Talk:Children of God

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[edit] Wikiproject?

I made these comments at Category talk:Children of God, but this topic could use a WikiProject, and also an article on Philip Sloan, most certainly notable enough. I could design a WikiProject, if there is participation and active involvement from at least a smattering of other editors... Smee 07:40, 26 May 2007 (UTC).

[edit] New template created

I have created a new template for related articles to this one. If you wish to add it to an article, simply add {{Children of God}} to the bottom of the article. Thank you. Smee 03:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC).

Good job! Joie de Vivre 13:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Many articles added to Category:Children of God

I am glad that Smee was inspired to create this template; apparently the template was made shortly after I spent an hour mining for articles and adding them to Category:Children of God. There were so many that I created Category:Current and past members of the Children of God, Category:Books which discuss the Children of God and Category:People who researched the Children of God. It's good to see that others are interested in organizing these articles too! Perhaps more people will be interested to assist, now that there are more related articles easily available for referencing. Joie de Vivre 13:10, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wording of statement

Which way should the statement defining The Keys of the Kingdom be worded?

  • These spiritual keys are also believed to power various UFOs and other spacecraft (known as Key Craft), and can turn into swords for the purpose of fighting demons and other negative forces.
  • These spiritual keys are also believed to power various spiritual spacecrafts (known as Key Craft), and can turn into swords for the purpose of fighting demons and other negative spiritual forces.

All input is appreciated. hmwithtalk 21:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

  • My take is that the change was made by someone that knew whereof he spoke. It is interesting that the change made by the new editor makes the concept more understandable while the version enforced by Smee makes the concept look sillier. Or is that just me? --Justanother 22:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
  • I don't know enough about Children of God to really say anything either way, so that's why I'm asking. hmwithtalk 22:48, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Well, then let's AGF that the new editor made a righteous edit. It looked righteous to me and I support it. --Justanother 22:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

xFamily Moving On These pages which describe "Key Craft" might be helpful. Joie de Vivre 23:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

  • The new edit is wrong, but does not bother me enough to revert (especially since it reads a little better). The Family does not consider Key Craft to be completely and strictly spiritual, since they believe many "spirit world" entities are able to take on physical form. (A sidenote is that the Family does not believe that all UFOs are powered by the Keys; just Key Craft.) As for inserting the word "spiritual" into "negative forces," again this is not quite accurate. Some examples of "negative forces" the Keys are often called on to fight are so-called apostates and non-sympathetic media. --Monger 01:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Interesting. Thanks. Here is a line from Zerby[1]:

    24. I prefer to call it the key craft‚ for this craft transports the might and power and energy of the keys. It is spiritual, yet more real than life itself. Instruments of man cannot detect it, yet it is real, it is in existence. It is powerful‚ and it is to assist you in these Last Days.

    That quote and many other parts of that text explain the intrinsically spiritual (or Heavenly) nature of the craft. Presenting a religion's views of spiritual or heavenly craft as just some UFOs is a degradation and, given my long history with the WP:OWNing editor that edit-warred over the change and called it "nonsense", one that I see as deliberate. They believe in spiritual craft, not UFOs. Perhaps a fine difference but a difference nonetheless and if what may well be a knowledgable editor comes here and makes that distinction then I, for one, respect that.--Justanother 03:11, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the quote. This is largely unrelated (since non-Key-Craft UFOs are not tied to the Keys of the Kingdom), but Family publications have frequently spoken about other types of UFOs which are spiritual in nature, and believe these explain some UFO sightings. They also have not ruled out alien existence or visitation, though such beliefs are not a big part of their doctrine by any means. --Monger 00:35, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] See also

I have created a See also section. The links in the See also are related to the Children of God but are not mentioned in the article. Links mentioned in the article are not in the section. Joie de Vivre 18:00, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite template

I don't disagree with the {{Cleanup}} template currently on the top of this article, but is the immediately following {{rewrite}} template really necessary? It says, "This article or section may need a complete rewrite." While I think the introduction might benefit from a rewrite, the placement of the template implies, at least to me, that it is referring to the entire article, and I do not agree with the template in that context. Joie de Vivre (who added the template) and other editors, what are your thoughts on this? --Monger 00:58, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

