Talk:Chris Conley

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on September 29, 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

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[edit] Major Work Needed

I did some stylistic changes, fixed grammatical errors, and added links. I think a lot of the information, especially that regarding Saves the Day albums, can be taken out since that should be covered in the Saves the Day article rather than the Chris Conley article. The most significant problem with this article is that there are no citations. If the author could find some, that would greatly improve this article. (Colinsweet 12:26, 3 August 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Redirection of Chris Conley

I noticed some time ago that this page had been redirected without discussion. As the article had been in place for nearly 12 months and edited by a significant number of experienced editors who believed the subject was notable, I reverted back to the bio article as the community had deemed it notable, whilst one user User:Eusebeus did not. If anyone questions the notability, take it to AfD and let the community vote, don't just perform a vigilant redirect.

If you want that article to survive vigilant editors, you will need to establish the notability of the subject, sorry. --Jack Merridew 09:31, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see how tacking a speedy delete on this article is acting in good faith. R:128.40.76.3 10:30, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

OK, after a third party admin has stepped in asserted that the subject is in fact notable, i have gone on and added an info box and a bit of information to the article. If editors could improve content rather than slap tags and redirects on vast numbers of articles, wikipedia would actually benefit rather than waste the time of editorsand admins. R:128.40.76.3 11:58, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Establishing Notability

Is there any reason why the Chris Conley link redirects here?

I don't think so, it'll revert back

I see it has been reverted back, and then back again whie I was blocked, citing sockpuppetry (a little bit hard since I was blocked!). lol. He haqs not even discussed his changes here, so rather than just enter a pointless edit war i'll drop a line by an admin and see if we can get this sorted out. Eusebeus is obviously trying to make a WP:POINT, however he has already been warned about this dispute. R:128.40.76.3 09:01, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

OK, before you go wasting the time of some admin and more of my time, please familiarise yourself with Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Check out the relevant pages at WP:BLP, WP:MUSIC, and most importantly WP:RS (which this article egregiously violates), WP:V and WP:N. This article was a jumble of unsourced, unverifiable, unencyclopedic facts about someone whose only slight claim to any notability is through his obscure band. So, my good R:128.40.76.3 you have two choices if you wish to deter my reverting on this. Either clean up this article so it meets the standards that are outlined above (and pay PARTICULAR attention to the exigencies of BLP), or else accept that a redirect is the best remedy. Eusebeus 12:33, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

(Crossposted from User talk:Phaedriel) WP:BLP is non-negotiable. Any unsourced material about a living person can be removed. Will (talk) 20:29, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see how the article does not meet WP:BLP, WP:MUSIC, WP:V and WP:N and believe that the onus is on you to justify your redirect. I consulted an admin as i do not wish to continue an edit war. I really believe that in this case you are just making a WP:POINT and being to stubborn to accept that the article is notable. Do you need to be reminded that you have been warned already about entering into this dispute and making disruptive edits? R:128.40.76.3 20:45, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Will, must have been an edit conflict. I have reverted the redirect and added references to all claims made in article. R:128.40.76.3 21:07, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Bring the article up to speed; that's fine. As it stands, this still fails the criteria set out at WP:MUSIC. An edit war is when editors disagree about content. Your bad luck is that a seasoned editor who knows wiki policy has found this article wanting with regard to the standards laid out. Improve it, or else it should be redirected; otherwise I will bring it to AfD. Eusebeus 22:37, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
You need to actually cite sources. I did one; several of the links I tried failed to load and if others find this is the case they should be removed; several that did load are non-reliable. --Jack Merridew 10:36, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I reformatted the sources so they appear as References, and substituted the unreliable ones for newspapaer and magazine articles. I have also started to address some of the criteria how WP:MUSIC notability is achieved here. R:128.40.76.3 13:14, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Ok, you are definitely getting somewhere with that. Now, you need to make sure you establish that this fellow is notable independently of his band; that justifies an entry per WP:MUSIC and WP:BIO; the links so far suggest that he is notable through his band, although if you can find some good links to notability as a solo artist, that will make a good case and will wrest concession from me that this should stand alone. Please make sure you respect WP:BLP as well. Btw, the article needs a major rewrite if it stays. This should not rehash the substance of 8 interviews he has given to different magazines. If notability as an independent artist is asserted, I will have a go at wikifying it. Eusebeus 07:19, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree, the article is progressing. You need to read up on licensing; on the new image (Image:ChrisC.jpg) you've uploaded you stated: "Self Authored. Captured still from video podcast, and then cropped. I will licence [sic] as open source." You can't claim authorship and release something you 'captured' from a podcast. This is still their image (whoever, exactly, 'they' are). --Jack Merridew 11:18, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Ok, I still see nothing here that justifies a separate article per WP:MUSIC, WP:N and this abounds in WP:BLP and WP:RS and WP:V violations. As the article notes at the beginning (presumably from an ardent fan, or other COI source), the artist and the band are considered much the same, which asserts a conflation of notability. I am going to redirect back to the (barely notable) band. Also of note: this article has been the subject of multiple sockpuppet contributions, especially R:128.40.76.3, whose contribution history is highly suspicious. Eusebeus 10:03, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I reverted back. The article certainly dos meet WP:MUSIC and WP:N and there are no violations. There is no evidence fo sockpuppetry here at all, except where my browser has signed me out. Please take this to AfD if you feel so strongly about this. R:128.40.76.3 10:21, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

