Talk:Childfree

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This article seems to suggest that there is a strong childfree organization; while many people without children aren't actually involved in any relevant subculture. Also, it seems to suggest a strong prejudice against the childfree which may be overstated. Citizen Premier 04:22, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Yeah I have to agree with you. This article is in major need of a reworking. James xeno 01:22, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't see how the article you cite suggests a "strong childfree organization." The author mentions a few online message boards, along with No Kidding, which is merely a social organization, not a political one. Please explain your assertion that "prejudice against the childfree may be overstated." Does this come from personal experience or academic research?

Contents 1 Qualms about "Statistics and Research" 2 External links 3 "childfree choice" misplaces emphasis 4 Sour Grapes? 5 Opinion??? 6 Motivation 7 Organization 8 ChildFree vocabulary 9 Editing 10 External Links 11 NPOV Statement and GLBT involovement issue 12 Childfree slang 13 Referencing 14 Weasel Words and NPOV/Citations 15 Economic issues 16 A very poor article 17 Merger proposed (Kidding Aside) 18 US-centric and statistics section 19 Overemphasis on Christian views 20 Political activism

[edit] Qualms about "Statistics and Research"

I do agree that the "childfree" group may warrant some study, but the information given by the links under "Statistics and Research" is meager. It is relatively easy to carry out sociological research about the _childless_, but considerably more difficult to reach real insights about the more elusive group of the _childfree_ (as defined in this wikipedia entry). (1) <<David Foot concluded that the female’s education is the most important determinant of fertility. The higher the education, the less likely for her to bear children.>> Here it is rather difficult to disentangle cause and effect, and in the interview cited Foot does not address this issue. Secondly, he appears to refer to studies about the childless, which is not the real group of "childfree".

On that point, education is unlikely to reduce biological fertility, so any effect would surely be due to reduced desire to procreate, and access to family planning. --Slashme 17:02, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

No, the point about cause and effect is still apt - it could be that biological infertility results in higher education... 151.203.243.152 15:23, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

(2) <<A statistical survey of the childfree found that common reasons for the choice to be childfree included not wanting to sacrifice privacy/personal space and time for children; having no compelling reason to have children; actively not wanting children around; being perfectly content with pets; and seeing the effects of children on family/friends. >> The survey fails in not exposing the interviewed to the crucial question "if you find a wonderful partner who is eager to have a child, would you want to have a child?". Without such a litmus test question, the survey group is too ill-defined, and the tentative conclusions reached remain utterly tentative. Slavatrudu 16:42, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

How does not asking a certain question make the group "ill defined"? All the study has to address is if people decide not to have children, why they make that decision. It doesn't have to address hypothetical situations to reach useful conclusions. To brand it as "utterly tentative" is unreasonable. Unless you have some better research, let's stick with what we have. --Slashme 17:02, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it does ask that question. Maybe you should read the study before criticising it.

"( )Partner/Spouse doesn't want children"

Choosing to include those who decide to remain with a partner is academically sound, as is including people who choose not to have children to further their career. It is a question of motivation, not of how 'childfree' they are. The group is well-defined - it is people who have made the decision not to parent. Maybe it doesn't fit *your* definition, but that doesn't make the research questionable. If you want to exclude the subgroup that would be persuaded to change their mind on that single factor, go do your own study.-66.28.217.228 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Prejudice against childfree does exist, I have experienced it. However, this may not be enough for wikipedia standard. I will read a few childfree books and then provide more depth in this area. Mjm1964 01:25, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Prejudice against the childfree is very strong in our culture-- with women especially who choose not to have children receiving an extra serving of judgement for committing the sin of not rejecting what many consider to be their "natural" role. There is a heavy pressure to have children, parents receive preferential treatment in many workplaces, public policy becoming increasingly pro-natalist etc. Is this enough for Wikipedia? Probably not, since nobody is actually burning us at the stake, but please don't try to tell me that there is not significant prejudice. It just isn't true. 38.2.108.125 20:30, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I too have experienced prejudice for not wanting to have children. Women with out the "maternal instinct" seem to be singled out as freaks, especially in the Midwest. I think it is entirely appropriate for this article to exist, whether or not there is a movement or organization associated with it. It exists as a lifestyle choice. Mapetite526 15:54, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I have removed material from the "World childfree Association" section because 1) this was not encyclopic in nature, rather promotional 2) it was basically a copy and paste from the associated website, with "we" changed to "they" Mjm1964 11:03, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] External links

• Stop Terrible Human Over Population Disasters (eCards website to limit human population growth)
• WiseArt Cybernetics (On-line artistic slideshow about limiting human population growth)

Hallo Joyous! I have a question about your message: You ask me not to add inappropriate external links to wikipedia. When I compare the 2 links I added to other existing external links on certain webpages, I see that the 'appropriate' links (i.e the ones you leave alone), are also links to external -third party- organisations, such as our European organisation (STHOPD) is too. Our non-profit organisation works with volunteers and stands for certain principles which are similar to the 'appropriate' organisations on the webpages concerned, such as: Decreasing human overpopulation in an ethical way, having no children, warnings about the worldwide consequences of overpopulation such as the destruction of ecosystems. Please explain to me what would make our links appropriate. Friendly regards, 213.84.166.83 18:26, 21 January 2007 (UTC) MetaMouse.

