Talk:Chinese Democracy

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Chinese Democracy article.
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Chinese Democracy was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: December 23, 2007
Articles for deletion An article was nominated for deletion on 24/7/2006. The result of the discussion was redirect.
Maintained The following user(s) are actively involved with this article and may be able to help with questions about verification and sources:
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[edit] Revisiting the "IF" debate

Since there's still no confirmation that this album is going to be released, it really ought to say "if released," not "when released." Hoshq 22:21, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

No, it really shouldn't. As minor as it is, Axl Rose described it as "the upcoming Guns N' Roses record" in gunsnroses.com's last update. This matter has been dealt with before - Rose has described the album as "upcoming". End of debate.
And yes, before you say it, I know all about March 6th. Funeral 22:29, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, that's one opinion, but the fact is, there's no release date, so until there IS one, we don't know IF there will be one. Hoshq 22:36, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Metallica's upcoming album doesn't have a publicly-known release date either - that article doesn't say "if", does it? Anyway, I've shown a quote from the band's frontman showing that it will be released, can you show me any reliable source to show that it won't be released? No, you can't. Funeral 22:41, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Okay, then I'll edit the Metallica page too. Words from this band's frontperson can hardly be considered a reliable source. Hoshq 22:44, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

WP:NPOV... I couldn't care less about what you think about Rose, he effectively is GN'R at this moment in time (sad, but true). Of course he's a reliable source. Funeral 22:54, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I just saw your edit to the Metallica article, while your at it, there's a lot of albums which "really ought to say 'if released'". Funeral 23:06, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure those ones all have guys with buckets on their heads (who play in cover bands) just waiting to change them back. Hoshq 23:03, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
And the point of that worthless comment was? Funeral 23:06, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Jumping in: Even if one does not want to consider Rose as a credible source, the album is listed for pre-order up on Amazon.uk at this link: [1] Now we all know pre-order dates can be changed, and we all know about the journey this album has had, but seeing as how there's an actual release date, they're letting people pay money to pre-order this and the album has been issued a valid ASIN, it appears to be a go. Brian May, who played on the album, also has it tentatively listed on his official site. [2] There's a disclaimer that it's "as reported by Amazon," but it's the first time May or anyone else who played on the album has actually said something like this or stood behind a release date even tentatively, so it's a vote of confidence IMHO. Any project that's pending release has the potential to be canceled, really. Wiki has plenty of other CDs and films in production and speculating on if they are going to be released is to flirt with WP:NOR, WP:NPOV and WP:CRYSTAL. The sources we have say it's coming out; that should carry the day.

For the time being, since this has gone back and forth, what I'd propose is that we take the sentence out completely. When this information can be updated (either with a tangible Chinese Democracy CD on the shelves; or confirmation that it's not going to happen) we can edit it back in to reflect what's happening. DanielEng 02:30, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Previous history regarding the albums "perpetual" pending release could lean editors opinions to think, or assume, that it won't be released... in which casr "IF" would be OK. However, editor opinions have no place on Wikipedia... only referenced content. If Axl Rose has said the the album 'IS' going to be released... and Axl Rose is most certainly a reliable source then there is no "if"... only a "when". Unless Rose suddenly changes his mind and says he is having second thoughts... that would be a referenced "if". Right now there is only a "when". 156.34.142.110 17:52, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
The way it's worded right now though, it makes it sound like the album has been released: "Chinese Democracy is the name of the long-awaited sixth studio album by the hard rock band Guns N' Roses." So perhaps the word "unreleased" ought to be inserted in there, to read something like: "Chinese Democracy is the name of the long-awaited, as of yet unreleased sixth studio album by the hard rock band Guns N' Roses." Hoshq 17:16, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
The best option would be:
"Chinese Democracy is the name of the upcoming [1] sixth studio album by the hard rock band Guns N' Roses. When released, it will be the band's first album of original studio material since the simultaneous release of Use Your Illusion I and II in 1991." Funeral 17:32, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I think the earlier lead-in statement that said "when the album is released... etc" should be put back into the article because that clarified that is a future release. It was also a verifiable statement from a reliable source... since Axl is the GnR boss... he is a reliable source... and him or anyone else associated with the band has ever said "maybe". If it's "when" and its verifiable... then the "when" statement can be restored. 156.34.142.110 20:33, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
So, can we get an agreement on the lead-in now? I'm in favour of using the one I posted above. Funeral 23:00, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
  1. ^ Axl Rose to appear on Sebastian Bach's new album, Angel Down
I'm very much in favor of Funeral's suggestion, myself, but my worry is that if it goes back in, we're going to be back to the constant reverts. DanielEng 01:50, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I've added the lead-in which I suggested to the article. Please don't edit it without discussing it here, Hoshq. -- Funeral (talk) 17:22, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

