Talk:Chinese fire drill

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[edit] Chinese Gift Exchange

- Not sure how old this expression is, but I have heard people use this to refer to the chaotic gift exchange game wherein each person at a party, upon being called up to select a "secret santa" gift, is given a choice between either selecting an unopened gift from a pile of gifts, or of taking a gift that has already been opened away from another participant. If the person makes the later choice, then the person who had their gift taken away from them becomes next in line to make the same choice (unopened gift from pile vs. previously opened gift from another participant), with the exception that they cannot take back the very same gift that was just taken from them. Etc.

While this term immediately struck me as racially insensitive, those I have questioned about it hadn't even stopped to consider that it might be rooted in racism. Instead the term was tossed about as freely as one might toss about "Dutch Treat" these days, though that term, too, has its roots in a early British slur against the then-perceived stinginess of the Dutch.

As for "Indian Giver", which is mentioned by someone else in this discussion, its my understanding that it stems from a lack of understanding by early American settlers of the practice among some "Indian" tribes of always returning any gift received with an even greater gift, or else rick insulting the original gift giver. Thus, to the early settlers, an "Indian Giver" was not one who took a gift back that they had previously given, but rather, was one who gave a gift with the expectation that they would not only receive a gift in return, but that the gift they received would be of greater value than the one they gave.

This may not be all that rare. There's been a fracas here several timezones away about a traditional confectionary with a name that generously translates as Negro's Kiss. It predates the offensive use of the term and as far as I know, which isn't very far, most people either aren't bothered because no offensive intent was meant or haven't thought about it at all - it's just a name. --Kiz o r 10:10, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Link

The link to www.thedigeratipeninsula.org.uk contains self-referential and unverified information dealing with the origin of the term, and definitely isn't encyclopedia-grade. I won't remove it now, but it would be nice to be able to credit a more authoratative piece on the subject. 24.76.183.115 06:33, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Racist?

Isn't this term considered racist, those silly people racing around but accomplishing nothing? Ortolan88

I think the origin of it is. I am not sure what the racism is, whether it is what you say or not. I do know that now we just do Chinese fire drills without thought about its history. That is, it is not racist for most people *now*. -- Ram-Man

I also think it's racist by todays standards of civil respect. I think an informative addition of that concept might be apropos. If you are trying to infer that this article should not exist, because the term is racist, I would say that's a bit narrow minded. It's not the duty of Wikipedia to eradicate racism. It is, however, it's obligation to describe it. Consider those people who are ignorant to the english speaking cultures of the world, perhaps even chinese people -- they should have the opportunity to learn about this euphamism in an informative and unbiased platform like Wikipedia. jgreat

Sorry, but whether "you" think about its history or not, it most certainly is racist and demeaning.David de Paoli

Well that is an interesting debate. It may even be related to the debate over the word "nigger", which I am not about to start here. What I am saying is not a point of view. It is simply the fact that people today take the term just as a label not really as too deep a meaning. Sure it is racist (no one yet has shown conclusively that it is, but we all suspect it) and that should be put in the encyclopedia entry as well. But be sure to put all of this in. -- Ram-Man

I'm sure the poster meant no offense, but the term is racist because it perpetuates a negative stereotype about Chinese people. What next? "Mexican standoff", two duellists shooting at the ceiling? Ortolan88

I'm sure you're right. Although it, and others like it, might be included in an entry entitled "Derogatory Stereotypical Ethnic References and Adages" or something like that. Such a subject might be educational in that it clearly reveals the racist origins of these sayings.David de Paoli

It'd probably fit better under an article that deals with this stuff more realistically - i.e., "oversensitivity on the part of minorities regarding long-standing colloquialisms." Maybe you could start it. 24.99.231.40 20:58, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Stub

Is this ever going to be more than a stub? SHould it be merged into a "list of stupid pranks"? -- Tarquin 17:38 Sep 30, 2002 (UTC)

Possibly, but this *is* racist and has a history that could be developed. It is not merely a "stupid prank". -- Ram-Man

[edit] Gee

Well, golly gee! Jest listen to you all white trash moaning about racist langage! When I was a boy, all we had to worry about was walking 10 miles to school -- uphill each way!!! ;-) --Ed Poor

Has anyone added the uphill in snow phrase to the encyclopedia? It is just about the most popular phrase for parents to tell their children in America! -- Ram-Man

[edit] Terms

A lot of terms that start out as racist become ingrained in the culture and language and lose their racist meaning in everything but the name. I was looking up some information and found another similar situation. The term "Saturday Night Special" was a term that originated from a racist term against Blacks. While these terms have an origin of racism, they are not necessarily used as such, though they may still offend people. Goodness, I am sure the nickname "Ram-Man" could offend people! -- Ram-Man

