Talk:Chili oil

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[edit] Merge proposal

Merge Rayu into Chili oil. Badagnani 06:11, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Photo

Need photo of commercially available jar of chili oil. Badagnani 18:52, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of Korean information

Do not remove the Korean name. It is used in jjamppong and probably also other dishes. No matter that it may have originated in China; a lot of foods, like dangmyeon, also originated in China. Chilis originated in Mexico. See [1] for over 300 thousand hits about chili oil in Korean (there are even more using slightly different names in hangul). Badagnani 17:28, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Jjampong is pan-asian version of a chinese dish. It's not used is other orean dishes. There are a dozen other Asian countries that do consume this regularly as part of their native diet. Putting in Korea in this makes as much sense as putting it in English.melonbarmonster 17:49, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Jjamppong is as Korean as jajangmyeon is, and I would not hesitate to discuss chunjang in an article about Korean cuisine. I have already provided over 300 thousand hits showing that this food is produced and consumed in Korea, as part of Korean cuisine. Badagnani 17:52, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

LOLOLOL!! jajangmyeon and jjampong is korean versions of chinese cuisine. Japanese have their own versions of it. Thanks for proving my point.melonbarmonster 18:02, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Jjamppong is as Korean as jajangmyeon. Neither is the same as its Chinese antecedent, as any Chinese or Korean person will be happy to tell you. Jjampong is even spelled with a "jj," which usually signifies terms that are not derived from hanja. Though if you do know the hanja for jjamppong, please add them to the Korean Chinese cuisine article, thanks. Badagnani 18:06, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Blanking

This blanking of text is unwarranted, as explained above--chili oil is certainly used in Korean cuisine (in the dish jjamppong as well as others, and there are over 300 thousand Google hits for this food item in hangul) and thus merits mention here. Please reverse this blanking. Badagnani 18:10, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unclear/poor grammar

This edit seems not to have been well thought out. The breaking of the sentence into two makes the grammar incorrect in English, and something cannot be reddish and black at the same time. However, it can be dark red. Badagnani 18:11, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

The grammar in this edit again changes things to grammar that is not used in English. The prior version was more clear, using "often" instead of "sometime." Badagnani 18:27, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Improper use of English

Regarding this edit: in the English language, an "additive" is usually a chemical that is added in small amounts during production (in the factory) to preserve or modify its color, texture, or appearance. The term "condiment" was correct, in that it's added to food at the table, and "additive" is simply incorrect in this context. Please reverse this edit, thanks.

additive is not necessarily chemical in nature. Link to condiment is already established later in the article.melonbarmonster 18:23, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I will reiterate that a substance added to a dish at the table to enhance that dish's flavor is not called an "additive" in the English language; it is generally called a "condiment." An "additive" is generally added to a food during processing, at the factory, before it is packaged. Badagnani 18:30, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Listing Vietnamese cuisine first

Regarding this edit, I believe Chinese cuisine should be listed first (i.e. before Vietnamese cuisine), as this condiment probably originated there. Although it is used to some extent in Vietnam, as in Korea many Vietnamese prefer for everyday use a chili sauce without oil. Badagnani 18:22, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Restored Edits in lieu of continuing discussion

LOL. I was wondering why you were so willing to engage in discussion instead of blind reverting as you had been doing and I see you're trying not to violate the 3RR rule. 3RR by the way is not a hard and fast rule. You can be banned for even 3 reverts if reported. Please don't engage in reverting as you have been in the habit of doing. I don't want to take advantage of your situation and as a sign of compromise I've restored my edits as a gesture of good faith. I'd appreciate a little reciprocation.melonbarmonster 18:40, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

The term "redish," as it appears in this article, is not a word in English. Badagnani 18:54, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More blanking by user:Melonbarmonster

The blanking of text which stated that this condiment is used in the Korean dish jjamppong was unwarranted. We really need to explain this item fully, and we're not running out of space. A mention of its use in jjamppong is important. Badagnani 18:55, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. I've made significant compromises in good faith. There are hundreds of indigenous and more popular, significant uses of chili oil around the world. Your insistence on highlighting jjamppong reaks of a grudge rather than any sincere attempt at improving this article. Hard to assume good faith on that one. I've compromised significantly and you are here accusing me of "more blanking". Let us both try to be reasonable here.melonbarmonster 19:02, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I believe you have stated earlier, more than once, that this condiment is not used in any Korean dish. Thus, I added to the article that it is used in jjamppong, which we can agree is the best known use of this condiment in the cuisines of Korea. We can add its specific uses in other Asian cuisines later, to create the most comprehensive and best sourced article on this condiment anywhere on the Internet. Let's work together to do this! Blanking isn't really a good idea, especially when there isn't any doubt about the veracity of the text blanked, thanks. Badagnani 19:05, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

