User talk:Chovain
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[edit] Changes
Hi Chovain,
The change to the "false" Harassment Allegation title was made as it was a fundamental part of the defence from the beginning and it was stated in court when the case was dropped in Dec 2007 that the allegation was false. As the CPS themselves said the complainant lacked credibility and they offered no evidence upon investigation (which is why the case was dropped), and they did not in court challenge the lawyers claim that the allegaion was "entirely false". It therefore seems reasonable to disassociate an allegation which may be genuine - to one that is false, repeatedly claimed to be false and is finally proved to a high degree to be false and the is also accepted to be false by the Prosecution.
Best —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.78.150.47 (talk) 08:58, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- Please discuss 'on the article talk page, not here. -- Mark Chovain 21:20, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
i think the article should be protected. the other user seems intent on including a disproportionate amount of information on the whole harassment thing as opposed to the basic facts, which is particularly worrying when all of that info comes from one very biased, unreliable source. also the attempt to change the heading to "false" allegation is ridiculous. --82.45.250.13 (talk) 03:39, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Emotional (song)
Regarding this AfD, I have made a page on the artist Casely. Given that there is now a page for the singer, both the nominator and I have proposed to merge and redirect Emotional (song) to the singer's page. Since you participated in the AfD as well, I thought you might want to voice your opinion on such a move. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • (Broken clamshells•Otter chirps) 22:19, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Mosman
I am no longer contributing to the article because it's a waste of time. Any fact that I put in there is removed because [Removing content for possible privacy concerns]. I'm still monitoring the article and can see that any other attempts at editing are also being reverted. What are your thoughts? I think we could benefit from your unbiased comments on the subject of the Mosman article. J Bar (talk) 03:27, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- I'm going to be completely frank with you here. I mean this to be constructive criticism, but I'm too busy at the moment to mince my words, and sugar coat this :).
- To begin with, I should point out that I haven't completely followed the entire Mosman debate, so I can't comment on the specific problems and arguments presented there; I'm commenting on the general conduct of editors in that discussion. I feel that all of the editors have been behaving below par: antagonising one another, being snarky, etc.
- I've always been an absolutely huge fan of your work on Sydney suburb articles, but feel that your comments on the talk page have fallen way short of your usual standard (That's not to say that you've behaved any worse than others, but that I expect more of you than the average editor based on your excellent history).
- I know what it's like to get into a heated debate, and find myself behaving below my own standards. Perhaps rather than rescind from the discussion, you could step back from the article completely for a week or two, move onto other articles, and come back with a fresh perspective at your usual top form. It's just a suggestion, but I'd love to see you back there soon! -- Mark Chovain 04:09, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks. I appreciate your comments and your frankness. I don't disagree with what you've said. In hindsight, perhaps it would have been better to avoid getting into any argument with an editor over just one article on a Sydney suburb, when there's so much work that needs to be done on all articles. I guess I was getting frustrated that content kept being deleted from an article that has so little content anyway. I have already stayed away from any further contributions to the article for days now, (as you have also suggested) and I'll just have to do the same with the discussion page in future. I'll just give the whole thing a wide berth, in future. Cheers. J Bar (talk) 04:52, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- I'm really glad you were able to take my comments as they were intended. I'd seriously like to see you back on Mosman again in the near future though. -- Mark Chovain 05:36, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for you efforts and your time to review the situation. I don't think I'll go back to the Mosman article or discussion page because the whole things left a bad taste in my mouth. However, I'm glad to see that some good has come from this and that some other editors have been allowed to add some content to the page recently. There has also been some constructive work after other editors providing unbiased comments and supported my merge suggestions for the locality article in the same suburb Balmoral, New South Wales and the old 'Balmoral Beach' article. A positive outcome there too. Cheers. J Bar (talk) 01:35, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
