Talk:Chinese noodles

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[edit] Kwei tiao spelling

Isn't 粿 an alternate first character for kwei tiao? Badagnani 11:19, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Guo fen (粿粉)

I just bought a package of this; dried square rice noodle strips that coil up when boiled. Is this simply another name for guotiao or is this a separate kind of noodle? Badagnani 22:30, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I pretty sure it's the same stuff. Semi-translucent? 20:42, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More varieties

For those who are familiar with this topic, please add the information about the following varieties to the list:

- Alanmak 04:52, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 一家面

Does anyone know of this dish? I saw it on a menu in Ohio, USA. It's labeled "yat gat mein." Badagnani 23:00, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

It means "one house/family noodle", but a homonym is used for the "noodle" character. I don't know what kind of dish it is, though. Citrus538 21:02, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Dragon House Chinese restaurant in Staten Island has Yat Gat Mein listed under thier soups. Their number is 718-556-0888. --Scottandrewhutchins (talk) 04:40, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Wow, you're really reading old postings assiduously. Did we not add this dish yet? Perhaps it also belongs at Noodle soup. Badagnani (talk) 05:06, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Guotiao/Shahefen

Guotiao and Shahefen are listed in the article as separate types of noodles, but I think they're the same thing. Badagnani 02:14, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 台山奇面

I just got a package of 台山奇面 (Taishan noodles).[1] They're made from wheat flour and are slightly under 1 cm in width, slightly wider than fettuccine noodles. What category should these go under? Are they a traditional noodle in Taishan? Badagnani 06:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More varieties

More varieties of noodles to be evaluated for inclusion here, including 雪白掛麵 (Hang's noodles) and 爽滑奶油麵 (cream noodles). Badagnani 05:32, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Too many dialects?

On what basis is Hokkien pronunciation there? Cantonese, I can understand, given that it's most widely spoken outside China. But "Hokkien" is what, only the 4th largest Chinese dialect/language by population? Its only cluttering up the table. --Sumple (Talk) 03:36, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