Answered on your talk page. Joyous! | Talk 18:36, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "childfree choice" misplaces emphasis

I think that it is important for the entry for “childfree” to address the portion of childfree people who feel that being without children is not as much of a conscious decision not have children, but rather a consequece of other choices. Many people who identify as intentionally childless see there status as less of a choice and more of a result of their lifestyle. Implying someone is childless by choice misplaces the emphasis and misrepresents what is chosen. “Women are expected to explain a negative occurrence, a negative choice. The absense of motherhood becomes the point of focus rather than the many prior postive choices (Morrell 50).”

Morell, Carolyn (1994). Unwomanly Conduct: The Challenges of Intentional Childlessness. Routledge, New York.

---

Those people who are childless by circumstance (ie infertility, running out of time etc) are different than childless by choice ("childfree"). Childless by circumstance is a subset of childless, childless by choice is a subset as well. Childfree is usually defined as those who have chosen to not have children. Childless (or childlessness) will hopefully get its own page, and will refer to both sets of people.

---

Mjm1964 02:08, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC) for above comments.

I am adding an article titled "Childless" and would love to have help editing it to explain all three types of childlessness, 1) by conscious choice, 2) by circumstance, 3) by infertility or other health problems that would prevent having children (assuming they were not by choice).Mapetite526 20:45, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sour Grapes?

Blatantly POV. (a) does not explain how tax/transfers balance between parents and childfree are either unfair or economically sound.

(b) does not explain why population is the lead factor that causes pollution or natural resource depletion.

(c) draws a link between religion, misogyny and the far right without any elaboration, and does not consider the most simple reason why governments pay parents - to subsidise the bringing into the world of a new generation of workers and taxpayers to support the current generation.

This write up gives me the idea that the Childfree "movement" is just comprised of unlucky, unpartnered spinsters.

Sounds like you have a bad case of sour grapes, actually. "Unlucky, unpartnered spinsters" may be your opinion, but it is not based upon actual demographics or facts. Actually a significant number of couples have chosen not to have children-- and this number has increased significantly in the past several decades. For some it is a matter of economics (children are expensive), for others a matter of politics (the world is overpopulated), etc. For even more though it is because they just don't want children, and luckily we live in a world where it is possible to choose not to have children if that is what one wants. Funny isn't it? Universally when people have a real CHOICE, they choose to have few children rather than more, and often choose to have none at all.

As for the "simple reason why governments pay parents" that you cite: it's a myth, bro. If an economy is strong, immigration will keep it going. No government needs to pay parents to have children in order to keep their economy going-- such economic decisions are usually based upon ethnocentrism and xenophobia. And again, it begs the question: if the desire to have lots of children is so innate and natural, why would any government need to "pay" parents? You see how you swallow your own tail? 38.2.108.125 20:39, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

You should probably do a little more reading before speaking up, in particular consider Western Europe and *Japan*. There have been numerous news reports in recent years about the "phenomenon" of "selfish young people" either living at home or otherwise going about their lives and not making babies. --Belg4mit 17:14, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Interesting that you didn't sign your statements and then referred to women who don't want children as "unlucky, unpartnered spinsters." Does that refer to the men who don't want children as well? Mapetite526 15:53, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I find the pollution angle very self-evident. What if, tomorrow, the human race was suddenly decimated to less than 1 million individuals. How much pollution would remain? Virtually none; the air would be clean, the waterways clean, the landscape empty oh humans w/ a swift repopulation of forests & animals. ----- It is self-evident that fewer humans == less pollution. - Theaveng 17:38, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Opinion???

"Just don't want them; why should any other explanation be needed?" I found this comment to be un-encyclopedic.

It described one of the reasons an adult may not want to have children.

I will thus delete this comment.

Andyqaz 04:33, 15 November 2005 (UTC)Andyqaz

I agree, it's anyway covered under "lack of biological urges to procreate" --Slashme 05:10, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello, one more reason: I think it people can also question whether or not they have right to give life to someone else, i. e. to make decision for someone else. You can never ask if this new being actually wants to be given the life. In addition to it, with giving a life, you always give your child life with a death at the end of his or her life. (unsigned comment)

Good point. I have added that to the list of reasons. I have also re-arranged the list, so that we have a new topic to argue about, namely categorization ;-) I left the line about OCD and attachment theory in, but I don't quite get it. Can someone re-word it so that it is a bit more explanatory? --Slashme 07:31, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Motivation

The "Female increases opportunity in a more prestigious or traditionally male job." reason under the Motivation section is worded confusingly. What exactly is it trying to say? Females who are working in a traditionally male job, who choose to be childfree so that they can have a competitive edge? 66.92.144.74 00:27, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Organization

I moved Organizations closer to the bottom, to conform with most other Wikipedia pages. Captain Jackson 07:32, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ChildFree vocabulary