check above response.melonbarmonster 19:20, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Chili oil may be used around the world, but its primary uses are in East and Southeast Asian nations. These include, but are not limited to, China, Taiwan, Singapore, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia, the Philippines, and Indonesia, as well as some smaller Southeast Asian nations. Typically when it is found in North or South America, or in Europe, it is used when preparing cuisines from one of the aforementioned East or Southeast Asian culinary traditions. Badagnani 19:21, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I already explained why you're wrong on this. Repeating yourself doesn't change anything. Korean use of chili oil is exactly the same as chili oil use in US or South America. There's no indigenous use of this ingredient.melonbarmonster 19:31, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Jjampong, as part of Korean Chinese cuisine, is a very popular food in Korea. It is not the same as its Chinese antecedent and chili oil is used as a condiment in this dish. Thus, blanking mention of this important use in the cuisine of Korea from this article is ill-advised and the editor is strongly recommend to reverse his/her blanking. Further, 300,000 Google hits for this item in hangul show that this food is well known in Korea, and even produced there. This has already been discussed at some length, so the assertion that this item is not used or known in Korea (as you have stated several times) has been shown, through the use of these sources, to have no merit. Badagnani 19:41, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

All ethnic cuisines in US is the same and enjoy the same popularity. That doesn't make hot oil American. Take this to dispute resolution if you feel so strongly about it. Let's resolve it through properly means instead of revert warring. Leave the article as is in its last state on consensus.melonbarmonster 19:47, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

In restaurants in the United States, chili oil is only found and available in Chinese restaurants. It is rarely used in other cuisines in the United States, except when preparing Chinese dishes. As stated above, the blanking of the section about chili oil's use in jjamppong was unwarranted and should be reversed promptly. Badagnani 19:51, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

In Korea chili oil is also found only in Chinese restaurants. New American restaurant also use chili oil.melonbarmonster 19:56, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

If you're sure of the former fact (I'm not, as another editor from Korea seems to think it is used in one province in non-Korean Chinese cuisine dishes), then we can add that information in the article. It also appears to be produced and commercially available in South Korea. And jjamppong cannot be claimed to be a "Chinese dish," as it is not the same as its Chinese antecedent; it is a thoroughly Korean Chinese dish and should be described as such. Regarding the use of chili oil in American restaurants, these would primarily be Chinese restaurants in the U.S. Badagnani 02:25, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Jjamppon is as "Korean" as is chicken with garlic sauce is "American". Fact remains that there are literally hundreds of more indigenous, more prevalent and important uses of chili oil than jjampong. Your continued focus on this is factually misleading and wreaks of personal vandetta.melonbarmonster 19:35, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

If you believe jjamppong to be a dish that is Chinese and not Korean (though our own article describes it as an important dish of Korean Chinese cuisine), what is the Chinese name for jjamppong? Badagnani 19:53, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

What's shrimp with lobster sauce in Chinese?

But are you seriously this uninformed? I feel like I'm your Korean cuisine teacher. JJamppong is only sold at what Koreans call "Chinese houses". It's was sold as chinese food sold by Chinese expats in Korea just like American Chinese food. It's stil sold as Chinese food in Korea along with other "chinese foods" that everyone knows by heart. Both Korean and American Chinese food is very different from mainland Chinese food and have evolved into their own characteristics. If you don't know things like this I have no idea how you're making these edits to food related articles.melonbarmonster 02:48, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

The fact remains that you blanked, without consensus, the information that chili oil is used in jjamppong. That was wrong and you need to re-add this information promptly. Badagnani 19:54, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

What you're calling blanking is just common courtesy in wikipedia. When there's a disagreement you revert back to the last point on consensus. The last point of consensus is the way the article was before you added the Korean name and mentions of Jjamppong in the article. Until we're able to resolve the dispute the article should be kept at it last point of consensus. You're the one who's trying to include your edits so go make a third party request. That's the first step the dispute resolution. Check out dispute resolution under the Help section if you're not familiar with this process.melonbarmonster 02:48, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

If you're genuinely interested in making this article better, you would focus on literally hundreds of other indigenous and popular uses of chili oil.melonbarmonster 03:07, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Certainly--the other uses in China and Japan should be added, as well as the other uses in the Korean province which, according to that other Korean user uses it. Typically this happens when editors knowledgeable in those cuisines come along and add things. It's a cumulative process and the article gets better and better. Badagnani 06:12, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Other ingredients

Is salt ever one of the ingredients in chili oil? Badagnani 23:25, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I have never seen anything besides oil and chili extracts in chili oil. It would otherwise have to be labeled "seasoned" and honestly that wouldn't make any sense to me other than preservatives which are sometimes added to flavored oils to prevent botulism.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 03:00, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] All these translations