As the article abundantly documents, Rose has repeatedly proven himself to be an unreliable source regarding the release status. Anyone who wants to argue in favor of "when" is going to need a lot more than his say-so. Ribonucleic (talk) 01:00, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Jumping in too: This album has been "up on amazon.com for pre-order" practically ever since there was an amazon.com. You have obviously not been following this for very long. Axl Rose has been saying 'upcoming album' for 8 or 9 years now. With all due respect, your argument appears to be based more on delusional optimism than objective facts.

"If it's released" vs. "When it's released" is simply a debate between the people who choose to believe Axl Rose time and time again and say "When it's released" (likened to Charlie Brown continuously believing that Lucy will let him kick the football just because saying she will makes her a "reliable source" in his mind no matter how many times she fools him) versus sensible "If it's released" people who understand that Axl's word is not a "reliable source" - which is what Wikipedia articles are supposedly founded on.

Axl said "It is this year" in September 2006 and there is no album as of December 2007. He is not a reliable source. Wikipedia articles are supposed to be based on reliable sources. Again, Axl Rose, while he is one of the most talented rock stars of all time and writes some timeless music, is not a reliable source. It should read "If Chinese Democracy is released".

Ok, now the debate is over. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.4.117.222 (talk)

Axl Rose has said the album is upcoming - that's all that matters, he's a reliable source. Other musicians who have worked on the album have said it's upcoming too, Patti Hood, Sebastian Bach and Brian May had something on his website saying it's upcoming [Although I can't find that right now]. It doesn't matter if it's been delayed before and editors opinion doesn't matter either, Wiki uses reliable sources not its editors' opinions. And no, my opinion isn't "delusional optimism", I don't expect to have this album any time soon. Funeral 15:43, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Axl a "reliable source"? Um, ok, EXHIBIT A: www.dictionary.com 's definition of "reliable":

Trusty, authentic, consistent. Reliable, infallible, trustworthy apply to persons, objects, ideas, or information that can be depended upon with confident certainty. Reliable suggests consistent dependability of judgment, character, performance, or result.

Axl Rose said "We have a few final touches and hope to release it next summer" in the Fall of 1999 in a Rolling Stone interview. He said "It is this year" at the 2006 MTV Video Music Awards. The album is not out, nor is there any solid implication that it will be anytime soon...or ever, for that matter. And for the record, it is now almost 2008.

Now, please tell me in a truthful and non-biased manner - how exactly is Axl Rose a "reliable source" concerning the release of this album?

Even thought this album has been delayed more than Duke Nukem Forever (and that is saying a LOT), Axl and current band members are the only ones who can be considered reliable sources. I think that Axl is, at the end of the day, the who will decide when the album is done. So, imo, he is the only source of information we've got. And everyone knows Axl is a complex guy. Either way, I think the whole statement should be replaced with something like "The album is expected to be all original material". And maybe add: "Something that Guns hasn't done since Illusion 1 and 2". Or something like that.David Morón (talk) 18:10, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Well, in that case, you are breaking Wikipedia rules and redefining the term "reliable". Nice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.4.117.222 (talk) 07:18, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Axl Rose meets WP:V, thus he is a reliable source. Funeral 20:56, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Changing intro to "Chinese Democracy is the name of the long awaited tiology of albums by Guns N' Roses"

Hi! I just read an interview Sebastian Bach gave to a magazine in this the month of November. He states that his new favourite track is called "The General" and that when he asked Axl when the track would be released Axl said "2012". However Bach went on to explain that this track WILL NOT BE on Chinese Democracy 1 but instead will be released on the third album. He stated that Chinese Democracy is infact a triology of albums that are all linked someway lyrically and that the third album will feature "The General" and that the drumming work is done by Brain. Here is a link to a photoscan of the interview. I really think this information should be put in the article.

[[3]]

A mention of this in the "length" or "current status" sections is probably appropriate, but it's not that important really - most albums have follow-up albums. Funeral 23:27, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I completely disagree. There is a difference between follow up albums and a triology! If Chinese Democracy is not one entity but instead a triolgy it is worth a mention. At the very least "The General" should be added to the songs section because "Sorry" is there and its from the same source and practically the same wording.