Since we have a link to the "lexicon of spawn," is it really necessary to have the massive list of slang listed here? Joyous | Talk 00:25, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

• If there are no objections, I'm going to remove the list of slang. It's not encyclopedic, and there's a list on a site in the external links, so it's not totally lost. Joyous | Talk 02:53, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Don't think the whole list needs to go. I am quite familiar with a few of the terms and not so familiar with others. Maybe someone just thought a couple up. I think a short list of the most commonly used terms would be appropriate. I think attitudes of the more militant childfree are appropriate for the context of the article.Montco 03:13, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Which ones do you see as the most common? I don't think the list should be longer than the top 10 or so. Otherwise, every clever CFer will feel the need to come here and add their newest creations. Joyous | Talk 03:03, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Breeder, moo, duh, sprog are gimmes. some of them like runt, DINK and rugrat are not exclusive to childfree persons and can probably go right away. Other than that I would think that a quick search of a.s.c.f could turn up the least commonly used words and those could be fried. I agree that anytime you have a list of some sort, you are asking for trouble to some extent. But there have to be enough childfree folks here to have a reasonable discussion on what should be included.Montco 03:13, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Remove it, I absolutely can't stand the notion of 'childfree' regardless but this is just a long list of petty insults; it doesn't belong on an encylopedia michael ^talk 03:15, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

You may not like the notion of childfree, but its usage by reputable news outlets such as the BBC and Knight Ridder justifies it as an recognized "subculture". As for the list, one person's petty insults are pretty common vernacular on childfree message boards and newsgroups. The most common out there are certainly notable and illustrative of the attitude of childfree individuals towards parents. That attitude is significant to the article. I myself have argued in the past that, without standards, a list can get out of hand. Wikipedia is not stuff that someone thought up at happy hour. And as such. lesser known terms should be pulled in favor of some of the most common. Montco 03:42, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

As much as wikipedia is not censored, its an encylopedia and some things just don't belong. I've looked and we don't have a list of 'childish insults' or something similar - why does this long list of slander belong? That's all it really is. I'm sure everyone who isn't a 'childfree' will think much more favourably of the 'life-choice' when they read that list. michael ^talk 03:50, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

List of ethnic slurs. And if the list was an article in and of itself, you're right it would be unencyclopedic. If you read my prior post rather than engage in this rampant emotionalism over your 'life-choice' you would understand why I think a concise list of well used "insults" (if you choose to put it that way) does belong in the article.

Good luck on your article, apologies if I appeared that way. I will intervene no more, I wish you all the best with it. michael ^talk 06:37, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

No, it's getting to the stage where it's little more than self indulgent. I'd suggest slimming down, at least, to:

• Anklebiter: a child
• BNP: "Breeder, Not Parent"; a "breeder" in the specific sense (see below).
• "Baby rabies": Obsession with having or conceiving a child.
• Breed: to have children.
• Breeder: Generally, someone who has, or intends to have, children. Is often used in a more specific sense to refer to obnoxious parents (in contrast with "parent", below).
• Child-free: besides above, a place and time where no children are permitted.
• Childless: A person who has no children through circumstances not of their own choosing.
• Diaperwhipped: A term for parents who are controlled by their child(ren)'s every whim.
• DINKs "Double income no kids;" couple with no children, both of whom are employed, thereby enabling them to maintain a high standard of living.
• Duh/duhddy: A term for a father with bad parenting skills.
• Freaklitter: A large multiple birth caused by misuse of fertility drugs. Sometimes known as fuctuplets or a litter.
• Free range child: An unsupervised child, usually one who is not staying put or who is wreaking havoc in public.
• Fuck-trophy: A child, especially one that is shown around by a parent as evidence of their achievements in the fertility arena.
• Fussing quietly: (ironic) A child's screaming at the top of his/her lungs.
• Handler: a parent
• Kinderspullen/kindercrap: Unsightly paraphernalia associated with babies & children, such as large plastic toys, wading pools, forts in the garden, LEGOs on the living room carpet, and/or pastel bags bursting with baby products packed for any trip further than a block.
• Moo/moomie: A term for a mother with bad parenting skills. Comes from the acronym MOO--Mother Obsessed with Offspring. Sometimes used for any mother.
• Parent: One with children who behaves in a non-obnoxious manner regarding their children, and who is considered to have brought up those children well. (Some Childfree persons do not make the distinction between this and "breeder", above.)
• PNB: "Parent, Not Breeder"; a "parent" (see above).
• Snipped: Sterilized.
• S-MOO-V: A massive sport-utility vehicle filled with baby paraphernalia, old drive-through food, or abandoned toys, driven erratically by a parent focusing more attention on the children in the back than the road all around him/her.
• Stork spot: Parking space reserved for pregnant women or for parents accompanying children.
• SUV stroller: A large, unwieldy, ridiculously tricked-out pram. Usually uncollapsable and pushed with unthinking gusto, as if it were an assault vehicle.
• Thinker: Acronym for Two High Incomes, No Kids, Early Retirement (childfree couple)

Even a few of them don't need to be there.ALR 21:01, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

ALR, don't have a problem with your suggestion. i agree that its still too much. I think the following off your list can go.

