Talk:Childhood's End

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Contents 1 Movie 2 Model of Karellen 3 Pronunciation 4 Star trek 5 Austrailia or africa 6 Are your sure it is Australia? 7 Continent Question 8 Childhood's End in other media 9 merge 10 bat wings? 11 alternate opening 12 Tone? 13 retrieved from Talk:Karellen 14 Fair use rationale for Image:Childhood 68.jpg 15 Why? 16 2001: A Space Odyssey (film) and Childhood's End a purposefully obscured connection? 17 Earth: Final Conflict 18 Fair use rationale for Image:Childhood 68.jpg 19 Overmind "pure energy" ? 20 Plot summary 21 References?

[edit] Movie

The article states that a screenplay of the novel exists but it has yet to be produced. I have read somewhere on an Arthur C. Clarke fan site that there were two previous attempts to film it but they met with failure. However, how does anyone know that the screenplay is still being sold and traded and that Hillary Swank was once attached to the project? Does anyone have any sources for those claims?

Anyway, I hope that the film will eventually see the light of day. It is probably Clarke's best novel and it should not be overlooked. With Rendezvous with Rama heading into the studio, I guess anything is possible. -Suffor

[edit] Model of Karellen

Does anyone have a picture of that which is owned by that one movie producer? I'd kill to see that! -Suffor

[edit] Pronunciation

I know there is no official pronunciation, but how would you pronounce Karellen? I say (car 'ell en) or ('car ell en). It is my UNIX hostname so I realy ought to find out! Navaburo 04:55, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I have the same computer name: karellen.ipac.caltech.edu, where I am user waw. I have no idea about the correct pronunciation, I say ('Kair ell en) myself. Wwheaton (talk) 17:43, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I always pronounce it like "Cuh rel len".

[edit] Star trek

Hrm I seem to remember themes like this in startrek episodes though I cant weem to find them. The closest one I can find is Where_No_One_Has_Gone_Before_(TNG_episode) -Ravedave 04:24, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Journey's End (TNG episode) and The Chase (TNG episode) come to mind as possibilities. Tomer^talk 17:27, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Austrailia or africa

"One day, humanity's children start displaying telepathic and telekinetic abilities. These children soon become distant from their parents, and the Overlords quarantine all of them to the continent of Australia. " - I thought this was Africa. I don't have the book anymore can someone check for certain? -Ravedave 04:22, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

The book never specifies which continent, simply saying they have a continent of their own. The protagonist assumes it to be Australia.Navaburo 04:52, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Are your sure it is Australia?

I live in Australia. I have not read the book in five years, so must do so to familiarise myself with it User: jslasher, to confirm that "the end" takes place on our continent.

Would suggest that someone expand the article to include mention that the current asking price for the screenplay, written by Howard Koch, is over ten-times that which was paid out to A C Clarke shortly after the novel was first optioned. J S Lasher.

[edit] Continent Question

I've been re-reading the book, and it states that the children were given a continent of their own, but so far I have not been able to determine if that continent is named. I always thought it was South America, but that's a third option that was listed. I'm going to keep checking. Wyldkardde

So far the page has listed Africa, S America, and Australia, so it might vary by revision of the book. If you do find it specifically listed please post your edition & pg #. -Ravedave

The continent is never named, but it is briefly described in Chapter 23 as appropriate for about 300 million people, and a place of isolation. Thus one can infer Australia although it's never stated (or important). Modus Vivendi 00:23, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

page 194 of my edition (end of chapter 22). Jan is coming home to Earth and is surprised to see that there are no lights. "The only continent visible was Australia, a darker mist in the atmospheric haze along the limb of the planet". It doesn't say the he actually lands on Australia, however. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.205.181.73 (talk) 15:24, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Childhood's End in other media

Reading through this section, I notice a lot of "...Possibly inspired by..., May have been... Uncertain if... etc" It seems that unless a direct parellel can be drawn, or we have a source specifying that a piece of Media was inspired by this novel, it should be removed, in the interest of a more encyclopedic wiki.