It sounds like we interpret the word "rewrite" differently. The reason I placed the rewrite template is that I see the article as needing more than minor cleanup. I view the article as needing changes to the structure of the article as well as editorial work. I placed the template because the problem is not with the content or its accuracy, as the NPOV, TotallyDisputed, Original Research templates would indicate. The problem lies in the writing style (which is somewhat informal), and the way the information is organized. The basic structure is OK but it could be condensed and streamlined quite a bit. The divorce between the "History" and the "Issues" section is particularly vexing; as the timeline is presented without the interruption of governmental intervention and so forth, the rise of FREECOG, etc. Joie de Vivre 16:55, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Specific examples of what you are referring to are always better than generalisations. I am also strongly against placing {{Cleanup}} and {{rewrite}} tags without discussing it here first. Wikipedia articles will always need "cleanup" and "rewrites", but that doesn't mean we should place these tags on all articles. In fact, I think this article is much better than many articles not containing these tags. Until very specific examples (i.e., actual sentences, phrases, words, etc.) are given, I am in favour of removing both tags. --Thorwald 00:14, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
After reading both Joie de Vivre's and Throwald's responses, I am neutral on the issue. I still don't like seeing those templates at the top of the article, but I appreciate the improvements being made. --Monger 03:51, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Teens 4 Christ?

Why does Teens for Christ redirect here? I see no mention of it in the article. I am trying to find information on the website teens-4-christ.org.    DangerousNerd    talk    contribs    email   20:22, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

That is THE snazziest signature I have ever seen. Google "Children of God" and "Teens for Christ" together; there are some sources; here's one: from xFamily. Joie de Vivre 21:11, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, Joie. I can't take credit for it though. Saw it on a guy over at Lostpedia. I'm actually changing it though because people have said it takes up too much space in the source. sigh Thanks for the info, too. And here, for the last time, is the sig.    DangerousNerd    talk    contribs    email   00:06, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Alas. :( Joie de Vivre 16:24, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV tag added

I have also placed a {{NPOV}} template in the article - the article is clearly written from a certain POV, this needs rectifying. Sfacets 20:30, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

You have not specified the problems. Please specify what exactly is "disputed" and what changes you would have to see in order to fix the problems. Joie de Vivre 21:16, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
There is so much that needs changing, both OR and POV. For example "fitting the definitions of a cult used by cult watch organizations and some government organizations" or "Theologians have placed TFI's basic theology or "A central tenet to their theology is the "Law of Love," which stated simply claims that if a person's actions are motivated by unselfish, sacrificial love and are not intentionally hurtful to others," All of which both do not attribute the claims to any particular person and which are mostly original research.
The whole 'Plagiarized art' section also appears to be OR.
These are just a few examples I have found while spending 2 minutes going through the article. Sfacets 07:37, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
This article needs more citations. That much is clear. However, the items you pointed out are far from original research. They are simply lacking the "proof" of this provided by links to reliable sources (in most cases the claims could be supported by linking to the Family's own publications). I am removing the NPOV template again, and am personally opposed to adding it unless you point out issues which are actually contested by academics, researchers, or others who are familiar with the group. I'm not saying that is WP policy or that you don't fit such a description, but in any case I'd like to know more about what your actual problems with the claims are. --Monger 01:09, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ricky Rodriguez Murder/Suicide

Again xfamily is a good resource as well as news reports but this is an integral part of the Children of God Story as he was a child of the founders and brought up in the Children of God and his claims of abuse especially against sibling Merry are substantial.

