Talk:Chosen people

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents

[edit] "Chosen People" = "Master Race"?

It's pretty much the same notion, eh? They both fall under the rather narrow category of "ethnocentric superiority complex"... The parallels should at least be mentioned. 71.247.177.135 (talk) 20:08, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I suggest that you read the section regarding that issue under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chosen_people#Ethnocentrism . Groups that hold an idea of a chosen people typically regard it as being something very, very different from the notion of a "master race". Asarelah (talk) 04:53, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Relatively Unknown Sects

Removed advertisement from minor sect. Any particular cults listed need to have risen to a sufficiently known status first to satisfy encyclopaedic Q. Lycurgus 14:19, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moved from article

'Islamic supersessionism retroactively rewrites the role of Abraham, and presents Muslims as the only people chosen to carry the true word of God.'

This really isn't NPOV, is it? Sam [Spade] 03:12, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Um, it is what Muslims believe. No religion's beliefs are NPOV! But this statement is presented in an NPOV fashion. It would be a violation of NPOV to say that "Muslims are the only people chosen to carry the true word of God." To make this statement NPOV, we must rewrite this not as a fact, but rather as a statement which makes it clear that this is what Muslims happen to believe. "Islamic supersessionism retroactively rewrites the role of Abraham, and presents Muslims as the only people chosen to carry the true word of God." RK 14:52, Jul 7, 2004 (UTC)

ok, lets try again. This sentance is extremely POV. It takes it as a given that muslims "retroactively rewrote" the story. Also this article is the only source I can find for the word "supersessionism". Did you make it up, or what? (found the wiki article on Supersessionism). Sam [Spade] 23:38, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Is the link to Americentrism NPOV? It should be changed to Ethnocentrism, as the link suggests Americentrism is stronger than other kinds of ethnocentrism.

[edit] Purposes of Being Chosen

I'm removing this section. This has nothing to do with the definition of exclusivism. It seems more like a straw man against exclusivism being smuggled in.

[edit] Big QUESTION?

Why does exclusivism link to "Chosen People". Being chosen in not a necessary inference to exclusivism. Exclusivism is simply a belief that certain ones adhering to a particular religion will be saved or blessed. (In Christianity, go to heaven)

This does not necessitate being chosen. Some would argue exclusivism based upon free will. Some one needs to change this link.

[edit] NPOV issue in Hitler/Nazism statement

I'm opening a serious can of worms here...

The Nazis considered the Aryan race to be superior, and believed it was their mission to eliminate all races they considered "inferior" in the name of secular human evolution

This statement seems to come from a creationist/anti-evolution POV. One of creationism's key arguments against evolution is that it's the "basis" of Nazism, Communism, "moral relativism," etc. As skeptic Michael Shermer has pointed out, that's like arguing that the printing press is responsible for Mein Kampf. Evolution was no doubt (mis)used to justify Hitler's ideology, but so were genetics and other sciences. Hitler's genocides weren't "in the name of" evolution, they were in the name of racism, white supremacism and Hitler's own perverted megalomania. Szyslak 00:11, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

And the only race they did try to wipe out was Jews, chosen not because of theories of evolution but because of longstanding Christian antipathy. Nothing in evolutionary theory, even of the most racist variety, would rationalise singling out Jews. You find it used in the late nineteenth century to justify the elimination of Khoisan peoples and Australian Aborigines as "inferior", but not Jews. The Nazis never had any plans to eliminate all races other than the Aryan (however you define Aryan). Paul B 11:45, 20 June 2005 (UTC)

[edit] error

"Muslims who believe that Muslims, Christians and Jews all serve the same God" ALL muslims believe that Muslims, Christians and Jews all serve the same God.. - --Cyprus2k1 22:25, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Excised section

This paragraph doesn't seem to add any new information, and parts of it are unclear in their meaning. Precisely what does it mean for a movement to be "untrue"? The assertion that movements of all types consider themselves to be "'chosen' in one way or another" is also very debatable. What of atheist movements?
However, it is important to distinguish between the self-importance of a movement and the truth of its message. Movements of all types consider themselves to be "chosen" in one way or another to change the course of history. Some movements may prove to be true, and some movements may prove to be false. The truth of their message and their confidence in their message are entirely separate questions.

[edit] Jewish "salvation"?