  • The artist meets WP:MUSIC based upon the first criteria alone, as he has multiple non trivial published works independent of both him and the band. This is more than adequetely represented at YouTube with a simple search of Chris Conley. (BTW WP MUSIC considers all forms of publication and media. YouTube definetely falls into this category). Also the article which considered the artist and not the band was a quote from The Cavalier Daily. A respected independent newspaper which did a feature on the subject of the article. Hardly the COI source which you claim it to be! R:128.40.76.3 10:31, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Uh, no. Putting up a self-made video on You Tube does NOT count toward WP:MUSIC. Eusebeus 13:08, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Ah, he does not put them up himself. They are released and put up by his record label, fans and other people. From the perspective of some of the videos though he does appear to release some material himself. R:128.40.76.3 13:13, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] First edit!

I just made my first edit, a countervandalism by reverting this page back. There seems to be plenty of evidence on this talk page establishing Conley's notability.Punkguy182 17:08, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I was just looking back through the code and found this subpage with specific criteria to WP:MUSIC.Criteria linky subpage thingy. Punkguy182 17:11, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notability

A small, but very determined, group of editors insists on blanking this page into a redirect to Saves the Day, culminating in a WP:3RR violation by one of those editors last night. The page blanking has been justified on the basis that the article fails WP:BIO and, more specifically, WP:MUSIC. Criteria 1 of WP:MUSIC states "It has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent from the musician/ensemble itself and reliable". A Google News Archive search found 107 articles from such publications as The New York Times, Rolling Stone, The Hollywood Reporter and other newspapers and magazines across the United States and Canada, which would clearly satisfy this criterion. Criteria 5 states "Has released two or more albums on a major label or one of the more important indie labels (i.e. an independent label with a history of more than a few years and a roster of performers, many of which are notable).", which is also well-documented in the article. One could go through other criteria that are also satisfied, but there is no argument that WP:MUSIC's guidelines are met by this article. The page has been protected to bar any further abuse by User:Eusebeus, and in the mean time, we need to hear if there is any valid argument that this article does not satisfy Wikipedia:Notability criteria. As I and other editors have requested, if there is any question of notability, consensus needs to be reached here that the article is not notable. Barring that, the article should be submitted through the WP:AFD process to see if a consensus can be gathered to agree that the Conley and this article is not notable. Alansohn 18:25, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I went and saw Chris Conley recently in his solo US tour and I think he is clearly notable. I have copied the justifications I found from another editor (in a subpage to this one) below. Punkguy182 07:04, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

This page needs to go to wp:AfD ASAP. --Jack Merridew 15:46, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Criteria meeting WP:MUSIC, needs to satisfy one of the 12 criteria

following copied from Talk:Chris Conley/WP:MUSIC (history) which was created by User:R:128.40.76.3 who is now back as User:Punkguy182 --Jack Merridew 15:46, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

1. It has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent from the musician/ensemble itself and reliable.

Chris Conley has had numerous albums released by both independent and major record labels with the band Saves the Day, in which he was the primary composer. He also has over 130 different videos of him performing both Saves the Day songs and compositions as a solo artist. These are all uploaded uploaded by persons independent of the musician.

  • Conley is featured for his songwriting in Rolling Stone Magazine in regards to him being the frontman and songwriter for saves the day [1]


2. Has gone on an international concert tour, or a national concert tour in at least one sovereign country, reported in reliable sources.

Conley has toured nationally around the USA with a group and as a solo artist

[edit] Criteria for composers and lyricists

Has credit for writing or co-writing either lyrics or music for a musician or ensemble that qualifies above, a notable theatre, or has been taken up by a musician or ensemble that qualifies above.

credited writer and composer for notable band , saves the day.


Does anyone dispute these jusifications? Please leave civil and detailed comments please.


[edit] Conley promo images

I have found two non-free promotional images for Chris Conley. Can someone please deprotect the page so they can be added to the mainspace?

Cconley1.jpeg

cconley2.jpeg

Thanks Runningman01 22:35, 5 November 2007 (UTC)