[edit] Removal of content

Links to the following in the See also section were removed:

  1. Opposition to cults and new religious movements
  2. Panton Hill, Victoria is a location of one of the communes, where a large government raid took place, and many children were removed by social services
  3. Religious prostitution is a term which may describe Flirty Fishing
  4. Love bombing describes a manipulative recruitment style
  5. Third Culture Kids is a term which describes children who spent significant time in a culture outside their own
  6. Missionary Kids is a similar term

FREECOG was one of the original groups that formed in opposition to a new religious movement, so certainly the first one should stay. The raid was the biggest news in years in Panton Hill, the second one should definitely stay. Third Culture Kids and Missionary Kids are terms used primarily in sociological contexts to describe children that spent a lot of time growing up in a culture that was not of their birthplace, family, or initial upbringing so there is no good reason not to have these. Love bombing... well, if you look at Flirty Fishing there is a strong argument for the "Family of Love" using this method. Religious prostitution, though it contains the word "prostitution", is usually used to describe "sacred whores" or "temple prostitutes" so I think is an appropriate description of Flirty fishing as well, they were having sex in order to win converts to the religion, often in exchange for money. Joie de Vivre 21:16, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

  • These are very flimsy connections. You wouldn't put a link to Adultery in the see also section of the Bill Clinton article... Sfacets 07:37, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
    • That they are "very flimsy connections" is simply an opinion and one I do not share (except for maybe Panton Hill). Children of members who joined this group are very much TCKs and MKs. FFing was very much a form of religious prostitution. There is an insane amount of opposition to "cults" and NRMs. Etc., etc. Everything I have just described is backed up by an almost endless list of sources. The content should, IMO, very much remain, as it is directly related to this group and this article about them. --Thorwald 03:23, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
I find user:SFacet's comments here to be inconsistent with his stance on a "See also" section in another article. He insisted on on including the term "Dharma" in the "See also" section of "Sahaja Yoga" despite there being no sources to support the connection. When I suggested there was no obvious connection he said there was one, but when I added the very text he had written about the connection he deleted that too.[2] He appeared to be arguing that any connection between the topic and the term was sufficient for inclusion. The discussion is at Talk:Sahaja Yoga/Archive 3#Dharma, and his relevant edits are here:[3][4][5]. How is this matter different? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:54, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Ooo look who's back. Stop taking my edits out of context (as usual). Sfacets 12:55, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, my comment to Template talk:Children of God provided context as to your more recent removal of content at the template. Joie de Vivre T 13:02, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
No, actually what Will Beback is attempting to do is undermine my proposal by taking one of my edits out of the context in which it was made. Sfacets 13:04, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
It was not "one" edit, it was several edits and a discussion. Please explain the difference between that case and this. How was the context different? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:47, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Not Without My Sister

The book, Not Without My Sister (ISBN 978-0-00-724808-7) discusses the Children of God from the viewpoint of three of its former followers. Should this be included in the Media section, or should a separate article be written for it and included in the Books category? --JB Adder | Talk 00:30, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

no not the way it was entended


Enslaved by the cult of sex...for 25 years By CELESTE JONES - More by this author »

Last updated at 10:51am on 13th July 2007

Comments (31)

Born into an evil cult, called the Children of God, sisters Celeste, Kristina and Juliana Jones were abused from the age of three. Torn from their parents, their childhood was dominated by the warped cult leader David Berg. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=468046&in_page_id=1879

  • Thank you for that, but I think the book mentioned in that article was already mentioned above. --59.154.24.148 04:13, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] i love wikipedia

this discussion page and article is so typical of wiki bull, ooh lets be oh so careful not to call a spade a spade because god forbid you offend anyone even if they are creepy kid touchers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.117.225.231 (talk) 06:50, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] River Phoenix quote

I'm not trying to defend the cult, but for the sake of accuracy: the way River is quoted makes it sound as if he had been sexually abused by an adult member, while what he really says is that he "made love" with other "kids"[6] and that he'd rather undo that. He doesn't connect it to the cult.--87.162.54.100 (talk) 02:15, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Here's the quote from Details magazine, from the scans you linked to above:
Is there anything you did at an early age that you wish you had waited for?
Yes—make love.
How old were you?
Four.
With whom? Another four-year-old?
Kids. But I've blocked it out. I was completely celibate from ten to fourteen. ...
River Phoenix was in the cult from age one or two (1972) until age six or seven (1977). I agree that the current mention in this article could be interpreted the wrong way. If no one else gets to it soon, I'll try to improve it. --Monger (talk) 04:34, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Train wreck