If it's being construed as just a different name for Min Nan though there are at least 3-4 major varieties of Min, I think it's legitimate and good to have it, as it is a very widespread group of languages and has vibrant noodle traditions that have spread far and wide (primarily through most of Southeast Asia). Badagnani 03:51, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree that Hokkien should be kept (although I have no opinion on what you want to call it), but Badagnani, why are you deleting the tones for Cantonese? Jpatokal 05:02, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I reverted your edit again because I don't understand why, after my earlier comment, you again changed the simplified characters to traditional (not just "mian") instead of giving both. Tones for Cantonese are good to have, however. Badagnani 07:33, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Then please put them back in. Jpatokal 17:47, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I am quite curious on the basis of the comment that Cantonese is justified for inclusion as the "most widely spoken" dialect outside China. Are there any facts to justify this comment?--Huaiwei 07:18, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Ethnologue lists the various Min Nan dialects as more widely spoken outside China than Cantonese. Link Badagnani 07:30, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Probably my limited experience. In Australia, the "old" standard Chinese dialect was Cantonese, and most Chinese people one encounters still speak Cantonese. Mandarin is becoming more standard, though, with the number of newer immigrants from non-Cantonese regions.
Come to think of it, I don't know any local ( = second generation) Chinese person who speaks any of the Min dialects rather than Cantonese.
Wait, is that guy including Taiwan as "outside China"? Coz that would really tip the balance and (even disregarding politics) also be completely stupid. --Sumple (Talk) 11:01, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Look carefully through the Ethnologue links before commenting, please. Even without including Taiwan, the Min dialects (if you put Hokkien and Chaozhou together) the population figures are more than are listed for overseas Cantonese. Of course, more sources would be good to confirm this. Badagnani 18:02, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I didn't do the maths. But it seems to me the "Also spoken in..." lists only South-East Asian countries. "Widely" isn't just about population, its also about geography.
This ethnologue thing doesn't seem to count Chinese speakers in, say, the US.
I know there are more Fujian people in Indonesia/Malaysia etc. But without including figures for non-south-east-Asian countries it's hardly representative. --Sumple (Talk) 00:19, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I wonder where to look for figures on North America. We have a few Chaozhou and some Hakka here but not too many; many Cantonese and Taishanese/Hong Kongese (especially in Canada). But more and more Fujian people are coming, straight from Fujian, China, both legal and illegal. The balance is tilting in a serious way away from Cantonese and toward those with Min Nan and Mandarin as their first language. Figures could probably be obtained from some Chinese American organization? But the figures wouldn't reflect the illegal immigrants, I suppose. Badagnani 00:22, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Do census figures in the US list individual Chinese languages? Here in Australia it does (and from memory Cantonese is first, then Mandarin... although there's a statistical bias here because the minor dialects aren't listed as options on the form and you have to fill it in. --Sumple (Talk) 00:34, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm fairly sure they do not, but anything can be checked online. Badagnani 00:52, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Nope, the US does not list individual Chinese languages, its just listed as Chinese language. Hokkien or Minnan is very widely spoken in China and other parts of the world. Therefore, Hokkien should be listed in the list. I suggest changing the name "Hokkien" to "Min Nan" since Min Nan is a very big dialect, Hokkien is too specific imo. Terence Ong 11:04, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
The only thing is the names for the noodles could probably vary between the Min Nan dialects. Chaozhou, for example, has a different language than Fuzhou or Quanzhou. Badagnani 17:37, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I thought Hokkien = Fujian and therefore covers all the Min dialects, not just Minnan. But even if it only refers to Minnan, it cannot be less general than Minnan, given that Minnan is only spoken in one part of Fujian.
Anyway, I still don't think Minnan is "large" or "widely spoken" enough. Min, which covers a number of dialects of which Minnan is only one, is only the fourth largest language/dialect group in China by population. By geographical area it is even smaller - Minnan is restricted to some one half of one province, whereas, say, Mandarin is spoken across half the country, and Wu and Cantonese both cover at least two provinces. --Sumple (Talk) 21:38, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I think Min Nan is a heading that includes many dialects, some of them not very similar to one another. The figures from Ethnologue show that this linguistic group, although maybe only the fourth in China, is extremely prominent in other nations, particularly those of Southeast Asia, many of which have very important noodle traditions that are largely thus of Fujian origin. Don't downplay the importance of Min speakers in the diffusion and maintenance of Chinese noodle culture. Badagnani 23:42, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Sure, okay. It is Min which is fourth in China. Min nan is one of the dialects under "Min", and, as I said, covers half a province.
Not only, because for example the Chaozhou are very prominent Chinese group in Thailand (maybe the most prominent) and some other Southeast Asian nations. And the Taiwanese language, which is widely spoken in Taiwan, is a Min Nan language as well, if I remember correctly. That's either a "province" or a "nation" depending on your political views. Badagnani 00:33, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
You're right. I forgot about Taiwan. --Sumple (Talk) 00:37, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Currently the list concentrates on far-south noodle types. What will you do when the eastern/northern noodle types get added? There will be massive blanks under the "Hokkien" column. --Sumple (Talk) 00:23, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
That's true--just like in any chart, if it's not applicable, it's left blank. It can state in the main box that it's a northern noodle. The thing is, nowadays in China one can often get northern noodles in the south and southern noodles up north, and the terms are known, just like in the U.S. one can eat Tex-Mex food in the Northeast and clam chowder in the Southwest. So the southern pronunciations of some famous northern noodle dishes might just be relevant too. Badagnani 00:32, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Wu was mentioned too; Shanghai does have a number of famous noodle types, so Wu might be justified being added to the table as well. We might be able to reduce the typeface to accommodate this. Badagnani 00:34, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
See Overseas Chinese for a general idea of the number of ethnic Chinese around the world. Even if one were to assume all Chinese in North America speak Cantonese, they collectively account for less than 10% of ethnic Chinese in Asia minus Greater China.--Huaiwei 05:57, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Don't forget the millions of ethnic Chinese living in other nations in Asia (especially Southeast Asia). It's not just a question of numbers, but also how widespread the languages are, and how involved in Chinese noodle culture. The Cantonese are one very noodle-oriented people. Badagnani 06:09, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
This is because noodle is a widespread staple across ASEAN countries, and in addition to Hokkien language spoken by the ethnic Chinese, in local languages like Malay, Bahasa Indoensia, Thai, and Tagalog the local words for noodle are all derived from the Hokkien pronunciation "Mee". So for instance shrimp noodle, which is a renowned dish in Singapore and Malaysia, it is pronounced in Malay as Ha Mee rather than shrimp noodle, Xia Mian, or Ha Min. Given that 500 million people use the Hokkien derived nomenclature of noodle, doesn't it already constitute sufficient grounds for inclusion? --JNZ 06:58, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree with JNZ. Badagnani 17:20, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Standardising traditional character?