How is it the same wording?? When Bach described "Sorry", he stated that it was on Chinese Democracy and he had contributed to it - that's nothing like what he said in regards to "The General". Funeral 23:36, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Bach said his favourite song was "Sorry" now he says his favourite song is "The General" so it should at least be under songs because we know from a very credible source that it exists! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.41.219.244 (talk) 23:38, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

No. Bach confirmed he had recorded vocals on a Chinese Democracy track called "Sorry", he confirmed that "The General" will NOT be on the album. Just because Bach has said that song exists, doesn't mean it should be listed as a track for an album he confirmed it wouldn't be on. Btw, remember to sign you posts with four tildes (these: ~~~~) at the end of you comment. Funeral 23:49, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I didnt say put it under the confirmed part but it should be listed somewhere 80.41.219.244 23:51, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I.e. Putting it into a standard paragraph? Such as: "In a November 2007 interview, Bach confirmed that Chinese Democracy would be a trilogy...... He also mentioned one track, entitled "The General".... etc." That's fine, but this song and alleged trilogy shouldn't be treated like a big thing in the article - this article's main focus is on Chinese Democracy.

YES! lol thats what i mean do that! 80.41.219.244 23:58, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

The wording "upcoming" is not only POV, as far as experience goes it's a bad joke! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.245.76.22 (talk) 17:49, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

It's not POV. Axl has said the album is upcoming. And please, don't give me any of that "Oh my god, we can't believe anything Axl says!" crap. Funeral 17:53, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

...how is saying 'you can't believe anything Axl says' "crap"? That would be the "POV" of a biased fan who obviously doesn't keep track of what Axl says and what Axl does. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.4.117.222 (talk) 05:46, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] First sentence of intro

I don't think it should say "...by the hard rock band Guns N' Roses." It should just say "...by Guns N' Roses." My reasoning is because you can't really define Guns N' Roses as a purely "hard rock" band anyway and the way it is stated with their genre sort of implies that they aren't really well-known. Blackzeppelin27 (talk) 21:50, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Considering that, I do like the addition of stating that it is the first of a trilogy of albums. I'm glad we've all come to an agreement with that, lol. Blackzeppelin27 (talk) 21:53, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rhiad Revival?

Hi! Listen i know dizzy had supposedly said that silkworms and rhiad were not going on to Chinese Democracy BUT the source that revealed the titles "Sway" and "If the world" was a setlist that was thrown into the crowd during the 2006 North American tour. "Sway" and "If the World" were on the page headed "PICKS" which was a list of songs that the band could choose to play during the course of the concert. Now, this "PICKS" section was very interesting not only because it revealed the new song titles but it also revealed that the band were prepared to play "Your Crazy" and "Double Talking Jive", even more interesting though was that it also had written "RHIAD". Now this is very interesting as it suggests to me that Rhiad is still on the options list for Chinese Democracy AND the note that is linked to the dizzy saying it wasnt thing is dead, so the proof is gone. For these reasons i think the part that says Rhiad is not going on CD should be altered/removed.

[edit] Neville Garrick artwork design

The statement that he worked on the artwork in April 2007 needs a citation. It has been like that for a while now. Blackzeppelin27 (talk) 01:05, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Album Cover Art

Hi! I was wondering if we should upload the picture that Axl said would be the cover art as the album cover picture. For those that don't know what it is, it was revealed to the audience in China when they played there in, I think, 2002 but it could be 2001, anyways, it is the black and white picture of the bicyle against a wall with "GUNS N' ROSES" graffiti behind it. This is a genuine photo which Axl took whilst in Hong Kong that he thought was cool and although it MAY have changed since the early 2000s the only album cover we have that has been confirmed by Axl is that very cover. This has all been mentioned in several reviews of the Chinese concert. Furthermore the picture was leaked onto the internet and can be found quite easily.