I have a problem with this part of the article: "This belief is primarily rooted in the understanding that gentiles can achieve salvation just as Jews." The problem is, "salvation" is a primarily Christian concept that doesn't exist in Judaism. Can someone who knows more about this topic fix this section and remove the salvation reference? --D Monack 03:33, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Salvation DOES exist in Judaism as a concept, as it says: Isaiah 43:3 "For I the L-RD am your G-d, the Holy One of Israel, YOUR SAVIOR. I gave Egypt as a ransom for you, Ethiopia and Saba in exchange for you." (JPS). Christians interpret this savior as being Jesus, while traditional Jewish thinking refeers to god as the savior. The same applies to Redeemer: Isaiah 60:16 says "...And you shall know that I the L-RD [ie, HaShem] am your Saviour, I The Mighty One of Jacob, am your Redeemer."

Salvation in the sense that a person can "achieve salvation" is NOT a Jewish concept. As I understand it, that kind of salvation is needed by Christians because of original sin, another concept not shared by Jews. The Israelites did not "achieve salvation" at the Red Sea, they were saved from the Egyptian army.

EMV Dec 2005

Some mention needs to be made that this term almost always, in American English, is slang for Jewish people. It is such a well-known slang synonym that born-again Christians and other fundamentalist Christians even routinely joke back, "No, we are the real chosen people, you guys abandoned G_D (Jesus)." This is anecdotal context and story, but the point should be clear. Oemb1905 16:09, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This second paragraph under Roman Catholicism

Jesus has never mentioned being the son of God. "I am the way, the truth, and the life, No one comes to the Father except through Me" Relation to God was established by man, we can refer to God as the creator, the father, and everything he created deserves respect. There is one simple rule everybody should practice "never do to others what you do not want them to do to you" There is no chosen people, nobody has the right to pretend so, each one of us must find his own path. Life on earth is a bridge, all we have to do is cross that bridge leaving things behind as clean as possible. Man is capable of the best and the worst, we all should focus on best and better.

I removed that. Jinniya 23:36, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Islam

The treatment of Islam throughout the Wikipedia is problematic and especially so where contested topics are under discussion.

One major source of error is the failure to distinguish between "Islam" (more an ideal way of life, based on the Qur'an and sunnah, than a system of beliefs or philosophy) from "Muslims" (whose behavior exhibits great variation, in response to multiple factors that go into the making of their passions and interests). Another, to squeeze out "Islamic" or "Muslim" answers to essentially extra-Islamic questions; questions that are often phrased in terminology that defies any valid translation in the Muslim much less Islamic context.

The statement on this page that: "Some Muslims believe Islam is Exclusive [sic. -- why capitalised?], and some do not" needs review (as does this entire entry). Even if true, this is misleading; for Islam is no more defined by what "some" (how many?) Muslims believe than Judaism, Christianity, or Budhism by what some Jews, Christians, or Budhists believe. The near unanimous consensus of Muslims would be that "Islam is not exclusive" - in the sense that anyone can be a full and equal member of the Muslim community if she so wishes. In other words, any one who by a simple proclamation renounces all gods other than the One-God and accepts Mohammad as the messenger of the One-God -- and nothing else, becomes a full and equal member of the Muslim community.

   Your full and equal member of the Muslim community has several exclusivistic conditions attached. So. you have conceded that Islam is exclusivistic. Why should one renounce one's version of God handed to him/her by generations of tradition? Why should one accept Mohammed as "the messenger"?   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.19.134.114 (talk) 07:26, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

In Islam there is no concept of Muslims as a chosen people (in fact, like Christianity, Islam holds that the people of Moses, historically, were the Chosen People); instead the Qur'an speaks of "mankind" as a chosen creation. Unlike prophets before him, Mohammad did not address his congregation as "O people of Quraysh [the tribe to which he belonged]" or "O people of Makkah [the city to which he belonged]" but as "ya ayyuha al-naas" (or O members of the human race). In my view therefore all references to Islam could be deleted from this article; it doesn't belong here. No Muslim would object to this and I do not see why anyone else would!