- I'm really glad you were able to take my comments as they were intended. I'd seriously like to see you back on Mosman again in the near future though. -- Mark Chovain 05:36, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks. I appreciate your comments and your frankness. I don't disagree with what you've said. In hindsight, perhaps it would have been better to avoid getting into any argument with an editor over just one article on a Sydney suburb, when there's so much work that needs to be done on all articles. I guess I was getting frustrated that content kept being deleted from an article that has so little content anyway. I have already stayed away from any further contributions to the article for days now, (as you have also suggested) and I'll just have to do the same with the discussion page in future. I'll just give the whole thing a wide berth, in future. Cheers. J Bar (talk) 04:52, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Offensive allegations
This comment of yours is highly offensive and I'll kindly ask you once again to stay off my talk page. J Bar is not a "thorn in my side". J Bar and I have hardly had anything to do with each other and rarely even edit the same articles. Disagreeing over image choice on one page does not qualify someone as a "thorn in my side" or as someone I want to be rid of. If I wanted to block J Bar, I have had the opporturnity and easily could have yesterday or even for edit warring on Mosman as between his logged in and logged out edits he either violated or pushed 3RR on that article (I haven't cared enough to bother counting the actual number of reverts) and an edit warring block would easily have stuck and yet I have never blocked him. Yes, I gave him a "stern warning" but that was because I was trying to make the impression that speculating about other editor's personal information is totally unacceptable on Wikipedia and it is considered a serious and blockable offense. I have never looked through J Bar's contributions, ever. I came to this page because I was asked as an Australian administrator by someone who was concerned that the comment here containing speculation about another editor's location of residence violated policy. I was asked to review it and so I did. I really think you are overesitimating the conflict and interaction between J Bar and myself. Even if I did dislike J Bar, which I don't, what would blocking him for a day or two achieve? It's not like a block is going to "get rid of" this so-called "thorn in my side". I find your allegation that I would abuse the tools to take out someone you falsely presume I dislike highly offensive. You are completely out of line and completley and utterly muddled about everything. If you have further opinions to express please do so somewhere other than my talk page and please cease peddling false and offensive information which is easily contradicted by the evidence. You are just making yourself look incredibly foolish and ignorant. Thanks. Sarah 01:23, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
- I originally went to your talk page to suggest that you may have misinterpreted J Bar's intentions. There was no history of harassment, and a perfectly acceptable alternative interpretation of his comments. Your response to my concern was simply to insist that you knew J Bar's intentions were bad, and to go on a tirade about an ongoing dispute.
- Why is the veracity of J Bar's ownership accusations anything to do with this? My original message on your talk page was about intentions.
- If you are as impartial as you claim, then why did you raise that dispute, of which you were a party, in your response to me? Both editors in the most recent incarnation of the dispute have been acting disgracefully, but that was not the issue here. If you had blocked J Bar for edit warring, I'd be even more disgusted, as there were at least two users warring, and someone was blanket reverting J Bar's changes - sure, blanket reverting is easier, but reverting references is not good form, and it can be extremely frustrating for the user being reverted.
- I apologise for accusing you of watching contributions, but from the outside, this all looked pretty dodgy. I realise not all administrator actions can be transparent (in this case, for privacy reasons), but when they're not, they need to be explained.
- Given that you were familiar with the user in question (you certainly didn't need much prompting to describe his ownership claims as "bogus"), you should have explained that you removed the edit because you were asked to review the revision by an editor via email.
- While it shouldn't affect the outcome, it's worth questioning the user's motives. Did they contact you because you were an Australian admin, or because you were involved in an earlier dispute, and they thought they'd get a favourable outcome? If the second option seems plausible, it might be worth doing what needs to be done immediately (removing the problematic revision), but hand off to another admin to review the change, and leave a message for the user in question.
- Back to the issue of transparency: When I questioned your impartiality, another admin has come in, apparently unprompted, to back you up 100%, while not addressing a single one of my concerns. Such a "review" is pointless, as there's no record I can find of you requesting an impartial review. To the outside observer, you might as well have emailed a real-life friend, and said, "Hey, can you back me up here?" I'm not suggesting that's what's happened here, but a bit of transparency can prevent these questions from being asked. If you requested the review, a post to ANI would have been a much better approach, as other users can see how the request was made.
