eva O on vocals, but they obviously can't use the name and seem to be using the name 1334...Whether they're in the article or not isn't important, so we could leave that out. Rzrscm 10:44, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Eva O did not play originally. So I agree, it is best left out. I am not sure where that came from, misinformation from a page way back in the HISTORY. The christiandeath1334 debarcle is being dropped by them at this time, obviously, they can use 1334 quite legitimately and as to songs usage, there will be licensing issues of course. They reform with anyone they desire, but the only one noted is Belanger, but he has no rights to Christian Death Songs from any era. CATASTROPHE BALLET. Not Sure as Rick Agnews comments are warranted, as they are hearsay. - Possibly removal. OfficialChristianDeath 10:57, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

The only pictures I could find of Rozz and Eva together are from the Shadow Project era, but wasn't that her doing back-up vocals on The Iron Mask?...Anything that we're not sure about that's pure hearsay with no verifiable sources should definetly be left out. Rzrscm 11:06, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

"OfficialChristianDeath" doesn't seem to know what he is talking about. O contributed backing vocals to the debut Christian Death album, and is credited in the booklet for it... she also recorded on the reformed Christian Death with Williams.Eva O Discography. - Deathrocker 02:02, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

That's exactly what I thought...As if there's no plausible way that she could have something to do with Christian Death if Valor has never met her. I'm all for making the article equal to all eras although I'm a Rozz fan, but I'm not going to help him if he's going to sit there spouting misinformation. Rzrscm 01:13, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NEW VERSION OF PAGE WITH NON BIASED APPROACH. BE YOU A ROZZ FAN OR VALOR FAN OR MORE PROBABLY A CHRISTIAN DEATH FAN

CHRISTIAN DEATH.

We will go into the pre-signing information.

Only Theatre of pain, its line up, what happened on their few dates, who left, who came in.

What happened next, which confuses the page somewhat, as the misguided direction of the article would insinuate a plethora of ridiculous occurances. We will investigate all of those things as seen from a third party perspective.

Then we will investigate each album and can add discussion here about what people can contribute that would be beneficial to the article.

The rozz williams reissues on cleopatra, adding in the christian death name was a big confusion, based on the record company wanting to capitalise on the commercial success of Christian Death without him. These things are verifiable and fact, if we stick to verifiable fact, and loose opinions to a greater extent, this page community can be beneficial to wikipedia. There is no point in misinformation, as the present page misses out everything of note that christian death has done that did not have rozz in it and some things with him even.

Please Feel Free To Add comments about this here. And Until this page has been finished, try and keep the Current Christian Death On the Info Box. I am not sure as the copyright is correct for it anyway, it features the trademark from an unverifiable source.

The page is for Christian Death Fans, not an individual band members fans shoutbox!

OFFICIAL CHRISTIAN DEATH (TM) SOCIETY

any non-spamming comments, greatly appreciated. Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by OfficialChristianDeath (talk • contribs) 09:27, 25 January 2007 (UTC).

So far, so good. We should include all important line-ups, especially the OToP line-up, and the current line-up.

The history of the band, from the very beginning to the present, should be presented in a completely neutral fashion with no biased towards Rozz or Valor, with no unverified rumors or speculation.

1334 should be mentioned at the end of the article, not as an offical reunion, but as a reunion of the original Christian Death line-up minus Rozz Williams. Rzrscm 09:37, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, I see you continuously pointing out that there's wrong, unverifiable information, but you've failed to point out exactly what that information is...Do you have any verifiable sources of your own? Rzrscm 09:48, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

You're also welcome to add information about Valor's work instead of complaining about there not being enough...You're the Valor expert, not me. Rzrscm 09:54, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I will add Christian Death information, Past and Present. The point of this talk is to point out the things wrong, Any edits placed in by me will be right. -- so agreed, no biased approach, that is what I want, Christian Death wants and the Fans Want and I imagine Wikipedia wants that too. OfficialChristianDeath 10:32, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good to me...At this point I'm just here to make sure the history of the band is accurately represented with no biased approach and to make my own suggestions as long as we both agree that it's fair. No more edit wars. Rzrscm 10:48, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Sounds agreeable. OfficialChristianDeath 11:08, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clearing things out

When i checked the wikipedia article about Christian Death i saw this:

Christian Death formed in 1979, and is still active today. The Band Currently is rehearsing for a US TOUR taking place in APRIL/MAY 2007 to promote the new album, due to be released very shortly. A European Tour is a possibility during the SUMMER MONTHS. Advice to all is to check ChristianDeath.com over the next few weeks for the latest information.-- is a band name that originally applied to the pioneering Los Angeles death rock group.