The article currently uses 麪/麵 interchangeably. I suggest that, for consistency, one of them is chosen over the other, unless there is some special reason that would mandate the use of the other character. I prefer "麵", because it is the standard traditional charcter used in mainland China, and is the official character used in Taiwan and Hong Kong. --Sumple (Talk) 06:45, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

We do put both in other articles; do you propose using only traditional for "mian" simply because of lack of space in the template? If so, then wouldn't all the noodle dishes use traditional characters only? That causes confusion for a majority of Chinese readers, who use only simplified, hence the value of presenting both. Just my 2 cents. Badagnani 06:48, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

No, no. I was referring to the two characters (麪/麵), both identified as "traditional" in the lead. In the table ("List"), some entries use one character and other entires use another. I suggest that only one version of "traditional" should be used in the table (preferrably 麵 per reason above). --Sumple (Talk) 09:52, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

OK, it's over my head, because I couldn't quite understand why there are not just 2 versions of the same word/character, but four! I guess I still don't understand. Badagnani 09:53, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

My dictionaries say 麺 is the standard (traditional) form, 面 is the simplified form, and 麪 is a variant form. --Sumple (Talk) 09:56, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, if we could just add after each character ("trad."), ("simp."), and ("variant") or something like that it would help people to know that. Badagnani 10:22, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I've added an explanation (correct I hope). Also, strangely, Microsoft Pinyin says its inputting 麺 but sometimes it comes out as 麵... --Sumple (Talk) 10:39, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Varieties by ingredient vs varieties by topping/cooking method?

I think the list currently separates noodle types by ingredient/manufacturing method (with a question mark over Laksa vs rice noodles?). Looking at the zh.wiki article, that seems to focus on varieties by topping/cooking method - i.e. the varieties of dishes that can be made from noodles. Perhaps some information/reorganisation in that regard? --Sumple (Talk) 06:48, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I prefer the organization by noodle types. Some are made from wheat, some from buckwheat, some from rice; some are very thin, thin, medium, wide, very wide, etc. One noodle type may have multiple noodle dishes (many of which have their own Wikipedia articles); for example, one variety of dry noodle may be boiled then added to a hot pot, or boiled then stir fried, or boiled then added to broth to make "soup noodles," etc. Badagnani 06:51, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I looked at the .zh article. It has good historical information that our article lacks, as well as the names of some other noodle types (both dishes as well as varieties of noodles themselves), more northern ones than we mention. We could supplement our article with some translations of this information (if it's all correct, of course). Badagnani 06:57, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps a list by ingredients, and then a list of famous dishes? Some dishes are quite famous and notable, probably more so (if a comparison across concepts is possible) than some of the more obscure noodle types. --Sumple (Talk) 09:53, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please don't eliminate 面

Please don't eliminate the simplified character for "noodles." http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chinese_noodles&curid=501757&diff=154323264&oldid=154185207 It really is used by most Chinese speakers in the world. Badagnani 05:16, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