For example, lets look at the Starcraft reference. The Overmind of the Zerg seems in no way related to that of the novel. If there is a likeness beyond name, I don't see it. The Overlords in Starcraft bear no resemblance beyond name to those in the novel. The Xel'naga actively participated in the evolution of the Zerg and Protoss, whereas the Overlords in the novel came to observe the ascendance of the Human race. Again, I don't see how the game draws from the book. The only thing vaguely similar is the emerging psionic abilities of humanity, but that is a theme common in alot of fiction so we can hardly place the inspiration here.

I'm not seeing how Starcraft draws anything from the novel. The same goes for several other entries in the section. I'd like some other opinions before someone goes through and deletes information though.--204.76.128.217 12:00, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

without saying anything about starcraft which i've never played -- i thought the overlords were here to kind of shephard us into our ascendance, make sure we don't kill ourselves in the meantime. that's not participating in the evolution itself, but they are more than observers. --dan 23:03, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] merge

i really think the karellen article should be merged in here with some major snipping. it is primarily made up of quotes detailing the plot, but not important to the character itself. i've been talking about this on Talk:Karellen as well. --dan 23:11, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

If you merge the article, you don’t have to snip it. The Wikipedia policy is simply to put the quotations in a “Wikiquote” icon. By the way, I only work on Wikipedia on Sundays. —Cesar Tort 23:39, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I support the merge. Besides, we don't really need long quotes when we have Wikiquote for that. --Kjoonlee 06:08, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

so that's 2 for and 1 against, so far. where is everyone? this is a good book, more people should stroll by! --dan 08:07, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Numbers are not insignifant, but IMHO reasons are vastly more important when it comes to wiki discussions. We don't have any good reasons why we need a separate article on Karellen, I think. --Kjoonlee 08:56, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

i've never done a merge, i have no idea how any of this works. --dan 23:30, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

When I originally wrote the Karellen article, I specifically tried to keep the information to the character in the book because I felt that the character was important enough to generate an article. Since I wrote it, this has become another Childhoods End article more than a character article. In it's current form, I agree, it should be merged, but in it's original form, it is a separate article and there are many articles for characters in books. Either merge it, or revert it and move the information that should be in the Childhood's End article there. Don't just leave it in it's current form. --Dan 19 September 2006

I have merged the Karellen article into this one. It had very little potential for expansion. As a good, concise, encyclopedic article it will probably only ever achieve stub status. Almost every quote that was on the page before is now in Wikiquote’s page on Childhood’s End. (By the way, that page needs some help cleaning up and formatting if anyone is interested) I have implemented a selective paste merger and formatted the information that was in the ‘Key Plot Events and Twists’ section. It is now in the plot summary of Childhood’s End. If you don’t think this is sufficient material on him, perhaps a separate section within the Childhood’s End article will be good. If you disagree with any of the actions I’ve taken regarding the Karellen article, please leave a message here or on my talk page. We can always work out a good article that deserves to stand on its own, but since Karellen has needed cleanup and merging for quite a while, I thought I would just be bold. Lebroyl 23:33, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] bat wings?

"The song "A Childlike Faith in Childhood's End" by Van der Graaf Generator was inspired by the novel (but no bat-wings for Peter Hammill)." does anyone know what that last bit means? it sounds like an inside joke but it could be refering to something i don't know about (since i don't know the band). --dan 19:28, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

It was referring to Peter Gabriel's bat winged costume for "Watcher of the Skies"

[edit] alternate opening

the book mentions that there is an alternate opening in the new version. But the plot synopsis gives no illumination about the alternate version. This should be fixed, but I have not read the new version. Kit O'Connell (Todfox: user / talk / contribs) 10:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tone?