I did not know who wrote it but i assumed it was valor and friends. of course i deleted the awful and advertise-related part, after a while the so-called Christian death society "clear things out for me" in my user info, i just want to say that if you look at that you'll see how in an awful and lazy way the so-called Christian death society wants to see the band in the history of music.

It Is a biographic article not a place for making publicity (in a way that does not follow the writing style of the wikipedia community)

Paolo Sebastian -- February 1st, 2007

If he keeps it up we should probably make some effort to see that he gets banned, and this page semi-protected. Rzrscm 11:05, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

No, I Don't think that's necessary. All that needs to be done is for there to be a more balanced article to be written then things like this wouldn't happen as there'd be a proper space for them. The easiest way would probably to start this whole from scratch and forget treating the Valor line up as a different and secondary band by placing them halfway down the page. All that's needed are the facts. This page doesn't even mention that "Sex, Drugs and Jesus Christ" was the biggest selling album, the fact that "Church Of no Return" went top ten in the British Indie Charts and the fact that it was the post=Rozz lineups which enjoyed success in the UK and the rest of Europe. If anything, that's what Christian Death are more notable outside of the United States, and so this should be put in the opening paragraph along with "Only Theatre Of Pain" being mentioned being mentioned for the United States aspect. The sooner someone takes an unbiased view and just lists the facts with references the sooner we can relax safe in the knowledge that this page isn't going to get vandalised and edited so much. To cover the point in the 90s when there were two bands using the same name, maybe the "featuring Rozz Williams" (as it says on the records) lineup should be in the separate box lower down as they don't really fit in with the chronology. It could all be so simple you know. Oh no, this has become a bit of a rant. sorry. Azzjazz 22:05 12th of February 2007 (GMT)

[edit] The problem is Rozz' CD is not the same as Valor's CD

They truly are separate entities. Does Valor sing songs from OToP? I don't know the answer to that, but probably not. Christian Death, with Rozz singing, was a punk band. You can use other terms to describe it like "death rock", it really was punk. Christian Death with Valor singing is metal. The only reason theres a conflict is because Valor continued to use the name Christian Death.

Now this is been a question burning a long time among the people I've spoken to, why would Valor ride on still using the name Christian Death after rozz left? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cannibaltom (talk • contribs) 06:07, 18 February 2007 (UTC). +

hey man you cannot tell all christian death albums after rozz metal... what about,believers of the unpure ep, atrocities ,scriptures, sex and drugs and jesus christ and all the love.. they are all gothic rock albums, after that he had some flurting with heavy sounds, not metal (except from all the hate), i mean , you know both sexy death god and prophesies are heavy oriented albums but the all have one or two gothic rock songs, like temples of desire, and you must accept that the new album is definatly a gohtic album... you cant just say that this man did nothin for cd.. without him cd would be a a long forgoten name from the past. and one more.. rozz shouldnt have left after he left he've done nothing with chrisian death rage of agels and the other albums he published in 1990s sucked.. after he left valor IS christian death neither oyu like neither you dont.. who cares if he turned into metal.. the songs are goood netal or not.. and i dont say that otop, or catastrophe ballet , or ashes are bad albums they are great albums and rozz was a great performer, but he left.. so valor kept on.. and he will still keep on till his death..... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.210.200.41 (talk) 10:53, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding the supposed hijacking of the name Christian Death

I met Rozz, Valor, Gitane and David Glass and Johann--indeed the entire Death Rock scene--all at the same time in early 1985. Ashes had just been released, and the European tour had been booked. I flew to Long Beach and arrived just in time to mix FOH for the sound check and subsequent show that night at Fenders Ballroom. Barry was playing bass and Valor was on guitar. I had known Barry previously; and it was at his invitation that I joined the group as touring sound engineer. I don't recall ever meeting Jeff Williams. We did a few more shows with Rozz on the West Coast...the only one I remember well was in San Diego. Johann was in a different band at the time; and managed a rehearsal hall in Hollywood where both bands practiced (and which later became the weekly scene of what would later become described as 'raves'.