• Handler
• Fussing quietly
• Kinderspullen/kindercrap
• Snipped (not exclusive to child free)
• breed and breeder can be consolidated
• Thinker and DINK can be condolidated but again not exclusively childfree slang.

Montco 00:10, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that DINK does not originate with childfree, but is instead a marketing term, referring to a specific target market. Also not that DINK can be interpreted as slightly perjorative, given other definitions of dink, thus Thinker--Belg4mit 17:26, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I know this has been debated before, but really... how encyclopaedic is this inclusion of derrogatory terms? Can we not at least have a separate page for them, a la "ethnic slurs"? why should this information be included in the core article? I doubt that the gay rights or civil rights pages have lists of derrogatory terms for straights and whites. I think that the continued inclusion of such terms in the core article constitutes hide-bound conservatism due to the fact that the terms were present prior to the last couple of re-thinks. They certainly pre-date the inclusion of all the political stuff and now actively serve to damage the community the article is describing by making the childfree look like raving child-haters straight off the bat to any journalist or curious lay person who wanders onto the page by accident. Mr. Analytical 16:44, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the list and replaced it with a short paragraph. A long unreferenced list like that seems to attract fringe entries. Also, we have a link to the "Lexicon of Spawn" which has every possible slang term, and then some. Joyous | Talk 13:35, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I would think that this kind of slang is used by a minority of childfree people. Can we make it clearer that not all childfree people are anti-child? I think there is a difference. I'm not against other people having children just because I don't want them myself. Mapetite526 15:53, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I think most of these terms are or were indigenous to news:alt.support.childfree and attribution should be to that newsgroup, if anywhere. There is a long list of slang terms but to list them all would require that they be given their own article - the main Childfree article already being rather lengthy by now. --carlb 14:54, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Editing

I've tried to slim down the text, get rid of the duplication that's been added line by line with little thought for integration. I'm concerned that little of this is verifiable and now that it's tighter I'll likely go through and ask for citations of a lot of it.ALR 21:03, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

The section of external links is becoming excessive, based on WP:EL I would suggest it needs slimmed down. In particular Wikipedia should not link to forum or blog sites so I would propose to weed all of them out. In terms of notability I see only a couple of the links being justified. Any other thoughts on that?ALR 17:52, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

• I agree, and would be happy to see the forum and blog sites removed. Joyous | Talk 19:25, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I suggest the following links only:

• Childfree.net
• ChildfreebyChoice.com
• Kidding Aside - The British Childfree Association
• Childfree and the Media
• The World Childfree Association

These should probably be referenced in the text, otherwise removed.

• Unholy Rebellion of the Childless
• [1] The U.S. Census Bureau - Is Childlessness Among American Women on the Rise* [2] "Fertility of American Women" (U.S. Census Bureau)

The following are questionable in terms of usefulness and should be removed

• [3] A Lexicon of Spawn - a list of terminology found on alt.childfree
• The Childfree Wiki - A Wiki-based website with information about being childfree and resources for the childfree (still in development)
• Moral Childfree--A perspective on the morality of not bringing people into a place where the only certain thing is death.
• The Population Institute - An international, educational, non-profit organization that seeks to reduce excessive population growth.
• The Voluntary Human Extinction Movement.

ALR 11:54, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, in the absence of any other comment I'll slim down the links.ALR 06:58, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for cleaning out the links. It was long overdue. —Veyklevar 04:40, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Kidding Aside has its own article, so should be an internal link. --66.102.80.239 01:13, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

---

Hello all, I added a link to Purple Women(TM), a project for, by and about childfree women of my conception -- before I read this discussion. The team blog associated with the project has multiple contributors from various nationalities and parts of North America. It is more like an online magazine than a personal journal. It is topical and timely. We have reviewed several books on the subject of childfree and are keeping tabs of related issues from media portrayals to workplace conflicts.

I can understand not wanting to include personal blogs, but blogs are not all alike. If it is not possible to discriminate personal blogs from content-focused blogs, would you instead consider a link to the the official Purple Women website: [4]? It introduces the book that will be based on the online survey currently underway.

It has been noted correctly that we, the childfree, as a group are growing in numbers, yet are not politically organized nor united as a group. Motivations and situations can really vary as do religious and political outlook, yet we are at the center of economic if not moral controversy. Purple Women is more than a blog and more than a book in the making, it is a new way of connecting and forming community via the internet. For this reason, I hope you will allow a link to us.

I also added an excellent scholarly book by a clicinal psychologist Mardy Ireland in the appropriate section.

Many thanks for creating this page.