First off I think there is a possible mistake. On wiktionary page on the noodle character shouldn't the Chinese be 麵 all the way through? As that is the Han and Hanzi character. Isn't that page currently incorrectly listing the Japanese character 麺 at the moment as the Chinese? Benjwong 05:20, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Is anyone noticing a computer bug where if you copy the Chinese mein 麵 character you get the Japanese 麺 on paste. The only one I know for certain that is appropriate and right for this page is 麵. I am not sure how the variants fit in as I have little trust in computers on this one character at the moment. Benjwong 05:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I got on another computer and it did show 麵 all the way through to the bottom. Benjwong 21:39, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it was stupid for the PRC to substitute 面 ("face") for "noodle" but it is used widely and we shouldn't delete it. Badagnani 21:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I am still trying to figure out why different computers are showing up differently with the same character? Both on wikipedia and wiktionary, IE and firefox. You can just create a new column and do the simplified characters all the way down if you want. Benjwong 22:07, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of Shanghai noodle

Please, do not remove text without discussing first, as in this edit. This is a major noodle that can be found in every Asian grocery, at least in my experience in North America. This is really not a good mode of editing! Badagnani 21:06, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I see now that the info was moved to thick noodle (as the Lamian article mentions Lanzhou lamian and Shandong lamian). I guess that makes sense. Badagnani 22:15, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

If you can really go the distance to show Shanghai thick noodle is not the same as thick noodle, that would be super. I have asked and supposedly it is just a variety within. Benjwong 22:18, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you that it's simply one well known variety of cumian (thick noodle). What I'm not sure about, though, is whether the term "thick noodle" is used or known in English. Badagnani 22:25, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

If you go to old link of cart noodle before I made any edits on this article. Scroll way to the bottom. Someone else is also using that same term. I am pretty sure is not just me that believe "thick noodle" is at least appropriate to some degree. Benjwong 05:35, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Laksa

I believe laksa is simply a dish using rice vermicelli (bee hoon), and thus doesn't merit a space in the grid. Badagnani 22:09, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Laksa was there long ago before I made my first edit. Benjwong 22:13, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I know, just now in going through it I noticed that the noodle this dish uses seems to be the same as rice vermicelli. What do you think? Badagnani 22:14, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I have limited to little knowledge of laksa. I happened to be cleaning up. Benjwong 22:19, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I have little knowledge of it either, but from the Laksa article it seems that it's a dish made with rice vermicelli (there are so many dishes around Asia made with them), and thus should go into the "dishes" section below the grid. I also don't think the name "Laksa" comes originally from the Chinese language, though it has Chinese characters. Badagnani 22:27, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

So here in Singapore, "laksa noodle" refers to a specific type of noodle best described as "rice spaghetti" and distinct from rice vermicelli (mifun/beehoon), or any other named type. (References: [2], [3]). I don't know of a Chinese name for these though, and I've never seen them outside "the laksa zone", so calling them "Chinese" noodles may be stretch. Jpatokal 02:48, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm confused, because on another page you just said the term doesn't refer to the noodles themselves, but to the dish made from them. Here you say that the term refers to the noodles themselves. From your description (medium-thick round rice noodles) they sound similar to Guilin rice noodles. Badagnani 03:22, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

It is confusing. Recap: the name "laksa" is the dish, which can made with many types of noodles. One of those noodle types is recursively called "laksa noodles" in Singapore, and yes, based on a quick Google Image search Guilin mifen [4] do look very similar to laksa noodles [5]. Jpatokal 05:24, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Are you suggesting this should be two articles? Laksa the dish, and a possible Laksa noodle?? Benjwong 05:29, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
"Rice noodles with spaghetti thickness" should either get a section under mifen or its own article, but "laksa noodle" is probably not the right name for it. Jpatokal 15:43, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I want to say mifen with spaghetti thickness is probably not mifen, but something else. Benjwong 23:44, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd agree with this. The thick mifen ("rice spaghetti") is used for laksa and Guilin rice noodles (I think they're also called "rice sticks"). Mifen/rice vermicelli are often labeled in the West as "rice sticks" but I think the term "rice sticks" more properly refers to this thicker variety. Badagnani 23:47, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] War mein

Do we need an article on war mein (窩麵)? Badagnani (talk) 02:53, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 意麵

Should we add 意麵? Badagnani (talk) 03:20, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Is that just a variant spelling of 伊麵, or something entirely different? Jpatokal (talk) 07:29, 2 March 2008 (UTC)