At some point in the process of preparing the European tour, Rozz quit the band. I was not privy to the details as I did not know him well. I was sharing a flat with Barry at that point (also living there: Duff McKagan of GnR). The European shows were already booked and deposits in hand at that point. Several other West Coast shows had to be cancelled due to Rozz's departure.

The remaining members of the band, in order to honor the contractual obligation, decided to change the name to Sin & Sacrifice and fill the dates. To tie in the Christian Death name (and the Ashes album title), they required the Italian promoter to specifically bill the dates with the following copy: "From the Ashes of Christian Death Comes Sin and Sacrifice" in all advertising. The lineup for the shows would be the Pompeii 99 lineup (Valor, Gitane, David), plus Barry on guitar and Johann on bass.

I remember the shock on everyones' faces--on the way to the kickoff show in Milan--upon passing the first poster proclaiming a 'Christian Death' concert! 'Sin and Sacrifice' was somewhere in there, but the advertising left no doubt that this was to be billed as a Christian Death tour. The band, including Valor, had no say in the decision.

It was a decision on the part of the Italian promotor that the band in it's then-current incarnation would be billed as Christian Death--at least for that tour. The rest is history....

As we had arrived in Europe with one-way tickets (banking on a subsequent series of dates in France and Spain to finance our return--dates which never materialized), we had little choice but to play. At the end of that two week tour, the local promotors of the Milan show (owners of Supporti Fonographici) financed the recording of "The Wind Kissed Pictures". In two weeks, we recorded, mixed and mastered the LP--and single: Lacrima Christi--and recorded the video.

There was heated dispute between Supporti and the original Italian promoter, which resulted in a ban on further shows in Italy. In the three years that I served as FOH engineer for the band, we returned to Italy only once--that year--for a series of shows to promote the album.

That's the truth as I know it. There might have been things that I, as merely the sound guy, might not have known of. When I say 'merely', I qualify it with the fact that I was the "entourage"--the band, Sevan and me.

To the various biographers: use the above as you wish. Much of it is available elsewhere online.

Jakdedert 22:16, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] People Are Just Being Dumb

People bash valor for no reason. I love all of Rozz's work, his stuff with CD and his other projects, and people ignore the fact that Rozz decided to stop using Christian Death as his band's name. Valor deserves credit for his work, despite the fact that BAAC lacked in musical talent. This whole thing is just another fan battle, neither Rozz or Valor ever venomously fought over the band, and ignorant people further fuel the fire between the two names. All that people really need to do is not expect the same kind of music from Valor as Rozz did in the Original Christian Death. I find it more repulsive in the fact that Rikk and Eva are now touring as Christian Death 1334 because all they are doing is playing the old Rozz songs at least Valor Comes Up with new material.

69.141.38.114 23:34, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

It should be noted that CD1334 are working on new tracks built with unused material Rozz left from Only Theatre Of Pain, Catastrophe Ballet and Ashes, as mentioned in the official CD1334 MySpace page. And even though Valor kept the Christian Death name by accident in the past, it's got to be said that he has become somewhat cocky since then; just read the comment about the CD1334 project on his front page. Gabber Foxx 17:49, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, i have viewed that message and it's more or so informative to people who might mistake it for Valor's Christian Death. Either way you take it Rikk is the only REAL member from the highly acclaimed and known (pretty much as the only true Christian Death Album) there is in the 1334 incarnation. Eva O was not included in the band until much later and she is William's EX wife, and all of her contributations were made post Only Theatre Of Pain, the majority being for Shadow Project. Despite all, at least there is still A Christian Death around which is better than no Christian Death. 24.187.0.39 04:57, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd rather have no Christian Death than have a Christian Death fronted by Valor. 70.162.66.142 01:08, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] page split

It says in genre goth rock/death rock yet in the article it describes the late as departing from it and becoming more metal. Maybe this warrants an article break, because they do not seem to share much more than the name. Rozz williams christian death is different than the later christian death, which could not even be considered a gothic band.

