Talk:Chinese Rites controversy

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Delisted version: July 4, 2007
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[edit] Dominicans?

Was it the Dominicans or the Franciscans? -- Error 01:44, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The data dump of 21:25, Nov 17, 2004 by user:137.132.3.7 (proxy server for the National University of Singapore) seems to be from the public domain, see [1]. olivier 22:15, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] European intellectuals

I took out the following paragraph, as it doesn't add anything to this section.

At the time, there was fascination among European intellectuals with Chinese culture, Confucianism, and the Chinese language. Some even pretended that the Church declared Confucius as a Christian saint.

--Ricky81682 05:44, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)

Declaring Confucius as a Christian saint is a show of readiness for compromise, just like accepting the Chinese rites. And the fascination part explains why they had so high a concept of Confucius. -- Error 01:04, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Ok, now I understand the context. I'll put it back. --Ricky81682 05:30, Nov 23, 2004 (UTC)
I think the Papal Bull banning Confucian ancestral veneration (note that I do not use the word "worship") has been superseded by a later Papal Bull under Pius XII.
Under the pontificate of Pius XII. the Sacred Congregation of Propaganda stated:
  • Catholics are permitted to be present at ceremonies in honor of Confucius in Confucian temples or in schools;
  • Erection of image of Confucius or tablet with his name on it is permitted in Catholic schools.
  • Catholic magistrates and students are permitted to passively attend public ceremonies which have the appearance of superstition.
  • It is licit and unobjectionable for head inclinations and other manifestations of civil observance before the deceased or their images.
  • The oath on the Chinese rites, which was prescribed by Benedict XIV, is not fully in accord with recent regulations and is superfluous.
(S.C.Prop. Fid., 8 Dec., 1939) AAS 32-24
I think this information should be added to the article. Gugganij 28 June 2005 22:44 (UTC)

[edit] Confucius as a Saint

What does it exactely mean, that some even pretended that the Church declared Confucius as a Christian saint. Who? European intellectuals in China, Jesuit missonaries in China, some intellectuals in Europe? Some men/women of importance? Gugganij 28 June 2005 22:30 (UTC)

I think it was missionaries working in China, but I don't remember where I got the idea from. --Error 29 June 2005 00:06 (UTC)

[edit] The "two orders"

Just stumbled upon this page, and don't have time to fix this properly, but the passage

It was related to larger controversies between the two orders

Appears after only one order (Dominicans) has been mentioned. From reading some of the rest of the text it seems to me like the other order is the Jesuits, so I suggest the above sentence be rewritten to explain that. --Cotoco 08:59, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Church overturned ban

My Catholic church celebrates Chinese rites including ancestral honorings (not worship) during Chinese new year's

Chinese rites during mass

[edit] Translation of "God"

something strange in Clement's bull 1. in Clement's bull apostolic authority wasn't invoked 2. Translation of a phrase is a linguastic issue and has nothing to do with faith. though of the two english words "Heavenly Lord" and "Supreme Emporer" which is acceptable is a matter of faith. it's obvious Clement didn't understand Chinese. The one who possibly explained the meaning of these words is Charles Maigrot whose Chinese was judged "woefully inadequate" by kang xi. so when Clement XI was banning the word "Heavenly Lord" he actually banned "Tian Zhu"/"T'ien Chu" as "Shangdi" means "Supreme Emperor" see meaning of "Shangdi"(sœng dai cantonese) and "Tian Zhu" (tin dzü in cantonese) here http://www.cantonese.ca/religion.php The meaning of the bull is made clear when Clement repeated God should be referred to as God of heaven, of Earth and of everything. it's obvious "Heavenly Lord" is unacceptable instead of "Supreme Emperor". In Benedict XIV's bull ex quo singulari(I haven't found it) it says only "Tian Zhu" is acceptable. this caused great confusion. also the translation of "Catholic Church" in Chinese is "Tian Zhu Jiao" (Tin dzü gau in Cantonese) which corresponds to "Heavenly Lord's Religion"!

Another explanation for this mess: Clement XI understood Tian Zhu is "Heavenly Lord" and thought it's acceptable, the phrase "(Shangdi)" was added by someone else who thought "Heavenly Lord" and "Shangdi" were the same. However Clement XI and Benedict XIV both mistook "Shangdi" for "ShangTian/Shangtin". "Shangtian/Shangtin" indeed means heaven and should be banned. In one of the most unbelievable event the title "ex quo singulari" is translated "Zi ShangZhu ShengYi"-- "From the holy will of the Supreme Lord" if only "Heavenly Lord" is acceptable, then how come the translation of "Supreme Lord"? if "Supreme Lord" is acceptable then "Supreme Emporer" is also acceptable.

The same problem also exist in Vietnamese. What is more I've read a Catholic Vietnamese Bible where the word "angel" is translated as "Thiên Thần" which means "Heavenly god"!

What should be said about Clement and Benedict? They shouldn't venture into a field they're neither familiar nor protected by the Holy Ghost, made mistakes, created a confusion and did the Catholic Church a disservice. They could have simply banned refering to God as Heaven without addressing the meaning of each Chinese word

I fully agree with Clement and Benedict on their other points like confucius and ancestor worship.

[edit] GA Re-Review and In-line citations

Note: This article has a very small number of in-line citations for an article of its size and currently would not pass criteria 2b.
Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 22:45, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Delist

This article does not meet 2a or 3a of the WP:WIAGA. This article needs a massive expansion and more sources. Until this is done, it cannot be a GA article. Z1720 06:51, 4 July 2007 (UTC)