My head starts to hurt a bit when I see an article with so many translations at the top of the article. Isn't that why we have Wikipedia in other languages? It makes the lead difficult to read, there are a number of translations at the beginning that don't even say what language they are from, or do I assume they are Chinese as after the long string of translations Chinese is the first English word in the lead other than Chili Oil? If you translate to all of these languages, doesn't that mean that we need to translate to every other language for every culture that uses chili oil? If you can not tell, I am not in favor of this and precedence from other articles is not a good argument, I think we need to check up on Wikipedia policy for this.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 06:41, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you that it's dizzying. We can move them to another section or put them in a box, as we do for many other Chinese food items. Those of us who work on Asian cuisine items need to have these so we can search and find articles and photos in non-English Google searches. It's really indispensable. Badagnani 06:56, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

This item is known and used primarily in East and Southeast Asia, but we wouldn't generally give the Navajo, Icelandic, or Zulu names, though we probably would want to give the names in the cuisines the food is used primarily in, as with Cellophane noodles or Tofu. Badagnani 07:01, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Well I know with cuisine articles there is a way to do translations for the tag at the bottom, Ill be honest I don't know the way this is done and even if it does the same as what this heading does. If perhaps we can't get the answer here, I will ask at the Village Pump for assistance.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 07:10, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Are you talking about interwikis? Badagnani 07:32, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I just realized that was what I was thinking of, which doesn't help here. I know the policy is to use the translation once in an article such as when a dish is first named on the Korean cuisine article for the first time and then use the English translation for the remaining instances, but I am unsure how to deal with it here. It is rather disruptive to the reading of the article. I'll have to sleep on it, maybe you'll come up with an idea in the mean time.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 07:39, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Even more blanking by User:Melonbarmonster

This edit does not make any sense, as our very own article states that chili oil is used in the dish jjamppong. This reversion is becoming very disruptive. Please contribute constructively, not destructively to Wikipedia, thanks. Badagnani 07:07, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ingredients list

Excuse me, I didn't realize there was such a lot of discussion about this. I added other ingredients, taken from the labels of commercial Chinese and Japanese oils which I have used, and from ones I've seen in the store. Also, some from Internet recipes. If this isn't in line with somebody's idea of the article goals, just delete it. Regards. Alpha Ralpha Boulevard 07:16, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I've got some in front of me that has Sichuan peppercorns and sesame seeds, in addition to the normal vegetable oil and ground dried red chilis. But the name, as given in Chinese, isn't exactly the same; it has a few more characters. I think it's Sichuan-style chili oil. Badagnani 07:29, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Cool! Got it--the one I have is 家居油辣子. This would mean something like "home style oil spicy." The English says it's Sichuan style. Badagnani 07:39, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I'll check it out in more detail tomorrow morning Badagnani in China town here in Boston.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 07:31, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I think they can fit in somehow, we need to source them though to not have confusion. I'm glad you put up the chili, garlic oil because it just reminded me of it. I will look into it some more when the morning hits here. Thanks for the contribution, do you recall the brand names of the oils with additional flavors added to them?--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 07:30, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

The brand I have is "Red Earth." Badagnani 07:53, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC, I guess the "point of order", so to speak, is whether something labeled as "X Style Chili Oil" belongs in this article. There's no question that many of the ingredients I mentioned are in some variation of "basic" chili oil. Here's an example: http://www.amazon.com/7-2-Chiu-Chow-Chili-Oil/dp/B000T3WBX2 (Note the ingredient list). Regardless of how the article wants to treat such things, the reference to sesame oil as a ingredient should stay, because that's a normal high cost alternative to soybean oil in "basic" chili oil. !Alpha Ralpha Boulevard 07:53, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Hrm, no, that wasn't my thought at all. I wasn't saying that anything should be removed, I was actually welcoming it and just trying to figure out the best way for it to become part of the article which just means there needs to be some sort of organization, such as what types of oils are used, what types of chilies and what types of additional flavorings are added which seem to differ with each culture and different commercial products within those cultures.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 08:00, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC, there's a problem of classification. Perhaps that can be approached by assuming that major commerical Chinese (Japanese, Thai, etc.) products represent "traditional" chili oils. Commerical products, however, can't be relied upon for ingredient lists, since they often economize. In the example URL above, that product contains water, salt, sugar, and preservatives -- some of which I wouldn't expect in a traditional oil, and none of which I would tend to put in a homemade chili oil. (Variations by culture will be tricky, because cultures have a tendency to modify recipes with whatever is familiar to them. Here in California, I'd expect a good chef to use olive, sesame or canola oil, whereas in the midwest USA, I'd expect they're using corn oil more often -- just as a casual guess.) Alpha Ralpha Boulevard 08:45, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

This is where quality cookbooks and culinary manuals can come into play then instead of personal websites. I own many, many books on most of the major cuisines (I have a library of over 1,000 books on food and culture as I am a food historian, not just a chef). I am sure there are websites that are better than others as well. It is important to have both the commercial varieties and non-commercial varieties included making sure they satisfy Wikipedia:Notability in their variations.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 09:01, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, a published book is very good. You're a professional chef, and I only know a couple who happen to be in my family, so I'm going to lean toward your judgment about book selection. I do still have the issue that if the book includes some -- let's call it "chi-chi" -- recipe for chili oil, that it won't receive much of an echo in the bulk of the population which frequently use chili oil.