--Teritith 22:48, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

teritith 6:33, 11 May 2006

I think we have too many external links as it is, despite recent cleaning. Wikipedia is not a link repository or a web directory, and the number of people (even with the best of intentions) attempting to turn it into one is growing out of control. —Veyklevar 04:55, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

If a collective blog is sufficiently notable, such as Samizdata then it could be mentioned in its own right, but WP:EL is pretty clear. The main thrust of the guidance is that external links should really be discussed, it's not a question of just becoming a directory. You could add something to the sectio on organisations, but there would need to be something distinctive about PW for that as well.ALR 07:17, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

---

Okay, got it. I will get familiar with the Wikipedia External Links policy and when my book is published...I'll be baaaaack! --Teritith 13:44, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

---

I have cleaned the links further, removing a blog, a dead site, etc. I have however re-added VHEMT as I feel that they are exceptionally relevant, providing both a strongly environmental bend on the concept compared to the other resources, and a most thorough discussion and exhaustive site vis a vis other childfree sites. It seems to me that they were removed simply because of the name. --Belg4mit 16:45, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Removed VHEMT from EL after noting the x-ref to local entry in See Also. As for anyone peeved about removal of No Kidding!, note that it is explcitly discussed and linked within the article; I still say it's not properly childfree though. --Belg4mit 16:52, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

A couple of dead links to watch out for:

• worldchildfree-dot-org and related domains (one of the kindervrij sites) are gone and now cybersquatted. Content should be recoverable from waybackmachine.org if we need it.
• knitmeapony no longer hosts a childfree wiki; there is a childfree wiki on nokidding.info but it re-uses none of the content of the previous wikiproject.

VHEMT belongs in "overpopulation" more than in "childfree", but yes an internal link is most appropriate here. --carlb 14:48, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

––––––––

Hello,

I'm French, and I'm looking for French-speaking sites about childfree choice and lifestyle. I didn't find anything really interesting, so i created a Yahoo Group. I'm sorry to adverstise my own group, but I think there are other French-speaking people who seek French-speaking sites about that theme. So my Yahoo Group is : http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/childfree_francophone/ Of course, you can delete this message if you think it's not the right place for it. And sorry for my bad English language...

Mariemarie0000.

OK, je l'ai ajouté à la liste des forums. :)

I believe there is a term «libre d'enfant» that conveys the "childfree" concept en français, but little or nothing in the way of French-language childfree resources. There is a montreal-childfree.org (as a group wanting to start a No Kidding! chapter in Montréal). A search on «libre d'enfant» turns up little of value. --carlb 14:48, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV Statement and GLBT involovement issue

I removed the following statement:

[Gays and lesbians have become advocates for the childree community (particularly those in the United States, who are upset about having to pay the highest taxes for not having children, while they are the least burden on society for not needing schools and other social services children and those with children need, who in turn are receiving significant tax breaks).

I did this because this statement seems both biased and bitter. It definitly could be returned if edited and cited, but I don't have sufficient knowledge to do so. Thanks in advance to any Wikipedian who does so. Emmett5 03:49, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry to section nap but seeing as you raised an NPOV issue over the involvement of GLBTs in the CF movement, I thought I'd raise the wider issue of the statement in the "Etymology and Uses" section that reads that:

"today, gays and lesbians are not uncommon in childfree groups. In fact, in many areas, they are becoming the dominant voice amongst childfree groups"

I'm glad to see that there's a "citation needed" stamp as this strikes me as a really odd thing to say and it's potentially false. It's undeniable that the GLBT as childless households are affected by the same issues as the CF but GLBT organisations don't campaign on CF issues because they're more concerned with getting legal equality with straights in matters of marriage and adoption, never mind the whole homophobia and oppression thing. So I think we need to be REALLY careful when talking about GLBT involvement because as far as I know, the GLBT lobby hasn't ever thrown it's weight behind the CF movement.

It's possible that individual CF groups have a large gay presence and even a gay leadership but if so which ones? are there any GLBT groups that campaign on CF issues? If they did would they even be part of the CF movement or would they simply be people affected by the same issues as the CF but aren't actually CF by choice like people whose kids have left home or people who are childless?

So I'm going to edit that sentence out and if it's going to go back in I'd like to see it fleshed out and maybe made the subject of another section rather than just asserted blindly. --Mr. Analytical 21:10, 1 August 2006 (UTC)--Mr. Analytical 21:10, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Childfree slang

Removing "usenet" section. "Breeder (slang)" was originally a mild/humourous pejorative used by gay folks in reference to straight folks.

I thought "sprog" was a normal piece of British slang for any "kid"? --Quiddity 09:30, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

It is indeed. In any case, I was under the impression that "crotchfruit" was the Childfree term of choice. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.15.231.112 (talk • contribs) .

Ha! -Quiddity

I understand why you took out the original slang list--because you had a link to another such list. Since the link has been removed, why can't the list go back in? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.5.195.69 (talk • contribs) .

