Talk:Chivalric order

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Contents

[edit] Miscellaneous

Can someone post information about the Monarchial Order of the Holy Spirit in France?

The link to the Order of St. George goes to a Russian decoration, not the Hungarian chivalric order that this page describes. --68.41.122.213 16:21, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

I'd question the inclusion of the Kappa Alpha Order on this page. Not only does it seem irrelevent the page it links to is hardly wiki worthy, with neutrality issues and tons of pointless information.--68.231.168.20 12:05, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New article

I just posted this article: Sacred Military Constantinian Order of Saint George. It's a new article and I'm hoping for experts to expand it. Where does it fit in this article? --Ashley Rovira 13:18, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright problem

Considerable parts of this article were lifted without attribution from Franc,ois Velde's Heraldica website, linked at the bottom. J S Ayer 00:44, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Consistency of Classification

I don't see why orders created by the Duke of Burgundy (Golden Fleece) and the Count of Savoy (Annunziata) are considered monarchial, orders created by the Duke of Bavaria (St. Anthony) and the Margrave of Brandenburg (Swan) and several others are considered princely, and an order created by the Duke of Bar (St. Hubert) is considered baronial. Any takers? J S Ayer 01:02, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I suppose the criterion is that the Duke of Burgundy wound up King of Spain and the Count of Savoy wound up King of Italy, while the King of Bavaria and the King of Prussia wound up having their own armies and ambassadors while still owing some homage to an emperor, and the Duke of Bar always remained a subject. J S Ayer 14:46, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

Please add sources for the given creation of all orders. See WP:TORIGRS. The article would also benefit of a mention of the evolution or relation of orders vs soldities JennyLen 10:04, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Order of Ormus

Order of Orsmus does not exist, its only hoax or joke. Author of article give link to one article about Vatican secret archives, where is nothing about this "order" and as reference book cited Boulton´s Knights of crown, where is nothing. Of course nothing about this order is in Burke Word orders, van Duren Orders or any other book. Yopie 12:05, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] on pseudo-chivalric orders

I added a new brief section on pseudo-chivalric orders. It was not meant to be comprehensive, only to introduce the idea into the current article. It is expected that a very comprehensive new article (titled Pseudo-chivalric orders) will cover the topic in substantial detail. Please feel free to expand, modify, move under a different heading, or otherwise change what I have added to the article at this point. I feel that I expressed an overly sympathetic view towards the myriad fake and pseudo-chivalric "orders" that are out on the Web today, but I also tried to maintain something of a NPOV on the topic. Would adding (listing) some of the current pseudo-chivalric orders of the day to the present article be too controversial? I suppose that listing some old pseudo-chivalric orders can be safely done without bringing a vicious edit war down on this article. At the very least, those organizations calling themselves chivalric orders should be described as they are -- generally without an internationally recognized fons honorum at the least. I look forward to the separate new article that should cover this topic in more detail. -L.Smithfield (talk) 19:09, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Good work! I tried before six months article "Pseudo- order", but now is deleted, because I added listings of pseudo-orders and every member of this "orders" furiously deleted this article. I can help you with this vandals. Yopie 11:48, 30 May 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yopie (talk • contribs)
I did not know that you had written the article Pseudo-chivalric orders previously, and that it got deleted! But I am not surprised. I know that many of these so-called chivalric orders will get very animated when they are listed out in the open for what they really are. I think that an article like Pseudo-chivalric orders is both needed and useful to the public. I think that the article should list both the older and now extinct pseudo-orders as well as the various current ones that are known, and at least the current ones that have some sort of presence on the web. These latter ones are probably most visible to the public due to their web presence. I don't really know the situation with all of these pseudo-orders, but I am willing to help out with an article on it as best as I can (I'm time-limited also). Also, I am not an expert on the topic. Thanks for your previous efforts in this area. -L.Smithfield (talk) 13:18, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] how to categorize these types of "orders"?

Although this is more a discussion for the new article (yet to be written as of this time) Pseudo-chivalric orders I will put his here for consideration. I just came across an "order" of knighthood that I had not seen before. The "order" is:

Although I did not see that this "order" claims to be chivalric (but I didn't spend the time to read through the whole of the web site since it is fairly extensive) it clearly is not a normally recognized order of knighthood as the idea is generally understood. After examining this "order" briefly and seeing that it is largely or principally sponsored by a one Prinz Karl Friedrich von Deutschland it appears to be a part of a network of related websites that were probably first identified on the talk page of the Wiki-article Almanach de Gotha. I just realized that this Prinz Karl Friedrich von Deutschland has a host of realted web sites dealing with royalty, nobility, knighthood, and heraldry. Some of these web sites are (and there may be more yet):

Some of these were listed over on the Almanach de Gotha talk page but I didn't see that they were all connected until now. This guy (Prinz Karl Friedrich von Deutschland) has been very busy! His various web sites are fairly extensive and are likely to be quite confusing to various visitors who may not (probably do not) know who this Prinz Karl Friedrich von Deutschland is. So the question is how should these types of "orders" he handled? In what sort of article might they be listed? Should these sorts of "orders" be listed at all? They are not normal internationally recognized orders but neither may they claim to be chivalric. -L.Smithfield (talk) 19:13, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you, one can see here His Imperial and Royal Highness Prinz Karl Friedrich von Deutschland? or | Charles VIII of Germany and Fake German Prince's chivalry site. It is hoax. Yopie 23:02, 2 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yopie (talk • contribs)
In my haste, I neglected to list above two web sites of HI&RH Prinz Karl Friedrich von Deutschland (from the Almanach de Gotha talk page). The two web sites are:
The first of these partly pertains to my question above (Should pseudo-orders not claiming chivalric character be listed in an article someplace?). This site (Almanach de Chivalry) pretends to list orders of chivalry of which it lists its own The Imperial Order of The Teutonic Knights of St. Mary's Hospital in Jerusalem as being one (an order of chivalry). So, as far as this particular "order" is concerned, it is indeed a pseudo-chivalric order. But there are still many "orders" out there that are fake but do not claim to be chivalric. Should there be a separate article on those? Or just group them together into a single article anyway (and differentiate them as necessary there)? -L.Smithfield (talk) 03:02, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Inconsistency between "late medieval monarchical orders", "post-medieval monarchical orders" and "modern current orders"

To me it is quite vague why the Danish Order of the Elephant (founded in 1693) is classified as a modern current order, and on the other hand the Order of the Thistle (founded 1687) and the Order of Saint Joseph (founded 1807) as post-medieval monarchical orders, although the Danish order is also quite old. When does the post-medieval period begin and does it stop, and does the modern period begin? Furthermore, also a lot of European monarchical chivalric orders are missing, like the important Danish Order of the Dannebrog (founded 1671) or the exclusive Dutch Order of William (founded 1815). Demophon (talk) 09:44, 5 June 2008 (UTC)