As the excellent Wikipedia article makes clear, the term Saturday-night special was devised and used as an insulting racial code word. Ortolan88

[edit] Dealing with articles

Okay, all kidding aside: what do we do with articles whose titles managed to offend one ethnic group or another? Delete them, because they're "obviously" racist? --Ed Poor

What is the wikipedia policy on swear words? Those are offensive as well. The policy should be similar at least. -- Ram-Man

Well, I wrote an article called [shithead], but some fuckhead deleted it ;-) --Ed Poor

[edit] Education

The encyclopedia is meant to educate. If people can't see the racism in "Chinese fire drill" then the article should point it out, as in the "Saturday night special article". Same goes for swear words, "Although considered by many offensive, this word ... "

This has made me think about "Indian giver". It could mean, if an Indian gives you a gift, he is likely to take it back, but it might also refer to the custom of potlatch, where guests receive all the gifts, or it might refer to the way white people have treated Indians. In any case, an article on Indian giver would have to take all of that into account.

By the way, implying that only older people use Chinese fire drill as a racist term while young people are innocent, what's up with that? Ortolan88

I've used the term Chinese Fire Drill many times without thinking about its origin. I am not saying that *all* old or young people think a certain way. But there was an important historical reason for putting down the Chinese in the 1960s. With the persecution of the Chinese surrounding some events such as the attack Pearl Harbor, this fits into that. These days I would argue that children in general are *far* less racist than their parent's generation. So they simply don't mean anything racist by the term and would not think of it as such. Of course it *is* a racist term. No one is denying that. -- Ram-Man

[edit] Propaganda?

There's a fine line between "educating" and propagandizing. Is the Wikipedia supposed to assert that racism is wrong? How about religious bigotry? How about indifference to other people's problems in general? I don't think it's the mission of Wikipedia to educate. It should just provide an accurate reference to knowledge.

On the other hand, if you'd like to join me in building an educational wiki... --Ed Poor

" It should just provide an accurate reference to knowledge." Exactly. And the sayings we're discussing are offensive to some and rooted in racism. The subject is not whether racism is wrong or not. It is not surprising to note, however, that persons who are *not* the targets of these slurs are the ones most militantly ready to use extreme or preposterous examples in order to discredit those who are offended by them.David de Paoli

True. Wikipedia itself is neutral. The negativity against racism is imagined: All things cause a reaction. To make it neutral, the blatant negativity is countered with speech of equal, yet opposite, strength.

Besides, humans are biased. We just try to remove the humanity.--Oreichalcos (talk) 01:19, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reference?

Was there ever a time when the idea that Chinese people are incapable of dealing with emergencies and that their only response is to run ineffectively about was a prevalent stereotype? Today is the first I've ever heard of it. My impression of Chinese is that they are outstandingly patient -- not prone to panic.

: This is the most plausible reference to the origin of this slur that I've seen- http://www.word-detective.com/back-x.html David de Paoli

Okay, I read that reference. It says: Hugh Rawson, author of some of the most fascinating word origins books in print. In his marvelous Wicked Words, Mr. Rawson notes that the use of the modifier "Chinese" in the derogatory sense of "confused, disorganized or inferior" dates back to the time of World War I and was largely a British invention. Other "Chinese" slurs of the day included "Chinese ace" (an inept aviator), "Chinese national anthem" (an explosion) and "Chinese puzzle" (one with no solution). [1]

Let's get working on an article like ethnic slurs or ethnic stereotypes. --Ed Poor

[edit] Firestorm

Geez, I didn't mean to start a firestorm with a simple stub about a nearly-obsolete expression. Wow. Since I started the entry, though, I'm hoping my latest edit, incorporating the excellent information added by you guys above, will satisfy most.

(Those who claim that any idea offensive to someone should *never* make into Wikipedia will of course, never be satisfied). The disclaimers others have already made, plus my own, regarding the potential offensiveness of the term should suffice for the rest.

For the record, I never intended to offend anyone, I just saw "Musical Chairs", randomly associated "Chinese fire drill", and thought I should put it in. People say it, it has a meaning, (two really, literal and figurative), why not add it in?