ROZZ BLAH BLAH BLAH, Valor BLAH BLAH BLAH... JUST PUT IN THE INFO ABOUT CHRISTIAN DEATH SO WE CAN HAVE INTERESTING STUFF TO READ ABOUT THE REAL HAPENINGS. AND ONCE ITS DONE, for gods sake stop putting pictures of rozz williams at the top as if it is all over. It is not. I mean ChristianDeath are just bringing out a new album, American Inquistition is Christian Death .com is to be believed , as as its their official web site, it cant be disputed. And the Eva O 1334 thing, is an utter disgrace.. Christian Death should sue them into the gutter, how can anyone sample Rozz and play his vocals after he is dead. Unfortunately he is long gone. I find it is just a way for sad old has-beens to ride on the shirt sleaves of the Christian Death that has existed for years.

Does anyone else but me think Valor made the last few changes to the page (which were reversed) and probably made the above comment? The cover artwork uploaded to the revision is called CdNEW.jpg and could possibly be the cover for Valor's new album. Gabber Foxx 21:53, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Update: To see what I'm talking about, check http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Christian_Death&diff=prev&oldid=128312756, though I did find the album cover as a shirt at http://www.247shop.co.uk/product/1016773/CHRISTIAN_DEATH.htm. Gabber Foxx 22:20, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fixed messed up layout

The article's layout was spoilt with superfluous blank lines, I have fixed that mostly. Removed from the introduction the text:
"and is still active today. The Band Currently is rehearsing for a US TOUR taking place 2007. The band Will be releasing AMERICAN INQUISITION on 15th October 2007." BNutzer 16:16, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I think those involved with CD1334 have EVERY right to do so. I would rather hear Eva (who by the way does NOT get enough credit where credit is due...come one she wrote ALL of the guitar tracks on Path of Sorrows)front CD than Valor any day. I attended the last show in Hollywood and there were no samples of Rozz's voice to be heard at all. It was absolutely amazing and there was no evidence whatsoever that these people are any sort of "has-beens". I don't want to be LABELED either a Rozz or Valor fan. I really don't care about the whole debate. The point is simple. He hijacked the name and HE is the one who is the has been riding on the coat tails of a once great but now gone artist. I hope the new album of his fails miserably. I hope people expose him for what he really is.

[edit] Christian Death 1334 Discussion

I believe information about the CD1334 reunion group should be included in this article as it consists of most of the original lineup and members of Rozz's second lineup. Opinions on who's right and who's wrong shouldn't matter when it comes to Wikipedia articles, and unless anyone has a good argument not to include the information that isn't influenced by their opinion on the situation, please state it here before I revert the article back to what is said about CD1334 before it was removed to 'keep it real' by an Anon. Gabber Foxx 11:16, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Right, I've done a cleanup of the article, readded CD1334's info and removed some biased test formatting. Gabber Foxx 22:13, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Surely it's more biased now the shift has changed to an outdated lineup and not the current lineup. It's not all about Rozz, he may have started the whole thing but it's Valor's band now. These things happen, see Ultravox after John Foxx left and Midge Ure took over and many others. I'm not trying promote one band over the other I just think that making Rozz the centre of everything is taking things way over the top. Christian Death made much of a name for themselves in Britain at least with Valor's late 80s material, especially the Church Of No Return single and the Sex, Drugs and Jesus christ album. American Inquisition needs a much larger section as well, this is the first album in seven years, and that's quite important, more so than CD 1334 in my opinion, but that doesn't mean you should remove that section. Azzjazz, 22:33 25 August 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.16.124.214 (talk) 21:37, August 25, 2007 (UTC)

I didn't remove the American Inquisition cover or edit anything out of the info about Valor, feel free to revert/add to it. Gabber Foxx 12:36, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Britain can HAVE Valor for all us Yanks care. Give us CD1334. It was never Valor's band to have. This isn't freakin Van Halen. CD1334 deserve to have their OWN section in t his article.

Oh...stop flogging a dead horse. Seriously. That is your POV.Crescentia (talk) 02:12, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Official Christian Death ®

This page is constatntly written to with opinions and non factual rubbish, which simply need changing and then leaving alone.

I have now prepared an unbiased wiki article which I wish to place on here, knowing full well that 5 minutes later, the fools that wish to write things they know little about, or have a vested interest in making it appear that facts can be altered to suit their own quest to become CD, will desperately alter the content.

The article needs protecting and only updateable by official christian death facts. People that want information about any past members will have to have pages dedicated to them. But the article should be adhered to as much as facts allow. 3rd party discussion regarding Valor or Rozz should be eliminated in favour of the Christian Death Biography.

message me at myspace.com/Official_Christian_Death to have discussion about page.

