Talk:Chinese grammar

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[edit] Is this article in need of clean up? August 31, 2007

I apologize for being negative, but in my humble opinion, this article could use a lot of work. Having said that, I don't want to discount the hard work that has been made and all the great effort that has been put in by all the contributors of this article thus far. There is certainly some very good content in this article and all the individuals who have contributed to this article deserve thanks. But I think this article can be a lot better. I wish I could do something to improve this article, but I do not have sufficient expertise; I am only an elementary to pre-intermediate learner of Chinese. Perhaps this article could use some good clean up. Also, I wonder a bit about the quality and accuracy of some parts of this article. For example, I noticed one blatantly false statement, which said, "'Monkey' (and certain other animals) and 'pencil' are both '隻/只 zhi' nouns." In other words, the statement said that the words for monkey and pencil both take the same measure word. This is blatantly false. The measure words for monkey and pencil merely have the same pronunciation. They are not the same word. I have since deleted that sentence, but I am a bit concerned by it because it is a mistake that only a very novice learner of Chinese would make. Can we solicit the help of some experts for feedback on the article as a whole? I think this article has the potential to be great, but I think a lot of work will be needed. 61.229.104.25 15:01, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 2 January 2006

I have a problem with the Mood section. 呢 does not mean or imply "pending", but rather is an interjection similar to the Japanese yo — in the example sentence provided, the idea of "pending" is provided by 還 rather than 呢, which would more likely indicate that the speaker is providing information. It is possible, for example, to say "發生什麽事？" (what happened) - "他撞倒了燈柱呢！" (he knocked over the lamppost!), where 呢 could not possibly mean pending, but rather providing the new information that he had knocked over the lamppost, and even with an overtone of surprise, shock, disbelief, or more generally exclamation. That bit needs editing, IMO. --Denihilonihil 14:36, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I am preparing to edit this soon... Colipon 04:58, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)

May I suggest that those slashes just before the simplified versions don't look very good -- well, at least on my browser, the slash comes out too close to the initial simplified character (I don't know if it is a problem with my browser). I might suggest including also pinyin after each sample sentence, probably done most easily if someone knows a webpage to produce it automatically :)

I added a little information but failed to find the secret of how to input Chinese characters correctly. P0M 06:26, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)

P0M: I erased my last remark. Now that I can see the Chinese I see how Taoster modified the text. Wouldn't it make sense to have the traditional as well as simplified "ma"? Kou3+ma2 is definitely wrong, and I had replaced it with the correct traditional form at one point, but that disappeared too,

FYI, the Traditional and the Simplified characters are nearly identical aside from the 馬 simplification on the latter. Notwithstanding, 嘛 is used exclusively in colloquialism. It is not used as an interrogative particle in Mandarin, however, it can be used as a substitute for shenme. -Taoster

I don't know if it improves the readability, but I put characters on top of the pinyin. I think doing this is useful, but would like some feedback before attempting more.

All Chinese dialects share a similar grammar system

I am afraid this is not the case.. For instance, Cantonese and Mandarin grammar differs significantly from each other. — Instantno od 22:21, Jan 28 2005 (UTC)

Well, they're quite similar, in the same way you see similar grammars among the (say) Germanic languages. -- ran (talk) 02:28, Jan 29, 2005 (UTC)

All Chinese dialects share a similar grammar system, different from those employed by other language families.

Your comments come with two problems. The sentence in the article imples Chinese languages is an exception. Are Germanic languages another exception? How much should we accept for similar? Are German and English grammars similar tho there are some differences? — Instantno od 09:26, Jan 29 2005 (UTC)

The comment is simply there to explain that since all Chinese dialects share a similar system, most of the things explained in the article (aspect particles, topic-comment, mood particles, measure words etc.) apply in principle to all Chinese dialets. -- ran (talk) 15:07, Jan 29, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Similarities and differences among grammar systems of the dialects

But in my opinion I think it is necessary to write something about the differences in grammar among different languages. — Instantno od 17:19, Jan 29 2005 (UTC)

Sure, go ahead. -- ran (talk) 17:51, Jan 29, 2005 (UTC)

All Chinese dialects share a similar grammar system

Should it be changed to all Chinese spoken varieties? — Instantno od 09:27, Jan 29 2005 (UTC)

Sure. -- ran (talk) 15:07, Jan 29, 2005 (UTC)