For David di Paoli, and for the record, I'm both Jewish and Canadian, and I give the community permission to add in one more derogatory expression for each of these affiliations, if it helps balance things. :-) --Steve Rapaport

Jewish *AND* Canadian? Ha- ha. We could have a field day with those ;) FWIW, I'm an Italian Jew, so I know offensive stereotypes, too... the fact that I fit most of them is beside the point.David de Paoli

...And I'm a Canadian Jew living in Italy. You think Italians in America are stereotyped, you should see them here...:-) --Steve Rapaport

[edit] Copyright

BTW, for 151.38.27.208, I looked at the copyright info of word- detective and they forbid being linked to anything but their homepage, which is why I deleted the link as such.David de Paoli

Ok, that's me again (Steverapaport), idiotically forgetting to login before editing. I've fired off an email asking *permission* to link to the guy's page at word-detective, either we get it in writing or we don't...--Steve Rapaport

[edit] Precision

Can we at least have some precision about this article? Is it popular in America, or in "America"? I can't fix this myself, as I don't know if they do this in Bolivia or just the US of A -- Tarquin 22:41 Sep 30, 2002 (UTC)

As far as specifically "Chinese Fire Drill" goes, the source I cited previously in this dicussion reports its origin is in early 20th century Britain, so at least that one wouldn't be restricted solely to US usage. As far as the other ethnic stereotypes, I've witnessed evidence of most of them, or variations thereof, in at least 4 other countries; Canada, Japan, Germany and Mexico. Whether or to what degree they occur in the rest of the Americas besides Canada, Mexico and US, I wouldn't know.David de Paoli

I know for sure it made it to Canada, dunno about Britain but seems likely if that's where it comes from. Could just say "English speaking countries" I dunno.

[edit] Permission

For David de Paoli: I have permission to link to word detective: Here's the mail from Evan: From: Evan Morris <words1@xxx> To: Steve Rapaport <steve@xxx>

Hi,

No, I don't have any problem with any link, and links to any page (not just the front page) on my site are fine with me. The more the merrier. That "copyright" statement is there primarily to deter newspaper columnists and usenet "experts" who at one time were copying huge chunks of my stuff and using it without attribution.

Thanks for asking.

Regards,

Evan

So David can you please put the link back, I don't know how to mess around with the history system yet.

--Steve Rapaport.

:: Done. Thanks, Steve.David de Paoli

I am a Chinese born and I do not feel one bit offended by this or any other "racial slur" against chinese or "chinks" of any nationality, I find the phrase funny. Perhaps I have better self esteem and brighter outlook to the world than most. Perhaps that is why such words and phrases do not offend me. I do wonder why others do get so offended, lack of self esteem and boredom with life are all I can really figure. -D. Cho

Hi all, Forty years ago I worked with an old miner in Colorado. He was 78 at the time. He showed me some shallow caves or the start of a mine. These all had a blackened area from what appeared to have been a fire. Old Mr. Crisler explained that these caves were made by the Chinese workers. They would find a area that might have gold and would build a large fire in front of the rock. This fire would continue until the rock was very hot. Then they would race up to the heated rock face throwing buckets of water on the hot rocks. This would fracture the rock making it workable with picks and small single jack drills. You can imagine the smoke and steam that arose from the rock, not to mention the sight of long qued chinese laborers screaming in their native tongue. What would an Irish worker have thought upon witnessing this? He would refer to any chaotic situation as a chinese fire drill.----john winkler

[edit] Need a substitute for this cliche

I don't want to be politically incorrect and say Chinese firedrill. Does anyone have a suggestion for a substitute phrase that expresses directed chaos without making a racial slur? It seems to be a frequent mode at my workplace.

Yes. "Clusterfuck." Also FUBAR.

[edit] Lane change

Some people in the U.S. use the term Chinese fire drill to refer to a driver changing over one or more lanes too fast.[3]
In Texas, an immediate move from far-left lane to exit ramp is what we call the San Antonio Lane Change, but I doubt that term is used widely enough to be put on Wikipedia. Usually it's Hispanics driving a 4-door car that execute the move. -Rolypolyman 00:01, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Chinese Ace" Reference

I noticed the term "Chinese Ace" in this article described simply as an inept pilot. Just wanted to throw in that according to my Air Force experience, a normal (or American) "Ace" is someone who has shot down at least 5 other aircraft, or has similarly scored 5 "kills". A "Chinese Ace", on the other hand, is someone who has either been shot down 5 times, who has crashed his own plane 5 times, or has ejected 5 times.

It is not hard to find pilots who have crashed or ejected once or even twice, but it takes a particular level of skill to repeat such events and maintain "alive" status. Obviously, such a pilot could readily be considered "inept" as the article states, but I believe has achieved a particular level of ineptness and luck that warrants a special title: Chinese Ace.

As so many other readers have accurately pointed out, it's extremely racist and of course inaccurate, but I'm just relaying how I've heard the term used.

I don't know how to make the changes to the wikipedia, and frankly, I'm too lazy to learn. So, anyone can feel free to copy what I've written or just ignore it.

70.169.53.69 (talk) 17:26, 5 March 2008 (UTC)Truthyness