Digression: Wiki: "Exclusive - Excluding items or members that do not meet certain conditions". Thus, to say that Bolivians shall be excluded from being considered Brazilians, is not being exclusive; but to say that Bolivians shall not be eligible to become Brazilians is being exclusive. (So, the definition above should really be: "Exclusive - Excluding items or members that do not meet certain conditions, that they can meet.") Two further refinements are possible. First, the conditions should not be onerous (a club that requires a million dollars as membership fee would be called exclusive, just as one with a "whites only" policy. Second, the membership should be full and equal (if new members are not eligible for the same privileges as old members then -- at least until they become so eligible -- then we would call this exclusion, or if they are eligible for all privileges but only in a subsidiary position to some other members then again we would call this exclusion). If this is accepted, then the definition would be: "Exclusive - Excluding from full and equal inclusion items or members that do not meet certain conditions, that they can easily meet." Or some such thing.

If this is accepted, the rest of the entry (on Islam, and other statements about Islam in this article) needs to be deleted (or if you must, re-written). Also, once we agree on this meaning of exclusion, some of the statements about other religions may need further review.

Azlondon 10:17, 9 August 2006 (UTC)azlondon

This same issue occurs throughout Wikipedia for the term Jew. I suggest you read some of the dsicussions there as we have made changes and suggestions that seem to help. One helpful thing is to refer to the sub groups by specific name, instead of making a hasty generalization, like stating adherents of Islam, or something like that. At the same time, certain groups do contain macro-principles that all adherents believe. For example, all adherents of Islam, would probably agree that Mohammed was prophet of A__ah. Oemb1905 16:20, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] People

Why does this article talk about groups in general? Somehow, I usually encounter the concept of "chosen people" as using "people" in reference to racial or ethnic groups, not just groups of people. I think it is not fitting to address just about any group that thinks it is superior in some way, such as the Christian and Islamic groups considering themselves as chosen to carry the truth. This non-ethnic religious aspect is definitely worth mention, but I feel that it does not match the meaning of the phrase very well, and such should receive mention elsewhere. Of course, the mention of Christian-Nazi-Aryan mixes and other times where the racial aspect is tied to the religiously chosen notion should still be mentioned, since this identifies one 'people' out of the 'peoples' for some sort of divine selection.

Including all groups that feel chosen(and happen to be composed of people) makes the scope of the article wider than that of "chosen people" as it is commonly used. Thus, I suggest that the parts with an indisputable ethnic/racial tie should be included, but other types(such as a religion considering itself truthful) should be relegated to another article. So I think it just that the sections regarding Jewish, Nazi-Aryan, Christian Identity, and be kept under this name. (About LDS, I think it should also be kept since the usage is really beyond that of a general Christian group, in that it seems to imitate the original Jewish notion in many ways, such as identification of followers with tribes of Israel, and using "Gentile" to describe non-Mormons.) But the inter-religious rivalry over truth alone should not be part of this article. In my opinion, of course.

What do you all think of this proposal?

My responce to this anon user from over a year ago is this. Your proposal is highly offensive and absolutely POV (see WP:NPOV) (and at the same time incorrect). The belief in Jewish "chosenness" is religiously based, like Christianity and Islam, and not racial or ethnic as you try to group it as, like White Supremacists. In case you are unaware, anyone can be come Jewish through conversion, just like any other religion, at which point they are a full Jew in every way. You're statement is made on false beliefs, one cannot become "Aryan" if they were not born as one. Epson291 08:38, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rastafari

I think we need evidence for the statements regarding Rastafari. Rastafaris are divided along Muslim, Christian, and other groups. Some believe, in a positive way, that they are inferior to the white race and destined to serve them in a biblical sense. And they trace this to allegorical and biblical stories. Would a Rastafari expert please be consulted ASAP, since this information seems at the best incomplete, and at the worst, wrong. Oemb1905 16:04, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mormon Section

Can anyone provide a reference for the "kin blood of the Jews" statement? I've never heard the claim stated this way, and the quotes make it appear as though it is a direct quote from something doctrinal. I've inserted a citation request. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paulistano (talk • contribs) 01:45, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The CHOSEN PEOPLE ---- SELF-imposed standards (according to article intro)

How can religious standards be self-imposed when God allegedly "chose" the people? (If God chose them, HE imposed whatever religious standards, and if only by choosing)

It is logically impossible, and clearly serves only to embellish a concept akin to that of being a master race. Somebody please edit the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.181.154.104 (talk) 18:59, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Article Intro: "Jews and, by extension, Christians consider themselves to be the "chosen people""

Christians consider themselves "chosen" as well? This is new to me. Citation/quote/source anyone? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.181.155.52 (talk) 18:40, 11 June 2008 (UTC)