I am not exactly sure what Instantnood is trying to say. As with a very large number of other phenomena, languages are related together on a tree structure. Languages are different from lots of other things like the genetic connections among all human being in that it is at least not clear that Chinese and the Indo-European languages did not spring from totally different origins. I.e., some people say that there is no proof that humans didn't invent language more than once. Researchers are currently trying to puzzle out whether there is some innate structure in the human brain that ensures that all languages will follow some basic rules (even though they may play with those rules in such different ways that it is hard to see how they could be the same at some root level). What is pretty clear is that languages like German and English are twigs on a common branch -- even though they do some things in ways that are irritatingly different for speakers of one language who must learn the other language. Similarly, all of the spoken languages of Chinese share many commonalities even though they do some things differently. I'm told, for instance, that in Cantontese one says "I give money you," rather than "I give you money." Little differences like that are nothing compared to the fact that no Chinese language has tense as that concept is understood in English, German, Latin, French and the other Indo-Europeans languages. Instead, they use aspect. To find parallels to aspect that are even remotely helpful, people look to Russian, a language that is viewed by most English speakers as much "different" from English than is German. But all of the Chinese languages have that way of marking -- not time-- but answers to questions like, "Did you do it (as you were expected to)?" "Have you done it (within some time period, implied or explicit)." Zhao Yuan-ren has written a great deal about aspect as used in various Chinese languages/dialects (whatever you prefer to call them).

To me it would make sense to say something about the ways in which all forms of spoken Chinese are similar, e.g., that they all use two basic sentence formats: Topic-Comment and Subject-Predicate, that Subject-Predicate sentences position their verb after the subject and before objects, predicate nominatives, etc., and so forth.

Then it would be interesting to catalog some of the main differences. Knowing Mandarin fairly well and having only a smattering of Taiwanese I couldn't do more than mention the hearsay evidence I have on "subject + verb + indirect object + object" vs. "subject + verb + object + indirect object" mentioned above. Offhand, I can't think of any way in which Taiwanese sentence structures depart radically from Mandarin sentence structures. But listing whatever differences are to be found (and about what percent of the Chinese population uses the less common form) would give the general reader some idea of both the degree of similarity and the degree of dissimilarity among the tongues of various places and groups in China.

Some commonalities among all Chinese languages trace all of the way back to wen yan wen, e.g., the use of zhi1 (e.g., "Wu2 zhi1 you3 Kung3 Ming2 ru2 yu2 zhi1 you3 shui3.") in wen yan wen and the use of "de" in Mandarin, "eh" (not sure how to romanize it) in Taiwanese, etc. That grammatical item makes a good context with English in which the "stacking order" of modifiers goes the other way, and it would be easy to demonstrate graphically why speakers of one language may have difficulties adapting to the rules of the other language. P0M

[edit] Translation errors/issues

"Swim[ming] I am the best." This translation to a sample grammatical sentence is imprecise. It should be something like "Swimming, it is my forte."

Surely "swimming is my forte" would be “游泳是我的拿手”. “游泳我是最拿手” is literally "Swimming: I'm the most proficient". — Chameleon 14:11, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The original sentence uses "swimming" as a topic or focal point. The speaker is looking at a range of activities that s/her participates in, selects swimming from among them, and then pays himself/herself a compliment, indicating that (among his/her companions, schoolmates, or whatever group the social context of the sentence indictes) the speaker has an advantage. That's different from saying that it's his/her forte. "Forte" refers to the strongest capability of all the capabilities of the individual being characterized. A situation in which an individual is explaining his/her capabilities relative to his/her "in group" is a little uncomfortable in English. I think it's possible to toss off the Chinese (Youyong, wo zui nashou!) in a light way in Chinese, suggesting by yu3 diao4 and tone of voice that it's no big deal even if I have the best capability. I think in English the adept speaker of English might somewhat self-deprecatingly say, "As for swimming, I guess I'm the pick of the litter." (Comparing himself/herself to a puppy.) If you say "I am the best," you put yourself into competition with Olympic champions.