ARTICLE I PROPOSE IS THUS:-- text only- I will alter the page to format correctly, and alter the main page, -- add feedback to this AFTER MY DISCUSSION in thread called - Editing Talk:Christian Death® (comment) , not inside this.

CHRISTIAN DEATH

BIOGRAPHY & Discography

In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth. Then Christian Death turned it upside down.

History Officially there have been over 30 musicians involved with the band. Therefore a historical litany of them all would be impractical.

Formed in Los Angeles and fronted by 16 year old vocalist/lyricist Rozz Williams, the band released the first album “Only Theatre Of Pain in 1982. A dark, sinister style of punk rock. The album gained local success. A year later the band completely broke up

Singer Rozz then joined the band “Pompeii 99' founded by singer, guitarist, song writer Valor. Rozz took over vocals leaving Valor to focus on guitar. Before Rozz joined Pompeii 99, the band had already released their fist album “Look At Yourself” to much acclaim, which had an apocalyptic theme with a punk rock flavor. The Pompeii 99 had been planning their first tour when it was proposed by their French record company, to merge Pompeii 99 into a new version of Christian Death which after some debate was agreed upon. Thus, began the new Christian Death and the first Pompeii 99 tour became the first Christian Death tour.

Part way through the tour the band stopped in Wales to record songs, some of which were originally intended for the next Pompeii 99 album. The fusion of which led to the unique sound of the classic “Catastrophe Ballet”. Like the first Pompeii 99 album, Catastrophe Ballet had an apocalyptic theme, however the music morphed into something not quite Pompeii 99 and nothing like the first Christian Death album. After the tour the band returned to LA to later record the 3rd Christian Death album”Ashes”which was a post apocalyptic vision of a cold and bleak future.

After confirming the 2nd tour in 85 singer Rozz quit the band. Valor returned to vocals, the band embarked on the 2nd tour. In Italy the band recorded the mini album “The Wind Kissed Pictures”, a surrealist view of a mystical past. Almost immediately work began on the 4th full length album “Atrocities” inspired by the atrocities of World War II and the connection to future shock waves. While continuously touring in 87 the band released the 5th and now classic album “The Scriptures”, the theme of which explored world religion and how the legacy of these beliefs impact our world today.

1988 Brought us the release of “Sex & Drugs & Jesus Christ”. This was turning point for the band. The cover depicted an image of Jesus shooting up heroin. This was a full frontal attack by Valor against the Church with a scathing heretical mockery of organized Christianity. The band then found themselves confronted by protesters, riots and bomb threats, These events and the bands imagery and fashion went on to influence the likes of Nine Inch Nails, Korn, Marilyn Manson, Type O Negative, every Goth band on the planet and many others.

1989 saw the release of the double album epic “All the Love, All the Hate” interpreting the juxtaposition between life and death, day and night, man and woman, black and white.

In 1991 came the release of “Insanus, Ultio, proditio, Misericordiaque”, with its theme of an ancient dream state.

Late in 91, after being in several other bands and seven years after quitting Christian Death, Rozz was persuaded by unscrupulous profiteers to perform at a concert in Los Angels under the name Christian Death. On the same day Christian Death was in Europe performing in Paris, France. Assuming this was a one time effort to earn extra cash, as explained to Valor by Rozz, Valor ignored the incident and carried on recording and touring, only to later learn that a live album of the show had been released using the name Christian Death followed by a hastily recorded studio album also using the name, which led to a turf war. As accusations and rumors against Valor were spread by the profiteers and financial backers of these unofficial releases, fans were left confused. Valor pushed on.

By 1994, female vocalist and bass guitarist Maitri, (the now 2nd most continuous member of Christian Death) joined the band to record “Sexy Death God” which proclaimed sexual freedom in the face of religious adversity.

In 1996 was the release of “Prophecies” with its theme based on the Apocalyptic prophecies of soothsayers throughout the ages”.

Sadly in 1997, Rozz committed suicide. It is believed heroin played a role. No suicide note was found.

In 1998 Christian Death released “Pornographic Messiah” a colorful elaborate return to the sex versus religion theme.

In 1999 Christian Death released “Born Again anti Christian”which featured members of Cradle of Filth and a song sung by Dani Filth. The album theme was an assault on Born Again Christians as well as having the first songs inspired by mass murderers . In 2000 the band promoted the album on tour with Cradle Of Filth. While on tour with Cradle Of Filth, former Cradle of Filth Drummer Will Was Sargenson played in Christian Death.