Just a thought as it IS official and it IS confirmed by Axl. Deleriousfishman (talk) 01:00, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Hmmmm... There are a lot of bicycle-themed fanmade art on the internet. I'd say wait until there's an official announcement until uploading any cover art. Also, in 2004, Tommy Stinson said the album was finished they just need to pick cover art and the CD design etc. so the bike picture might have been shelved a while ago. Funeral 01:05, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair point its just that big empty space is annoying me lol Deleriousfishman (talk) 01:07, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

The empty space won't be there much longer... "Soon is the word" ;-D Funeral 01:13, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Table of tracks from Chinese Democracy Sessions

Hi! What has happened to this? Why has it been removed? Deleriousfishman (talk) 21:28, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I removed it because it was unsourced. Funeral 21:31, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Well could we not keep it in but under a suitable heading, eg, Rumoured track titles as I found it to be quite interesting. Also there are tracks that are not confirmed for Chinese Democracy that do exist, eg, Rhiad and the Bedouins and Silkworms, also titles like If The World, Prostitute and Sway. These are all titles that can be sourced as being from the Chinese Democracy sessions, Rhiad and Silkworms because they were played live, and If the World, Prostitute and Sway from the same setlist picks sheet (that was thrown into the crowd, mentioned above under 'Rhiad Revival?') that brought Rhiad and the Bedouins back into the CD picture. These tracks are worth mentioning as they have either been played by the band or have been on a setlist created by the band! Deleriousfishman (talk) 21:41, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Entire album leaked?

Do you have a source for this? --Kilya (talk) 20:39, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I've removed it until a source is posted. A Google search turns up nothing. --Quartet 13:31, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
The album has been leaked though. I've heard three of the songs of it so far and my friend has more. Thanks for reading, ThundermasterTRUC 08:29, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

You're probably thinking of a bootleg called Whenever It's Done. This is the track listing:

"Better" demo
"I.R.S." demo
"T.W.A.T." demo
"Catcher in the Rye" demo
"Chinese Democracy" live
"The Blues" live
"Madagascar" live
"Rhiad and the Bedouins" live
"Oh My God" official version
"Silkworms" live

It's been floating around on P2P and torrents for years now. It's completely fake. Funeral 00:48, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that must be the one I've got. I really have got to find somewhere to find the actual demo of Chinese Democracy... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bon Ferret (talk • contribs) 00:22, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, you can search it on Youtube, and covert it with Zamzar into an MP3. Ganon391 (talk) 14:34, 8 March 2008 (UTC) Ganon391

[edit] Shaq's Vocals

Is that a joke? It should be removed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.230.35.68 (talk) 07:57, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

No, he did rap with the band once, although it won't be on the album. Funeral 17:10, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA nomination failed

I’m sorry, I can’t pass the article at this time. It fails the “stability” criteria as an unreleased album, becuase the information in it is very likely to change as the album charts or more information is announced. When the album is released, has spent a few weeks in the charts (has peaked and is on the way down), has been reviewed, etc., it can be passed as a GA. In the meantime, here are some notes for improvment before then. Cheers, — Dihydrogen Monoxide (Review) 02:25, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

*The infobox shouldn't contain refs - use them only in the article body and remove from the infobox

  • The lead states that Use Your Illusion I and II were the prior releases, but the navbox says it was "The Spaghetti

Incident?"...clarify

  • "The Spaghetti Incident?" is a covers album, UYI I and II were the last original studio albums

*The "Track listing" section should come last, not first *"In the beginning of 1998” - Change to “In early” *”In 2000, Rose hired guitar virtuoso[1]” - Could the ref be moved to the end of the paragraph? In any case, it needs some sort of punctuation under it

  • The ref was to avoid the POV which comes from using "virtuoso", I've changed it to "avant-garde metal guitarist" instead

*”The riot caused more than $400,000 (USD) in damages” - Format this the way you did with “Geffen paid Rose $1 million to try and finish the album” above (wlink the dollar sign) *”four performance at the” - plural...”performances” *”four performance at the Hammerstein Ballroom on May 12, 14, 15 and 17. These were followed by an acoustic set at The Plumm for Rosario Dawson's birthday party on May 18” - All the dates here need to be wlinked *”"due to limitations imposed by local fire marshals", [23] the second,” - Remove space between ref and comma

  • ”however, the album was once again delayed. [25] The next day” - And again...

*REf 26 needs a publisher *”along with former members Paul Tobias and Josh Freese, who have since left the band.” - “who have since left the band” is redundant to “former members” *”A studio version of "Madagascar" was leaked onto a fansite, on 29 March 2007” - Remove the comma *”demos on various GN'R fan forums” (ref 44) - Use the band’s actual name *”official website on December 14 2006...release date for Chinese Democracy of March 6 2007” - dates need wlinking *Other than the first paragraph, what’s the “Controversy and lawsuits” section got to do with the album that this article is about?