I have never read Childhood's End. In reading this article, I would like some sense of the author's tone with regards to the topic. Is this a hopeful novel, envisioning the evolution of mankind into the Overmind as a Good Thing? Is it a Twilight Zone-esque "To Serve Man" horror novel where the final destination is sprung out on the reader in a cautionary way? Or is it something else? Applejuicefool 15:10, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

The narration style is third person omniscient and nonbiased. The narrator refrains from making value judgements about the assimilation into the Overmind, aside from noting that they it is a superior entity. The Overlords actually note at one point that the logical thing to do in the face of the inevitable is to simply accept it.--Sludge 01:17, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Ditto the narration style, but Clarke is an optimist IMHO, and the book left me in a rather euphoric state after reading, so i would say it is hopeful! Navaburo 04:51, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I have always found the book very moving, I think in part because of the tension between its tragic (the end of humankind) and its fulfilling (the birth of something wonderful: our children, who will go forth to do and be what we cannot, nor even fully comprehend) aspects. One edition I have purchased describes it as a very dark vision, but I think it is much richer than that. It does seem useful to put something on this issue into the article, but I suppose this would require an external reference to support any judgments rendered? I agree that Clarke is an optimist, yet it is remarkable how many of his short stories kill off humankind: "History Lesson", "No Morning After", and several others, though sometimes with a humorous twist, as if we are not really all that important. Wwheaton (talk) 00:36, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

It's the kind of book that is depressing if you are happy and uplifting if you are depressed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.205.181.73 (talk) 15:26, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] retrieved from Talk:Karellen

Sorry about this guys. The discussion to merge had been quiet for a few months after most agreed on a merge, so in accordance with policy on merging, I was OK. I made sure to save all information from the page that was relevant as an encyclopedic article, and all of the quotes to Wikiquote. Anything that wasn't saved was repetitive with the other stuff in Childhood's End, or did not necessarily belong in an article. It is still in the history section for referring back to if you need to. We can always still discuss changes or bringing back the article if we really rework it. Lebroyl 16:16, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I was talking about what another editor had written above:

"I really want to keep this article about the character. —Wyldkardde 15:54, 28 September 2006 (UTC)"

He was talking of the incarnation of this article before my 30 July 2006 copyedits: [1] —Cesar Tort 02:30, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Childhood 68.jpg

Image:Childhood 68.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 20:31, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why?

Is it ever explained in the book why the further evolution is even desirable? From what I can understand, it involves giving up freedom and creativity, some sort of global extermination of civilization and life, and eventually vast social strife. The thing with the parents is odd too - why, specifically, would the parents try to kill their children?

This short of stuff should be at the least explained with Karellen, as to why, after seeing what happens to the other species, the Overlords actually want to do this to themselves. If it's not, then I'd be highly surprised.KrytenKoro 07:42, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Karellen stated that because of the children's evolving state, their parents would no longer see them as human children but aliens. UPDATE - Perhaps psychotic religious people would think they are "of the devil"? Ha ha! But then again, the Overlords helped desecrate religion but who knows. Suffor

...that's a pretty pathetic reason. Anyway...what about the reason why Karellen wanted to evolve?KrytenKoro 05:00, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

It isn't explained clearly why Karellen wants to evolve but there are hints that he does desire the evolution. In his last speech to humanity, his last words are "We will always envy you" which shows the Overlords are envious of humanity being chosen by the Overmind and not themselves. I guess they feel cheated. I would feel cheated too if I was under servitude for someone and didn't get anything in return despite what I had done for them. At the very end when Karellen is looking back towards the Solar System, the narrator states clearly Karellen is full of sadness and that his sadness is with only his race. That is a definite give away that he is devastated that he and his race are constrained to their current forms. However, it is also debatable if the Overlords indeed do want the evolution. This is implied from when Rashaverak tells Jan that the arrangement his race has with the Overmind has its own advantages and that no creature of intelligence would dare not deny the inevitable. Before it says Karellen is in a depressed state, the narrator does say that Karellen knows his race will carry on and realizes that their individuality will forever be theirs and that they won't "lose their souls". Suffor