This article needs serious help. xfamily.org is not a reliable source and all material cited to that site should be removed. --Tom 15:17, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Um, why? What evidence can you provide that xFamily.org is "not a reliable source"? Also, where, specifically, does this article need "serious help"? It is easy to criticize, difficult to contribute. --Thorwald (talk) 06:47, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
It fails WP:RS per self published material, extremist, ect . Also, I don't have a problem editing, except that I probably do it too much :) Anyways, --Tom 15:11, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Your response tells me that you don't know much about xFamily.org. I just did a quick check on their 4600+ articles: Over 88% of them are direct publications of The Family International . . . verbatim. That is not "self published material", that is material of and by the group in question. Since this group is very secretive, xFamily.org is one of the only sources of information about this group. This group does not publish its internal documents. However, xFamily.org has obtained all internal documents published by this group from its beginning up until just a few years ago (see: http://pubs.xfamily.org/). It was also the first source of the photographs of their group's very secretive leaders. Call that a scoop, if you will. You also wrote that xFamily.org is "extremist"; please explain. You throw around criticisms, but can't seem to back any of them up. Anything you edit on this (main) article, I will closely watch. You will have to back anything you write up. --Thorwald (talk) 20:50, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I really hadn't planned on editing this article. I had removed alot of material from biographies that was sourced to xfamily.org since I still feel it fails to be a reliable source. Anyways, --Tom 21:05, 18 January 2008 (UTC)ps, the site is a Wiki?? Anybody can edit it, correct? So just as Wikipedia is not a reliable source, so to is this site. Do you have some agenda that should be revealed? --Tom 21:07, 18 January 2008 (UTC)pss No need to anwswer after seeing this. Thanks --Tom 21:10, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
No. Only the "Editors" of xFamily.org can edit its articles. You still have not provided any specific (or real) reasons as to why you feel xFamily.org fails to be a "reliable source". Anyway, of course I have an "agenda". I want Wikipedia to be the best source of information and when it can not, point to other reliable sources. I find this group (morbidly) interesting and that is why I am committed to this article and to its sources. On this subject, The Family International, I challenge you to find a more reliable and exhaustive source than xFamily.org. Don't try, you won't find one. --Thorwald (talk) 21:23, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Tom, when you say you've removed "alot of material from biographies that was sourced to xfamily.org," I assume you're referring to the similar "plagiarized art" sections you removed from articles about several artists including Julie Bell. That content referenced official Family publications, but in any case I do not think it was really relevant outside of the Children of God article, so I've restored it here (with some minor changes) but left it out elsewhere. Additionally, I agree with Thorwald that your accusations and criticisms here have not been helpful. Please cite specific problems. xFamily.org does not fit the WP:RS description of self-published sources or extremist sources, the latter being a particularly disingenuous accusation. As for your insinuation of uncovering some kind of hidden agenda in User:Thorwald's edits based on his edit count (or something...I'm not really sure what you were suggesting), please try to assume good faith. --Monger (talk) 19:56, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
If there are more/other sources for the plargiarized art business, can you please post them here? Anyways, --Tom 01:25, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Is your objection to the xFamily.org site the fact that it is running MediaWiki as its publishing platform (even though it is not an open wiki)? I ask because the Flash presentation and Post-It GN that were already cited in the content you have again removed offer dozens of additional references to Family publications. I do not feel the claim of plagiarized artwork is so profound that it requires more than references to pretty much all of the Family publications that discuss the situation. What more are you looking for? --Monger (talk) 02:26, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi Monger, I am looking for other sources (newspaper, book, magazine, ect) for the claim that somebody did something wrong, possibly criminal in nature, thats all. It seems that negative material should be particularly well sourced for this project. TIA --Tom 14:13, 21 January 2008 (UTC)