- As for your request that I stay off your talk page: Remember, Administrators are not some elite clique; you work for the community. If I have concerns with your work, then I'm free to raise them with you, and will continue to do so. Such a comment gives the impression that you have nothing to learn, and no need to entertain the opinions of one of the plebs. -- Mark Chovain 02:49, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
It's good to see we require such high standards of maturity of those we entrust with the mop. -- Mark Chovain 04:08, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
- Hi Chovain. That Sarah has removed your message shows she has read it. Please don't continue to badger her. Thanks for your consideration. --John (talk) 04:27, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
- I think it's the height of rudeness for someone to say "Stay off my talk page", only to continue the discussion on my talk page. She failed to demonstrate any accountability or transparency through this whole thing, and has not acknowledged a single one of my points. -- Mark Chovain 04:37, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
- I know nothing of the details of your disagreement with Sarah. However, when someone removes a message you have posted, it is best not to keep on posting, as it is only likely to lead to raised voices all round. It is better to walk away, drink a cup of tea, copyedit a few articles or something. If you need help longer term to resolve your difference with Sarah, it may be that I can help you. For now, I think it is better to walk away. Sorry for barging in by the way, but my advice is sincere. --John (talk) 04:45, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
- I don't doubt the sincerity, nor the value, of your advice. My issue here is with an admin who does everything behind closed doors, and won't accept there is a problem with that, and herself continued this discussion in the first place. -- Mark Chovain 04:50, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
- I know nothing of the details of your disagreement with Sarah. However, when someone removes a message you have posted, it is best not to keep on posting, as it is only likely to lead to raised voices all round. It is better to walk away, drink a cup of tea, copyedit a few articles or something. If you need help longer term to resolve your difference with Sarah, it may be that I can help you. For now, I think it is better to walk away. Sorry for barging in by the way, but my advice is sincere. --John (talk) 04:45, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
- I think it's the height of rudeness for someone to say "Stay off my talk page", only to continue the discussion on my talk page. She failed to demonstrate any accountability or transparency through this whole thing, and has not acknowledged a single one of my points. -- Mark Chovain 04:37, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Kylie Vandal
Hey Chovain, I reverted a comment to your userpage from 82.19.159.15. It was a copy of something you said on a Kylie talkpage with a nasty little note behind it. Just FYI.--Torchwood Who? (talk) 07:06, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
- That's the strangest bit of vandalism I've seen in a while. The quote wasn't even mine, as far as I know. -- Mark Chovain 11:38, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Sexuality and Space
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- Hey Mark, I did a big renovation on the Sexuality and Space article. Could you do me a favor and take another look at the AfD with the new additions. I tagged the thing for speedy when I first saw it, but after digging around and cleaning it I think it might be a good addition.--Torchwood Who? (talk) 23:42, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Prayaya v3
This new article may interest you as it has returned despite your previously successful nomination for its deletion. I have requested that it be speedily deleted. Elsendero (talk) 03:03, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- Cool - thanks for the heads-up, and well spotted! I've added Prayaya and Prayaya v3 to my watchlist in case they come up again. -- Mark Chovain 03:15, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Backlog at Category:Wikipedians seeking to be adopted in Adopt-a-user
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There is currently a backlog of 57 users at Category:Wikipedians seeking to be adopted in Adopt-a-user. Please consider offering adoption to one or more of these users. Don't forget to change their {{adoptme}} template to {{adoptoffer|Chovain}}. Thank you for your continued participating in Wikipedia:Adopt-a-User. xenocidic (talk) 19:37, 1 May 2008 (UTC) |
[edit] Dr. No
I looked it up on the wikipedia page right after that, and it said Dr. No was a Tong, though when I saw the movie, I'm pretty sure he said triad. Doesn't really mater--Dudeman5685 (talk) 16:13, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Signpost updated for May 19th and 26th, 2008.
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[edit] Tomboys in literature
G'day! I am the guy who is in agreement with your AfD nomination for the Tomboys in Literature article. Yes, I am the one. I just wanted to say that I appreciated your input in the AfD process and your defence of the argument that the article does not belong here. Cheers! Ecoleetage (talk) 11:47, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Already got it...