There is a deep issue here about purpose and meaning, which I suspect each reader must answer for themselves. Evolution to higher levels of organization seems to be a common, even central, theme in the history of life on Earth as we understand it. The question of the intrinsic value of individuality is much less clear and more difficult, in my opinion. We are, after all, super-organisms ourselves, composed of cells which have surrendered their individuality to the community. Is it tragic or totalitarian that eons ago our single-celled ancestors gave up their freedom and chose instead to cooperate in this way? None of us, now, campaign for "Lymphocytes Lib" (I believe we generally call it leukemia). But at homo sapiens's  level of organization, the tension between the interests of the community and the interests of the individual is central and unavoidable, and may even be the Core Issue in our ongoing cultural, ethical, religious, literary, and philosophical debates. Personally, I feel my loyalty is probably really to the process by which Life has evolved (so many of us think) from something simple and primitive into something astonishingly rich. complex, and beautiful -- rather than to any particular answer, be it amoeba, rose, beehive, octopus, hummingbird, human, or perhaps something like the Overmind. That it raises the issue in such a powerful and provocative way is one of the reasons I think Childhood's End  is such an important book. I have no idea how to make this point in the article itself without major research into the critical literature; is it even consistent with Wiki's rules to make it here?! Wwheaton (talk) 01:31, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 2001: A Space Odyssey (film) and Childhood's End a purposefully obscured connection?

The documentaries on Stanley Kubrick - Warner Home Video Directors Series 2001 Disk 2 got me to thinking. Very few SF writers are interviewed. Well Clarke is there, being a little coy some of the time.

Anyway that Big Question about what the hell is the film and ending about comes up many times. (I mean aside from the other major story line about HAL, which actually ties to the film's base story.)

I see a strong connection between 2001 and Childhoods End, but am reluctant to place this opinion on the main page about the novel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Albert.a.jackson (talk • contribs) 18:50, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree, and even think Childhood's End  is almost an essential prerequisite to understanding 2001. The movie has HAL as its one additional essential element, which looms more and more important with the developments in computers and information technology of the half century since CE was written. Like you, I see no way to put this idea into the article itself without first establishing it as non-original by finding some reliable external source. Wwheaton (talk) 01:44, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, I tried! That is, I tried lately to at least add some words to the 2001: A Space Odyssey (film) article to the effect that the novel contains considerable explanation of a movie that is not exactly transparent taken by itself. But two other editors rushed in to revert, claiming it violated WP:NOR, even though I referenced it to the novel, thinking Clarke is surely a reliable source.... Well, Clarke didn't explicitly say their meanings were related, so apparently I can't either, at least not here. Sheesh!

Of course it is yet a further step from the movie "2001" to Childhood's End, but I thought establishing the connection between the film & novel versions should be a slam dunk, and a step in the right direction. I do strongly recommend that anyone who was moved by "2001" but at all puzzled should read both books, CE & "2001".Wwheaton (talk) 06:55, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, I have tried again, this time by writing an intro section to Interpretations of 2001: A Space Odyssey simply pointing out the obvious, that the 2001 book and film are closely related, hoping to establish that at least without violating WP:NOR. Let's see if it flies. If anyone knows a good third-party reference supporting the fundamental parallelism between the two, it would help to put it in or mention it here. I fear it is common knowledge, too obvious to be publishable, but it must appear incidentally in some secondary critical literature. My impression is that at least some of the folks who have written on "the meaning of 2001" (almost always meaning the movie version, I claim) have not actually read the novel version, let alone Childhood's End. I write about this here because it seems important to the interpretation of Clarke's fiction, of which I think CE is key. Wwheaton (talk) 17:35, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks to the efforts of several (Dreadstar in particular), we now have a completely revised article Interpretations of 2001: A Space Odyssey in place. I hope you will agree it is a vast improvement over preceding versions, and I think relevant to CE, though good external sources for the underlying linkage between the two would be welcome. Due to a running dispute, the article is currently protected, but comments, suggestions, and constructive criticism on the talk page are possible and most welcome as we try to establish consensus among other interested Wiki editors. Cheers, Bill Wwheaton (talk) 17:24, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

This is a reconsideration of what I had written before. One has to watch all the supplementary material on the Warner special edition of Kubrick's films, and we find out something from Christiana Kubrick we already knew:...... Kubrick had read most of the import prose SF of the 1950's thus by in inference Childhood's End: CHILDHOOD'S END and 2001:A SPACE ODYSSEY : Clarke was decidedly influenced by H.G. Wells and Olaf Stapleton. Clarke wrote and published CHILDHOODS END in the mid 1950's. As Heywood Floyd first stroked the Monolith on the Moon, the idea presents itself ..... is this is some kind of abstract re-interpretation' of BIG THINKS about advanced alien civilizations by way of Clarke's Childhoods End? ( Clarke's "The Sentinel" is really only a hook to hang the Monolith on.) It appears now Kubrick was throughly familiar with modern prose science fiction and must have read CHILDHOOD'S END. The ending of film could be interpreted as a connection to Karellen/Overmind/Rashaverak of CHILDHOOD'S END all super concentrated and contracted by Kubrick into the Star Child. The ending of 2001 can be interpreted as an abstracted-précis non-literal translation of Childhood's End. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childhood%27s_End