What is the image behind the expression "na shou"? "I've got a handle on that"?P0M 21:02, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Since 拿 ná basically means "to grasp", I'd say it is easy to see 拿手 náshǒu as referring to someone with "a good grasp" of a discipline or being "an old hand" at it. — Chameleon 21:38, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I would like to modified how the translation should be presented. For example in the first sentance instead of

院(yuàn)子(zi)里(lǐ) 停(tíng) 着(zhe) 一(yí) 辆(liàng) 车(chē)。 [院子裏停著一輛車。]
In the courtyard is parked a car. (A car is parked in the courtyard.),

I think we should have it:

院(yuàn)子(zi)里(lǐ) 停(tíng) 着(zhe) 一(yí) 辆(liàng) 车(chē)。 (院子裏停著一輛車。)
[courtyard] [n. suf.] [inside] [park] [v. attah.] [one] [unit measure] [car], fully translated: A car is parked in the courtyard.

Doing it this way shows the distinctive sentance structure of mandarin Chinese comparing with romantic languages.

Also, a lot of sentances sound funny in chinese as well. Take the previous posting on 游泳我是最拿手 for example. The sentance is more rounded and complete if it is said 我最拿手是游泳, couple with the full translation: "Swimming is my forte." and the translation by characters I mentioned. The sentance contrast will be so much better. If no one objects, I would like to go ahead and change all the sentances translations. --Ndhuang (talk) 11:22, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Markup used

I was mistaken in my question, silly me. That's not what I was looking at! Laundrypowder 02:21, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Modal particle

Citation: Another category of devices unique to Chinese are the modal particles, used to express mood, or an expression of how a statement relates to reality and/or intent.

This statement is not correct. German language uses modal particles frequently as well, so Chinese language is not unique in this aspect. See German modal particle for more information. --Abdull 20:04, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't know exactly how to make the characterization more apt, but as someone who knows a little of both languages I don't think the comparison is apt. German "modal particles" are more like the final "la," "ya," etc., i.e., particles that indicates something about the speaker's subjective reaction, whereas "le" at the end of a sentence typically indicates a change of status that would need to be indicated, somehow, in a good translation. P0M 22:51, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Traditional and Simplified

This article lists both types of characters (in almost all cases), but the order is not very consistent. I'd suggest putting everything in simplified and traditional characters in brackets behind. Simplified is most used in China itself (at least as far as I have been able to see， so unless someone has a good reason to do it the other way around, let's make that default here.

[edit] Article Title

I feel a much more precise title for this article is Chinese Syntax, not grammar. A redirect from this article there would be in order, too. I'm Linguist, though, so the titles may a bit pedantic.

Clay 16:19, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bad example

In the mood section, the example for 2 meanings of 了(le) isn't appropriate, because the 2 alternative explanations for the phrase "妈妈来了!/Māma lái le!" aren't correct. The phrase "妈妈来了!/Māma lái le!" only mean that "Mother has come", and is definitly different from "妈妈要来了!/Māma yào lái le!", which only means "Mother will come". As no definition of "perfective le" or "inceptive le" is given, it wouldn't be possible to understand any difference between the two. As much as I know, 了(le) does either indicate the end in a phrase or slightly modify the tone of the phrase. In either way, it is not possible, in most cases, for 了(le) to alter the meaning of the phrase significantly. su88 06:04, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Another bad example, and this time in the Topic prominence section. The last sentence there, ie. the one glossed as meaning "I'm the best at swimming" does not exemplify the topic-prominence principle. As the word "swimming" comes first, it's clear that this is not meant to be given information that is commented in the sentence but instead, it is an example of focusing a part of the sentence in order to, for instance, to contrast it to other implied options, which in this case would be other hobbies or sports the speaker does. I am no expert of Chinese languages (but I am a student of linguistics and am familiar with the cross-linguistic notions of topic prominence and focus fronting) so I've left the text as it is, but I hope someone would look at it. -Oghmoir 19:37, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Coverb

According to an editor, there were incorrections in this section, so I'm hiding it until someone else can fix it. FilipeS 01:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Accusative/dative

Are these words (referring, as far as I know, to grammatical cases) really appropriate for Mandarin? All varieties of Chinese are almost completely isolating languages. Are these terms used in reputable Chinese grammars? Strad 03:05, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Subject-Predicate pair used as a predicate

I dimly recall I've read something about being able to use subject-predicate pair as a predicate for a sentence to describe property of a component of an entity. Something like 'I eyes-are-blue'. Can someone elaborate on that? Sorry, if this is only a misunderstanding from my part.

[edit] Thanks

Just wanted to show my appreciation to those who worked on this article. The information there is very informative and helpful. You certainly manage to explain the subtleties of word order and perfectives/imperfectives better then my Chinese prof does. Basser g 06:42, 3 December 2007 (UTC)