In 2002, Maitri released her debut album and band Lover Of Sin with songs and production collaboration by Valor. Later that year Cradle Of Filth guitarist Gian Peres joined Christian Death for the 2003 tour, Lover Of Sin was the support.

Now in 2007, Christian Death announce the forthcoming release of their 13th studio album “AMERICAN INQUISITION”.

To be continued....

“Christian Death take a relentlessly confrontational stand against organized religion and conventional morality, with an appetite for provocation that makes Marilyn Manson look like Stryper”.- VH1

“One of the top ten goth bands of all time” - Rolling Stone magazine

I find this has relevant points correctly and features a little background, without the flowery opinionated rubbish written over the time, (see history).

I do note that a couple of tribute bands out there want to play songs, like many tribute bands do, but i cant see any reason for including such trivia on a page such as this. Does REM or U2 feature their tribute bands?

The latest incarnation even makes out a certain female was in pompeii 99 + christian death(but she never played live or officially released ...) Official details are removed in favour of Blatent Lies.

I honestly cannot see why there is such a fuss about this sites christian death article being altered to the point of it being useless.

Keep it Real. written by Christian Death ® for use in WIKI ARTICLE

Christian Death Society

OfficialChristianDeath 12:59, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Editing Talk:Christian Death® (comment)

This is not an "Official" Christian Death. Valor didn't create the name Christian Death. The only thing Valor has a right to, should be the "Official Backing Group to Rozz who stole the name Christian Death from Rozz" name.--DeathCK

Add your comments in here please. OfficialChristianDeath 13:02, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

-- I will make this live, no one have anything to add ? -- --

OfficialChristianDeath 09:48, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Much of it has an unencyclopedic tone. It leaves out way too much information. Improve the article we have instead of gutting it. I do agree that the article seems to have a bias favoring the original lineup, but that doesn't mean it needs a complete rewrite. --Onorem♠Dil 10:38, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I second what Onorem is saying - improve the article, don't gut it to a mere biased promotion of the band's latest album. History is history, and is relevant no matter what opinion fans are split between. Any extreme edits like what you did before will be reported. Gabber Foxx 10:15, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Needs Complete rewrite, What original line up, these 1334 tribute band? No. The article needs to be current and factual, as it is it is lies and conjecture from people who have no idea.

Also GabbeFoxx - if you must alter things, make it so that it is correct, CD is a current band, (???)1979 -2007, band mambers need to reflect reality(valor and maitri).. If you continue to change things without the factual basis required you are showing yourself up as unable to edit unbiased. and should be removed from this project.

OfficialChristianDeath 10:55, 20 September 2007 (UTC) !

It would appear gabberfoxx that your edits are being not being made in good faith, as you knowingly alter the infobox information to be wrong.

OfficialChristianDeath 11:10, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I don't have time to really get into the rewrite itself right now, but I'd like to think that this article could be modeled after the Van Halen article. Current members should be listed in the infobox at the top with former members underneath in the same box. There shouldn't be 2 infoboxes in this article. If we are treating these as 2 completely separate bands, then there should be 2 completely separate articles. There should be a brief introduction which covers major points and lineup changes. Then there should be a chronological history including all of the various lineups. I do think that 1334 should at least be mentioned if it is verifiably made up of former members. (I'm not saying that they need equal space, just that they should be mentioned) --Onorem♠Dil 11:12, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

That would mean over 30 people in the info box, i think if anyone can be bothered, verifiable members should be placed at the bottom of the article. 1334 is a tribute band, nothing more. The article text is written, as it stands, the article that has been replaced back is full of untruths and unverifiable conjecture.

The main thing is that the band as it is today should be acknowledged, and not constantly erased by the acts of people in with less than a genuine good faith mistake. Links to other articles are fine, which is where 1334, member profiles etc should be placed.

Anyone wanting to write this article should contact me. Either here or at the official christian death myspace page, or at my email wiki @ the bands domain.

NOTE - don't hijack the page as a Rozz Williams obituary, this is not the place, and it does not honour him in the slightest, let him rest in peace.

OfficialChristianDeath 11:25, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Please stop trying to own this article. Nobody needs to contact you if they want to write this article.