...and you were right. The style first lead me to believe it was a copyvio and when it came up zilch after Googling some of the paragraphs, I thought it was a hoax. I did a Google on "william forrester warwick farm" and bingo. I got hits and I've withdrawn my objections and apologized to the user. Thanks for lettting me know, though. --PMDrive1061 (talk) 02:46, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks again. Timing, as they say, is everything. :)) --PMDrive1061 (talk) 02:46, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks again. I don't like making mistakes, but I sure as shooting do try and correct them when I do. --PMDrive1061 (talk) 03:08, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] re changes to my article William Forrester
I approve of the "wiki-fying" of my article on my great grandfather..I'll later add an article on our 5times great grandfather who was on the 1st fleet HMS Scarbrough in 1788. I'm a school librarian & will do a good job!!!!
Susan Hill —Preceding unsigned comment added by Susan.h. hill (talk • contribs) 05:39, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] afd template?
Hello, I've voted on the AFD for Comet (song) but noticed there was no template on the article? Renee (talk) 01:33, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] NPOV
Wikipedia is NPOV. Flora Jessop's content was entirely based from her POV, the content is not just from a blog, it is from the ORIGINAL SOURCE, it is not just a random conjecture. It also balances the unbalanced POV since there is more than one POV on this person. There are many other comments to the effect that Jessop cannot be trusted that indeed should not be put in, but that statement is widely quoted across the internet Bachcell (talk) 01:51, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
- I'm going to suggest we completely rewrite the article from scratch, as I think that both the version that was there before your edits, and your changes go completely against wikipedia policy. We need to be sure all of the claims in the article are supported by independent, reliable sources. That means they need to be taken from media with independent editorial control. Your sources are neither independent, nor reliable. I'm going to stub the article out (to the bare minimum undisputed facts), and I suggest we work on rebuilding it with extensive discussions on the article's talk page. Does that seem like a reasonable plan to you? -- Mark Chovain 02:14, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
There we go. I've put a much culled version up. I don't think there's anything controversial in there from either side. Let me know what you think (probably best to take the discussion to the talk page though now, so others can be involved.) -- Mark Chovain 02:44, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Camden
G'day, I just noticed that the population figure in the infobox for Camden got changed at some time from that for the suburb (about 3000) to that for the council area (about 45,000). I was going to change it back but noticed you'd changed the infobox from a suburb to a town. If you think Camden is a town rather than a suburb, do you think the population should be the larger figure as you would with a country town with suburbs like Wagga or the smaller GNB definition of Camden the suburb? Personally, I think Camden is part of Sydney's suburban sprawl and should be considered a suburb but I accept it has a long history as a separate town so I'm open to other people's opinions on the matter. Crico (talk) 01:13, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
- I saw this message, and thought I might give my two cents. We tend to use "official" designations whenever we can. Sometimes this involves information from the GNB (in determining if things are suburbs or not), other times from the ABS (in determining if something is "part of Sydney"). In this case, Camden is described by GNB as being a County of Shoalhaven, a parish of the Camden LGA, and a suburb of the Camden LGA. We cover the Camden LGA in Camden Council, so I think regardless of whether or not Camden is part of Sydney, this article should be considered a suburb (of either Sydney or Camden LGA - not sure which) -- Mark Chovain 01:24, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
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- For the record, GNB consideres Camden (suburb) to be a suburb of Camden (town).[1] It doesn't define "Camden (town)", but the only thing I can find called "Camden" that contains "suburbs" is Camden LGA.[2]. I suspect we should be treating Camden LGA as the town. Perhaps we need three articles here: Camden, New South Wales for the suburb, Camden Council for the local council organisation, and Camden Local Government Area (or something else?) for the area covered by the town.-- Mark Chovain 01:31, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
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With the urban sprawl of our cities extending to these towns on the outskirts, it's difficult sometimes to determine whether a place is still considred a town in its own right or whether it has become an outlying suburb of the city. I'm hesitant to agree with the idea of having three articles for Camden. As you guys suggest, I always follow what appears GNB too because that's the official designation. From what I see there, it looks like we should be treating Camden, New South Wales as a suburb in the local government of Camden Council. I don't think it's a good idea to have a separate town article as well. It will just complicate things and cause more confusion. Chances are that Camden Council will eventually be declared a city, like many councils in Sydney and that might then be less confusing. Cheers. J Bar (talk) 05:50, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
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