It was slimmed down for that reason, but it was subsequently completely removed because it lacked encyclopedic value. It shouldn't be re-inserted.ALR 08:28, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

The list (actually, a few lists) exists elsewhere, so it should be linked. --carlb 15:03, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Referencing

Few of the 'reasons for a CF lifestyle' have any form of justification. It would be useful if they could be referenced to something independent. to this end I'm going to request citations for each of them.ALR 16:05, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

The Gov't and taxes section should mention that it can go both ways. Yes, the childfree do tend to get taxed for services they do not use *directly* i.e; public education (but really we all benefit from educated peers and citizenry). On the other hand, there are communities whom discourage some forms of construction to avoid an influx of families and their greater draw on services. This is similar to the tightrope cities must walk between even low service consumption/high revenue generation of businesses vs. a resident population. --Belg4mit 00:11, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, we don't all benefit from that educated citizenry if the "brain drain" (where we pay to educate and train people only to have them emigrate abroad after gaining experience) continues. There are countries (the US being a notable example) that don't want to sink money into universities except for the rich or those willing to take on mountains of debt, and other countries are expected to subsidise this by exporting trained people? --carlb 14:59, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Weasel Words and NPOV/Citations

This whole article has NPOV problems, and needs to have a go over. There is a lot of weasel wording. I replaced the individual fact tags with a section header for the motivation section, as it's much better for drawing attention of other editors. Athryn 04:39, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Removed them. The language of the page is highly qualified as it is. The motivations section talks about "reasons cited" and the reasons cited are clearly cited by the childfree. The page is, admittedly, written in a style that discusses how the childfree see themselves but A) I think that this is clearly implied and B) if you want to suggest a new direction for the page then I would think it was good etiquette to make a start on the change of direction yourself or start a wider debate. Mr. Analytical 20:18, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

And those "reasons cited" are not cited. Regardless of whether or not you and I know that these are things someone who is childfree may mention when giving a reason for their stance, that does not mean it is simple common sense and does not need citations.

Furthermore, with the exception of the Religion topic within the Controversy section, hardly anything is cited. Where are the statistics that show beyond a shadow of a doubt that people who are childfree "are active in community volunteerism"? Or that they "assist in providing tuition assistance to nieces and nephews seeking higher education or specialized training in an area of interest or talent (music, swimming, acting, or horseback riding lessons, for example)"? I see nothing which backs these claims up.

I am placing the POV tag back. If you disagree, then I recommend that you invest time in searching for legitimate citations for claims such as these. If you want some middle ground, I at least want to see a {{Unreferencedsect}} tag placed in the Controversy section, since it really does not cite references or sources for a majority of the section. Resident Lune 17:09, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the Weasel Words header ought to be removed as the fishy(est) section already has a neutrality/accuracy banner. --Belg4mit 16:14, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the Weasel Words needs to stay because it tells passerby editors (like me) exactly what needs doing without them having to delve to deeply to see. The Motivation section of this article seriously needs complete references - soon - or to be removed. I will give it a while longer before regretfully doing that. CyberAnth 09:26, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

There aren't really any Weasel Words in this entry - I'm going to remover the tag. Hmoul 04:55, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Economic issues

What are the economic factors involved, is what I'm curious about. I'll note that none of those advocating "childfree" lifestyle choices (links from here primarily) ever actually discuss in any depth the economic factors involved and generally display a lack of inter-generational awareness that I would describe as pure selfishness. What, precisely, goes into raising, educating, training, and maintaining a human? How much production does that human return to its parents, relatives, government, and society? How many productive years does a human have, and are those enough to, in essence, pay for, that which they have consumed over their lifetimes? Is it even possible to pay that back other than by replacing yourself with a child of your own unless you manage to produce taxes, goods, or services far in excess of the norm?

Pure economic factors aren't the only things to consider: when the childless are aged and infirm, who do they think is going to care for them? Are there going to be enough nurses, doctors, homecare specialists, etc to ensure a simple, minimum standard of living? When it comes down to it, who do these people think the next generation is going to show loyalty to? The zealously "childfree," or their own parents?

In terms of balance, I suppose it's easy to see where ZPG people get their ideas. Still, why must educated, intelligent people shoulder the responsibility to achieve ZPG? What kind of long-term damage can be expected if these intelligent, educated people become a scarcity? Isn't a population of permanent class division with no upward mobility one of the primary results that an educated middle class becomes a buffer for? Do we have nothing but a permanent ruling class to look forward to while all these smart people decide to commit genetic suicide? Ah well. Kothog 05:37, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd suggest there are a couple of significant flaws in your arguments although I note that there doesn't appear to be a rigorous analysis of the economic influences available at this time.

If the cost of raising an individual cannot be compensated through the consequential working life of the individual then I don't see how adding a second individual into the system to continue contributing achieves a net increase in economic value. The second generation more than doubles the economic credit liability and if one individual can't compensate their own costs then the second generation isn't going to be able to contribute half of that credit. Given that we are globally achieving economic grwoth then the thesis you propose isn't sound. As to the CF contributing to a higher than average level, that should be self evident. With a greater net disposable income in relation to individuals with the same gross income then clearly they are capable of contributing a greater degree of economic value.

I'd agree that pure monetary value issues aren't the only thing to consider, the various professions you cite are employed to provide a service. It appears that you are conflating CF and VHE, which is not an intellectually legitimate comparison.