As for the non-commercial varieties and variations of chili oil...uh...it's just a little overwhelming. A PhD dissertation for someone... Alpha Ralpha Boulevard 09:26, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Corn oil isn't as popular as it once was, even in the Midwest where corn is grown. Soybean oil, though, is what is usually labeled as "vegetable oil." Sunflower, safflower, or peanut might be used as well. Honestly, I've never seen toasted (brown) sesame oil used to make chili oil. Badagnani 08:52, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok, Badagnani, no fear there, I've got the bottle right in front of me. I mean the chili oil. It's got two ingredients sesame oil, and red pepper. (It's Japanese, and I can't read the name, just the distributor.) There's another version of this product I've purchased which adds paprika. Alpha Ralpha Boulevard 08:58, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I've seen "paprika" given on Chinese ingredient lists, and I think it's some crazy translation they're getting from some dictionary they have in the factory. The term "paprika" is pretty specific to the Hungarian and Spanish varieties of semi-spicy powder made from dried red Capsicum. Badagnani 09:02, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the sesame oil, from my experience it may be the blonde-colored non-toasted kind rather than the dark brown toasted variety. Badagnani 09:02, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Badagnani, both the "paprika" comment and the "blond sesame oil" comment seem likely. In the case of "paprika", looks like we might need someone with Japanese to read the bottle. As for "blond", is this like...a personal reference to my hair color... do we have something against blonds? Seriously, toasted vs. untoasted, just seems like another variant to consider, here? Alpha Ralpha Boulevard 09:13, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Haha, here are Spectrum's two varieties:

Badagnani 09:16, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Badagnani Ah, this is in reference to you saying you've never seen dark sesame oil in chili oil. I haven't either. Alpha Ralpha Boulevard 09:37, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Good point--the ones with added ingredients do seem to be "X-style" chili oils. Hit the grocery stores, bring a notepad, and see what the ingredients on the jars say. The Asian supermarket near where I live must have at least 2 dozen varieties. Badagnani 08:21, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I also have a bottle of Sichuan pepper-flavored oil, but it has no solids; it's clear and yellow in color rather than red, and is simply soybean oil that's presumably been infused with Sichuan peppercorns or Sichuan peppercorn extract. So it would be a different category of oils, in this case an infused or flavored oil. You have to be very savvy to find these things because the English on the label is usually wrong. This one says "Chili Oil" in English but the Chinese says 花椒油, which means "flower pepper oil" (Sichuan pepper oil). Badagnani 07:42, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

A "Flower pepper" is a type of chili, so that makes sense actually.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 08:07, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

This is very interesting. This person talks about making a batch of homemade chili oil, and adding all kinds of "secret ingredients" like small amounts of MSG, salt, soy sauce, garlic, and star anise. Just translate it from Chinese-simplified to English with babelfish.altavista.com to read it. One note: whenever the translation is given as "garrulous," this is a mistranslation; the character 碎 should translate as "crushed" or "powdered." Badagnani 07:58, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Badagnani, I've been experimenting with chili (fresh and dried) and sesame oil, and, just throwing things together, made very good oils at considerably less costs. Commercial oil now seems insipid...and it's usually stale, no matter where I buy it, or how much I pay. (And I live in an urban area with a huge Oriental presense.) I'd actually think twice about using the oil they use in Chinese restaurants, now. There's a lot of potential payoff, here. Alpha Ralpha Boulevard 08:20, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

But I'm also not in favor of citing a persons personal webpage for an encyclopedic article, we should use better more concrete sources with fuller cultural authenticity. It would be like citing my recipe for cassoulet off of the food blog I run, although it may seem authentic, who am I to be an authority on such a subject unelss you know my full-background, proper research techniques and academic authority.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 08:07, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I added it for informational purposes. This research progresses block by block, often slowly. I hope you're not implying that I was going to immediately inject this information into the article willy-nilly? If you examine my contribution history, I think you'll find I don't do that. Badagnani 08:17, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I often come of crabbier after 3am as I get more blunt in my comments as I get tired, so don't mind me lol.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 08:32, 13 November 2007 (UTC)