But if I recall, Clarke's 2001 Dairy (I believe it is in "Lost Worlds", and excerpted on the web) indicates Kubrick fist heard of Clarke from one of his friends or co-workers, as a possible collaborator on "The great Science fiction movie" he wanted to make. The guy said Clarke was "a recluse living in a tree in Sri Lanka", or words to that effect. This suggests Kubrick must not have been very familiar with him or his work. Wwheaton (talk) 20:02, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Earth: Final Conflict

Couldn't Earth: Final Conflict be said to be inspired by this Childhood's End? --69.255.17.40 (talk) 07:38, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Not unless you have valid references that state it (ie in an interview with the writers of Earth: Final Conflict).

Supersquid (talk) 16:08, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Childhood 68.jpg

Image:Childhood 68.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 21:19, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Overmind "pure energy" ?

Can anyone document the claim in the current article that the Overmind is supposed to consist of "pure energy"? I think this is not stated in the novel text, and am dubious that it is warranted otherwise. Physically, I do not know what it means, though it might perhaps refer to bosonic fields that do not obey the Exclusion Principle. The possibility of the existence of another "spiritual" realm, entirely different than any known to contemporary physics, cannot be denied, and if so the Overmind might have some relation to it; yet borrowing our term "energy" to describe it seems inappropriate except perhaps metaphorically, and I doubt Clarke would have done it except perhaps very informally. Thanks, Wwheaton (talk) 01:38, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

At one point, Karellen says the Overmind had "left the tyranny of matter". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.122.73.114 (talk) 04:05, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Maybe; though I still feel uneasy about asserting that "anything not matter" is necessarily "pure energy" by default. In particular I am thinking of information, which seems essential to mind as I understand the concept. (Is there a necessary quantitative relationship between information and energy? The entropy of a black hole, and thus I suppose[?] its total information content, is believed proportional to the area of its event horizon, which is at least related to its mass and total energy.)

I guess, returning to relevance to the article, I would propose that it just say the Overmind is non-material, or something of that kind. Wwheaton (talk) 18:14, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

See the Holographic principle, re the above question about energy and information. Wwheaton (talk) 18:24, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I have dropped the "pure energy" description of the Overmind, and substituted the wording, "freed from the limitations of ordinary matter", which I think is closer to Clarke's own words quoted above by 70.122.73.114 (talk) as, "left the tyranny of matter". I hope this is satisfactory, but take a look. Wwheaton (talk) 12:27, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Some more information on the physics of matter vs energy may be found at Matter. Wwheaton (talk) 14:27, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Plot summary

After the change noted above, I also worked over the first few paragraphs of this section, which I thought lacked coherence and needed some re-balancing of emphasis and general re-organization. Some of this spilled back into the introductory paragraph, which has a modified lead "about" sentence, and re-orders the publication and version history information. Wwheaton (talk) 12:33, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] References?

I am a little surprised that the current article includes no references at all. This one [2] is a commercial student study guide. It gives a fairly useful and detailed summary of plot, characters, etc. Nevertheless I think some of their interpretive statements are problematic. (This may be the origin of the "pure energy" description of the Overmind, which I still consider a doubtful extrapolation, based on progress in physics since 1953. Or, perhaps they got it from the earlier text of our article here?)

Anyhow, my real question is whether it is acceptable to include this link as a reference on the article page. It could be considered spam I guess (though the on-line version can be read for free), but a book is a commercial product too, and would be OK I assume. I will try to do some study of the relevant Wiki policies, but some of you may know already. Wwheaton (talk) 16:04, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Childhood's End.