  • The other stuff was an offshoot of what came from the first lawsuit... removed
  • ”Axl ripped off my braids, I ripped off his album title” - Discuss said ripping off of braids :)

*Categeory:Guns N' Roses not needed here, as the article is in Categeory:Guns N' Roses albums anyway. You can leave a note on my talk page if you have any comments or questions. Cheers, — Dihydrogen Monoxide (Review) 02:25, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to review it anyway :-) Funeral 03:33, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:GNR-NA.jpg

Image:GNR-NA.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 17:19, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Oh My God

Hasn't this song been confirmed??? Thanks for reading, ThundermasterTRUC 13:15, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

No, and I doubt it will be on the album either. Funeral 18:15, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Why is that? They must think it is good enough if it was released as a single. Thanks for reading, ThundermasterTRUC 08:29, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
As far as I'm aware, Axl didn't want to release it. The record company forced him to put it on the End of Days soundtrack. Funeral 00:43, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
It was released as a single, but back in 1999, and I doubt Axl's gonna put a previously released song on the record anyway. Bon_Ferret —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bon Ferret (talk • contribs) 00:16, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Yeah...At least when the album is released, it'll be good. I suppose it's better to spend 13 years on an album and make it really good than to do a Megadeth 1 year album. Thanks for reading, ThundermasterTRUC 14:25, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Release date confirmed

http://www.rte.ie/arts/2008/0125/gunsnroses.html Yoosq 17:17, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

"Rose is currently arranging details for the album's release date, which is rumoured to be late summer." - Read WP:CRYSTAL. Funeral 18:44, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tom Zutaut confirms "Atlas Shrugged"

Finally, some confirmation that "Atlas Shrugged" is not a form of "Madagascar" or anything like that, but an actual song. Zutaut confirmed it in an a huge interview with Classic Rock magazine which has a giant cover/spread on Chinese Democracy. The magazine isn't out, so there's no tangible source, but the article was leaked on GN'R forums, so, it is real. And it is, finally confirmed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chinesedemocracystarts2008 (talk • contribs) 03:33, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Zutaut didn't confirm it will be on the album - he just stated that it existed. Besides, he's not the best source for confirmed tracks considering he hasn't been with the band for years. Funeral 18:40, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Release date?

I was browsing around and found this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Chinese-Democracy-Guns-N-Roses/dp/B000NQDFP8/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/202-2639331-9651061?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1194574352&sr=8-1 first off, it lists the label as geffen, wich most likely is incorrect. also, it says it's going to be released august 25th, 2008? can this be verified? LukeTheSpook (talk) 23:31, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

You Honestly believe Amazon.com? If you can find this date, on ANY other site than this, or amazon my hat goes off to you. Noskap (talk) 4:41pm, 19 March 2008 (EST)

  • i'm not saying i beleive it as a reliable source, i'm just wondering where the hell they came up with that. LukeTheSpook (talk) 14:17, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Alleged Dr. Pepper Promo

Should there be any mention of the rumor that Dr. Pepper will give every American a free Dr. Pepper if CD is released by the end of 2008? Even if it isn't real, this is one of the largest events to happen this year for GNR. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.23.183.191 (talk) 21:41, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

  • I think it should be. Its an offical statement, by Dr Pepper. Guns n' Roses had to say this on their Myspace. "We are surprised and very happy to have the support of Dr. Pepper with our album Chinese Democracy as for us this came totally out of the blue. If there is any involvement with this promotion by our record company or others we are unaware of such at this time. And as some of Buckethead's performances are on our album I'll share my Dr. Pepper with him.

-Axl Rose" So, I think it should be added Ganon391 (talk) 01:52, 27 March 2008 (UTC) Ganon391


[edit] Catcher in the Rye?

Shouldn't Catcher in the Rye be in the confirmed for Chinese Democracy part of the main page? I thought this track is going to be on the album, I hope it is, it's amazing! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.235.187.124 (talk) 19:09, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

No. It's never been confirmed for the album by anyone associated with the band. Funeral 13:58, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for the reply. It makes sense now. Do you think its possible it could be on the album? The demo sounds amazing, it would be a shame if they never released it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.235.183.8 (talk) 03:40, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Of course there's a chance it'll be on the album, but the leaked demo was recorded in 1999 and the band have never mentioned the song so it's hard to say whether it will be on the album for sure. Funeral 00:00, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] album handed in to geffen

This is heresay and should not be in the article.

It comes from the same source that says GN'R will be in a reality tv show - which has been proven false. Beta Lebeis said the album was finished. No one has ever said that the album has been handed in. The source for this AllYourTV.com - not reliable. 72.79.203.46 (talk) 13:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC)Mack Arillo