The points in your latter paragraph are interesting, and do appear to be influenced by rather outdated anthropology. The children of educated, intelligent people need not be themselves intelligent although they may be well educated. Equally the children of those who are not either educated or intelligent may themselves be well educated and/ or intelligent. Whilst nurture and nature are related, it need not be inferred that nature prevents nurture in an appropriate direction.

I'm not convinced that you were actually making a point with this post but would address one issue about citations, the majority of reasoning I've seen from the CF, ranging from mild CF to rabid anti children, are in places that don't meet the requirements for citation in wikipedia. Discussion fora etc, there are some academic works out there, but I don't have access to them.ALR 16:48, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I do not mean to imply that I am an expert, nor even particularly versed in sociology nor anthropology. Rather, I find the lack of an economic or even an overall _impact_ argument for CF-types conspicuous. Also, close persons to me (who are in fact degreed in said humanities) have insisted after multi-year University-level studies that childless humans tend to consume more resources than they return to the system they live in; I vaguely recall something about children looking after their own parents later in life being a significant factor in that, but I confess my memory is unfortunately just that: vague.

So, by "debt" I do not mean to include purely financial debt. I mean debt in the form of services, productivity, cultural contributions, and other intangibles as well as financial, though it's obvious you understood that too. Still, for just the purely monetary, I wonder what the threshold of lifetime income is where they are no longer a net burden on society, and, whether there is a kind of deferred debtload which their children take on during their own productive years.

I have no particular opinion which I feel qualified to adequately defend (hence my addition to the Talk page rather than fiddling around in the actual article;) rather, I'm trying to point out what I perceive as flaws in the completeness of the discussion in order to help bring any debate to a fuller fruition.

Global economic growth does not necessarily contradict the idea of a CF generating a debt unpaid. My suggestion was that child-less people tend to be a net burden while those genetic lines that persist with overlapping productivities are not net burdens because the productivity does not end with a final decade or two of mostly drain. I currently think the world's current population growth assures that productivity continues unabated. Kothog 10:50, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

The problem with that statement is that you obviously have a personal bias against the CF concept (just as I obviously have one in favor of it, or I would not likely have bothered to raise the point). You lead off by saying you are not versed in it, and then go on to bring facts/points up that you admit you did not study and are not fluent in. As, I again point out, neither am I (well, at least not those particular studies). But even without the studies you mention being cited, I can still spot two flaws in the first paragraph, the first being that a CF person consumes more resources than one raising a family while contributing less. It's flatly improbable (and contradicted by most of the linked research in this article) that people with no kids will purchase more suburban sprawl-type homes, larger gas-consuming vehicles, drive on fewer errands, purchase less textiles and so on when compared to their counterparts. The second flaw is the age-old "who will care for the CF people" argument, which fails the logic test because it is based on an unproven assumption that CF people will need this service later in life. It is increasingly rare in at least one culture (American) for elderly people to live in the homes of their offspring at the end of their lives. It's an argument that is brought up by anti-CFers often, but never, ever attributed to any non-biased recent (within the last, oh, two decades or so) study.

Lastly, as far as the debt argument you make, as the article mentions, CFers are more prone to going into public service, working for nonprofits (they don't have to worry about paying for braces, school clothes, extra bedrooms for the kids, etc. so they can afford to chase those lower-paying jobs) and other things that one could say balance the karmic debt more than parent who is working as a, oh, car salesman or something. CFers pride themselves on NOT being a "net burden to society," due to their not consuming tax dollars to educate their children, the industrial waste to produce resources for the children, etc. They also often pride themselves on not interfering with other people on a daily basis, such as parents do by bringing crying children into restaurants. CFers work a 40 hour week like parents, but pay far more in taxes, and use far less of society's resources. As for cultural contributions, look through any college "required reading" list and see how many authors, sculptors, inventors and so on were non-parents. You bring up genetic lines, but a) overlapping these generations has no average effect on anything, you don't get credit for working an extra 20 years because your kids are at the factory when you retire. And b) CFers are not (generally) opposed to stable, productive, normal families, but the types of families that appear on Jerry Springer.

The main difference between the CF and pro-reproduction philosophers is that CF people see the tens of thousands of "families" that fit the negative stereotypes (single mothers who can't provide, drug addicts who raise damaged children, violent households, genetically unhealthy people passing on damaged genes, etc,) and say "I don't want to make things worse by adding to this," where pro-reproduction people look at the tens of thousands of stereotypical "Leave it to Beaver" families and say "I want to make thing better by adding to this."