I'm not sure if you saw my note on Talk:Christiandeath so I'll repeat it here. Please review this guideline on conflicts of interest.--Onorem♠Dil 11:29, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

If that would make the infobox too big, then just list the major members there. I would think that means at least the current lineup, and original lineup. The rest of the members (yes, all 30+) should be mentioned in the correct places in the history section. You keep saying 1334 is just a tribute band. I don't know anything about them, but it seems a different claim is being made in the article. Are you saying that 1334 is not made up of former members? --Onorem♠Dil 11:33, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

OCD - The only time I ever change the infobox is when I revert the article back to an old state after a promotional or god awful edit is made, and even then I've never directly modified the box further from a typo, feel free to link to when I have done so to the degree you've mentioned. The infobox at the top of the article atm is now perfect in my opinion, just add one of the images from Valor's Christian Death MySpace page and it'll be fine. All I've ever done to the article itself is level the playing field between the biased Rozz and Valor points, cleanup the writing and add the CD1334 section. Now, from what I remember, Wikipedia stands strongly against the modificationn of articles from direct partys involved (Sony against Halo 3, politicians bigging up their own bios) and when someone suggests to stand an article with "In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth. Then Christian Death turned it upside down." it's highly diverse from the standard Wikipedia layout and your suggested version on your user page would never pass the quality standard Wikipedia asks for its articles because of it's own bias and unclear writing. Gabber Foxx 06:49, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Valor is disgusting. (unsigned) november 26 2007

if this is a fuckin page for all christian death history then fuckin put in the Associated acts shadow project,heltir,daukus karota,rozz williams,demonix,gitane demone,exp,eva o,adolescents,social distortion and sixth chamber for the name of fuck... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.210.165.11 (talk) 15:12, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

FYI...I undid the recent rewrite by "ValorKaend." It was a complete mess. The layout was terrible, it was full of grammatical and spelling errors, and since I have every reason to believe the article was written by Valor Kand himself (see ValorKaend's comment in the history section), there would be absolutely no way to defend it as an unbiased history of Christian Death.(98.220.43.195 (talk) 23:04, 5 April 2008 (UTC))

[edit] OTRS complaint

OTRS had a complaint about this article from Valor Kand. He feels very upset about the article, and it being quite unflattering about his role in the band (the breakup(s) and the various versions of the band involving more than a little bitterness). I've asked Arkady Rose to have a look over it, and anyone else who has GOOD SOURCES to hand and feels they can do a decently neutral and understated job on the history of the various bands should please do so - David Gerard (talk) 10:12, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rumors

I'm putting this on the talk page for now until whoever added it can provide a reliable third-party source:

Rumor has it that the offer came from Brian Perara of Cleopatra records who, in an under handed move, personally attempted to obtain the trademark to the name Christian Death, without success as the rights already belonged to Valor.

Thanks, J Readings (talk) 17:53, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Valor Kand

Is Valor Kand's surname (last name) Kand or Valor? If it's Kand, encyclopedia entries don't use the first name in reference. I changed it Kand, but an anon IP changed them all back. J Readings (talk) 22:17, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

His full name is Valor Kand, but for the purposes of Christian Death, he has mostly been simply known as Valor. Kind of a Madonna, Cher type thing, I guess. Either way, I'd say it's correct.98.220.43.195 (talk) 22:27, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Virtually no references...very, very, very bad

Despite its length, this article contains virtually no references from reliable third-party sources. In fact, it contains virtually no references at all! I added one from the New York Times. Since then, editors have not followed by adding sources of their own. Instead, we gets lots of activity, edit wars, and writes (and re-writes) with virtually no one adding citations to their own new edits. This is very, very, very bad folks. It suggests that the contributing editors are simply adding original research (see WP:OR) and their own thoughts and biases rather than reporting what other reliable sources are saying. Please remember: an encyclopedia entry is simply a tertiary source that uses reliable secondary sources ONLY (see WP:V, WP:NOT, and WP:ATT).

I tagged this article two weeks ago in the hope that other editors would finally get the point. Apparently, it hasn't sunk in yet. If this manner of unsourced editing continues, someone will have to start removing large sections of this article (perhaps most of it!) until it can be sourced. Sorry, J Readings (talk) 12:46, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] C.D. played in the Batcave club?

Really? Is there a reliable source? --WaddleDuck (talk) 14:57, 11 May 2008 (UTC)