Enough about my personal bias though, this is more about what should be done about this article. The fact is, encyclopedias explain the world to people. Articles on Nazis, malaria, meteors hitting the earth, psychotic episodes and 9/11 are not meant to promote those things. They explain them. The article on CF exists to explain what CF is, why it exists, what their motivations are and what they have to back it up. Several people on this talk page have tried to say this article is "bad" because they disagree with the philosophy, or the conclusions of it's adherents (this part not directed at the entry above mine, but at some several steps up the ladder). I disagree with Stalin's policy of mass-murdering the Polish, but the world needs an article that tells us why it happened, what his motivations were, what reasoning he had to back it up, and so forth. Other people found Stalin's acts entirely correct. Quiverfull people find us CF people to be pretty vile, as many of us CFers find them. That in no way negates the need for these articles, or the accuracy of the cited research. Davethehorrible 02:22, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A very poor article

This article pretty much sucks but could be great. Is there not anyone with time (unlike me) who could make it better? Here are just a few of the sources I found:

• Voluntarily Childfree Women: Experiences and Counseling Considerations. By: Mollen, Debra. Journal of Mental Health Counseling, Jul2006, Vol. 28 Issue 3, p269-282, 14p; (AN 21639016)
• Why won't any doctor let me get my tubes tied? By: Crispin, Jessa. Jane, May2006, Vol. 10 Issue 4, p150-150, 2p, 1c; (AN 20775945)
• Childfree by choice. By: Stobert, Susan; Kemeny, Anna. Canadian Social Trends, Summer2003 Issue 69, p7, 4p; (AN 10104919)
• Throwing the Baby Out with the Bathwater: Childfree Advocates and the Rhetoric of Choice. By: Taylor, Erin N.. Women & Politics, 2003, Vol. 24 Issue 4, p49, 27p; (AN 9864242)
• Childfree in Toyland. By: Clausen, Christopher. American Scholar, Winter2002, Vol. 71 Issue 1, p111, 11p; (AN 6390936)
• The Chosen Lives of Childfree Men (Book). By: Greenhalgh, Susan. Population & Development Review, Dec99, Vol. 25 Issue 4, p817-818, 2p; (AN 2830198)
• The Chosen Lives of Childfree Men (Book Review). By: Knodel, John. Gender Issues, Winter2001, Vol. 19 Issue 1; (AN 5068516)
• Childfree and Sterilised (Book Review). By: Savage, Wendy. BMJ: British Medical Journal, 02/05/2000, Vol. 320 Issue 7231, p387, 1/2p; (AN 2809262)
• Child-free with an attitude. By: Fost, Dan. American Demographics, Apr96, Vol. 18 Issue 4, p15, 2p, 1 graph; (AN 9604020009)

CyberAnth 09:31, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

There are plenty of sources, here's a bibliography and list of resources to get you started. ;) --carlb 15:02, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I just wanted to add that I agree with the article not being too great. My main gripe is that the "controveries" section is HUGE whereas the polar opposite "movement" Quiverfull barely has a mention of controveries. That seems politically lop-sided on the issue. Overpopulation is not even mentioned in the Quiverfull page, although that belongs on the Quiverful talk page, but I'm just pointing that out here. Not a wikipedia expert, but I just feel this page might be slightly biased. Thx1200 (talk) 23:11, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merger proposed (Kidding Aside)

[edit] US-centric and statistics section

For one thing, this article does a poor job of presenting a global view. Is this because the issue isn't global (ie., is this movement a US-only thing), or is this just poor research?

Additionally, the racial statistics really ought to go. Hispanic women don't have more children because they're somehow genetically predisposed to it. They have more children because in America, they're poorer and (due to poverty) less well-educated than other women (see the statistic on education and birth rates), and because Hispanic culture typically involves Catholicism and its proscriptions on birth control. The statistic is racist and misleading.

The following bullet point, which mentions education, occupation, income, etc., is much more appropriate.

Also, the terms "childless" and "childfree" are used throughout the section, apparently at random. Since this very article goes out of its way to mention how both terms are considered pejorative by opposing camps, I propose we use the term "without children", which implies neither desire nor the lack of it. Kasreyn 04:00, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the reference to racial birth rates. Extricating that data from, and correcting for, the education and income disparities enforced by society's racial prejudices, is not possible in an article of this size and scope. Therefore this claim can only mislead. Kasreyn 04:04, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it is too US-Centric. I might be able to recruit some Aussie or British childfree people to come edit, but as far as I know there are not that many 'childfree' communities outside of these three countries. White countries such as Spain, Italy, and Japan have very low birthrates (and hence a high presence of childless people) I believe that there is very little self-identification as childfree, no real organization or community, and hence not a lot of sources to draw on for content.

That being said, this is in need of an Aussie editor, since that country is in the forefront of academic research on the Childfree -Lciaccio (talk) 01:26, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Overemphasis on Christian views

I snipped a detailed examination of a whole bunch of bible verses from the article; The "religion" section was already too Christian-centric. I think we should first find out what a few other religions' attitudes are towards self-imposed childlessness before we do a whole exegesis on the Christian attitudes to the matter. --Slashme 13:38, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Political activism

I marked the "Political activism" section with OR as it makes speculations at several points without pointing to sources (e.g., "This discontent is not widespread among childfree people, and as such does not translate into a unified political vision."). This may very well be the case, but I'd like to see something to back it up.  :)

[Later:] Doh, I forgot to sign this; I haven't been actively editing in awhile now. — Korpios (talk) 03:46, 19 February 2008 (UTC)